Carmen basilio vs. Arturo Gotti

Borinken25 · Post by **Borinken25** » 29 Dec 2005, 20:44

Really hard for me to pick a winner here because they both were fearless in the ring. I have done some research on this and it appears that basilio won five times best fight of the year by the ring magazine. Who will win? any info would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 29 Dec 2005, 21:12

Hmmm, this doesn't seem like much of a matchup. Basilio is arguably a top 20 all-time WW, while Gatti is barely a top 20 active WW during a period of very dilluted talent.

Basilio turns his face into hamburger before winning by TKO in the 5th.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 30 Dec 2005, 09:40

Decagon wrote:
The Great John L wrote:Hmmm, this doesn't seem like much of a matchup. Basilio is arguably a top 20 all-time WW, while Gatti is barely a top 20 active WW during a period of very dilluted talent.

Basilio turns his face into hamburger before winning by TKO in the 5th.
I love you.

I think I have a stalker.

Borinken25 · Post by **Borinken25** » 30 Dec 2005, 21:40

The Great John L wrote:Hmmm, this doesn't seem like much of a matchup. Basilio is arguably a top 20 all-time WW, while Gatti is barely a top 20 active WW during a period of very dilluted talent.

Basilio turns his face into hamburger before winning by TKO in the 5th.

Thanks for the info. I always believe that Gatti only talent was his heart. At best he is a C fighter and I have seen Basilio record that is impressive, but never seen any film of his fights and just for his record alone can really judge him as a fighter, because records can be deceiving just look at John Ruiz records, three times heavy weight champion but in reality a bum of major proportions.

iceman21287 · Post by **iceman21287** » 31 Dec 2005, 04:46

The Great John L wrote:Hmmm, this doesn't seem like much of a matchup. Basilio is arguably a top 20 all-time WW, while Gatti is barely a top 20 active WW during a period of very dilluted talent.

Basilio turns his face into hamburger before winning by TKO in the 5th.

You think the WW division is in a period of diluted talent? With guys like Judah, Mayweather, Cotto, Hatton, Spinks, Tszyu, Freitas, Margarito and young guys like Joel Julio about to hit the big scene?

I don't disagree with about the result of the Basilio/Gatti fight, but I do think you underrate the WW division.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 31 Dec 2005, 08:30

iceman21287 wrote:
The Great John L wrote:Hmmm, this doesn't seem like much of a matchup. Basilio is arguably a top 20 all-time WW, while Gatti is barely a top 20 active WW during a period of very dilluted talent.

Basilio turns his face into hamburger before winning by TKO in the 5th.
You think the WW division is in a period of diluted talent? With guys like Judah, Mayweather, Cotto, Hatton, Spinks, Tszyu, Freitas, Margarito and young guys like Joel Julio about to hit the big scene?

I don't disagree with about the result of the Basilio/Gatti fight, but I do think you underrate the WW division.

Boxing has been a rather rapid decline for the entire 35+ years that I have been a fan. It's unfortunate to those of us who love the sport, but every year we lose the boxing gyms, trainers and fighters that are needed for boxing to not just grow but to simply survive. When I was in jr high in Barberton, Ohio (suburb of Akron) boxing was actually taught as part of gym class. There were also 6-8 decent gyms in the greater Akron area each with competent trainers. The annual Akron Golden Gloves tournament was a huge deal drawing close to 2 thousand people for three nights of competition. Today, there is no GG in Akron. The very few fighters in in Akron area must fight in the greater Cleveland tournament, which even though it is now all of NE Ohio it is much smaller than the Akron tournament of 35 years ago.

Today there is only one boxing gym in Akron. Just look around in the nearest mid to large size US city and see how many gyms there are. I think the sport is probably healthier in other parts of the world, it is clearly near death in the US.

