Prime Frazier vs Prime Foreman

[Broomhall]

As I said I would call the 5th and early round in a 12 round fight-but like so many things in boxing-just an opinion-no need to start crying about it

There is no evidence to indicate anything else-yours in an opinion-like mine-the only difference being is that as in this case your opinion would be wrong.[/quote]
He was not fit. You also forgot to mention he was fat, and untrained. I don't know if my opinion is right or wrong about the outcome of the fight and probably will never know. But I know for a fact Frazier was never the same after the FOTC. Start a poll. "Was Frazier prime in 1973?"[/quote]

He WASNT fat. He was 214 and had been higher than that in previous fights. So only 9lbs above his best weight of around 205 Reports from his camp prior to the fight report he was training well, and was confident.

Because someone trained badly or was over confident does not make them past it. He was in good form after the so called FOTC. I think the Foreman fight destroyed his confidence and maybe not the same after that loss, but he would have been on a high after the Ali win.

You DONT know for a fact Frazier was never the same. In YOUR opinion he was never the same and this is a very different thing. As REXOB says wisely " I guess we will never know"[/quote]
The Frazier that fought Foreman in `73 had slipped about 20-25%. As already noted he had lost his drive and focus on boxing. Joe had started a singing band and was enjoying life outside of boxing a little more. His managers and family were in his ear about retiring as undefeated Heavyweight Champion after beating Ali. That coudnt have helped.

With that he gained some weight and Joe also underestimated Foreman as well. Nobody really knew just what a powerhouse George