While we do still get some great fighters, in general, the talent pool is MUCH shallower than it used to be. There are far fewer fighters, gyms and trainers. Using common sense, you have to ask yourself how can the fighters be better when there are almost no gyms and trainers, and very few people even participating in the sport?

theone · Post by **theone** » 31 Dec 2005, 10:27

While we do still get some great fighters, in general, the talent pool is MUCH shallower than it used to be. There are far fewer fighters, gyms and trainers. Using common sense, you have to ask yourself how can the fighters be better when there are almost no gyms and trainers, and very few people even participating in the sport?

You could look at it another way also. Because there are so fewer gyms, trainers etc, the boxing scene probably isnt as saturated with b and c level fighters. The cream always rises to the top, and eventually talented, gifted fighters like Mayweather, Judah, and Hatton, who would have have been competitive in almost every era, will eventually be produced.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 31 Dec 2005, 15:43

theone wrote:
While we do still get some great fighters, in general, the talent pool is MUCH shallower than it used to be. There are far fewer fighters, gyms and trainers. Using common sense, you have to ask yourself how can the fighters be better when there are almost no gyms and trainers, and very few people even participating in the sport?
You could look at it another way also. Because there are so fewer gyms, trainers etc, the boxing scene probably isnt as saturated with b and c level fighters. The cream always rises to the top, and eventually talented, gifted fighters like Mayweather, Judah, and Hatton, who would have have been competitive in almost every era, will eventually be produced.

Interesting theory, but the problem is that so few ever try boxing anymore that the "cream" never gets in the glass. I remember in gym class there was one guy that put the gloves on and after about 30 seconds he really started handling the guy he was fighting, so the teacher stepped in and stopped the contest. He also took the kid to a local gym where he started in a decent amatuer program and then went on to become a half way decent pro. Today, the same kid would have probably never put on the gloves and would never been exposed to boxing.

Yes, you are correct that the top fighters of today could most likely be competitive in any era. I have never refuted this in any post, and actually regard Ali as the best HW, Duran as one of the top 3 or 4 LW, Monzon as a top 5, etc. I seem to be getting accused of making no sense by a few posters. However the argument you pose is pretty ridiculous. Yes, there will be top fighters produced, but clearly there will be significantly less produced than in the past when boxing was actually a popular sport with gyms and trainers in just about every city in the country. And how can fighters learn if there are very few "B and C" level fighters for them to fight on the way up? Just about every poster complains about the level of competition for many young fighters, but the fact is that there aren't many good club fighters to push a young fighter on the way up.

Maybe you could you explain where the fighters are supposed to come from if there are virtually no gyms and no trainers in most US cities? For every PBF and Zab Judah there are probably 5 or 10 like them that have never and will never lace on a pair of gloves. Have you been a boxing fan for long? Do you understand that boxing is not a major sport anymore? Prior to about 1950 there were really only 2 sports that a kid in the US could make a good living -- baseball and boxing. Now boxing is a minor sport, relegated to ESPN 2. Boxing was still quite popular in the 70's and even a bit in the 80's, but it has now become a minor sport.

Do you attend many live fight cards? Are there even any live fight cards in your community? Most likely unless you live in or near a major US city, it's pretty hard to find a boxing match to attend -- even amatuer cards.

It's fine to think that what we have now is better, and I would dearly love to see the sport of boxing healthy and growing in the US, but that's not the case. And it makes absolutely no sense to say that there are better fighters produced when there are so few gyms and even fewer trainers. If a guy can't make a living in a sport, then he'll simply try something else. And since there are so few ways to make a living in boxing, very few even consider it as a career. Hell, I guess even the Kronk gym has to be subsidized by the governement to stay in business.

Borinken25 · Post by **Borinken25** » 31 Dec 2005, 20:03

I have to agree with the The great john because granted some very good fighters in the WW division but we still have to see if they meet in the ring. PFB and Judah supposedly sign but we have to wait and see if they actually meet? Because of some many alphabet soup titles sometimes the best ones never fight as opposed when Basilio's era they were fighting for pride not money like now. Now is who can get me the most money instead of how great I can be by fighting the best.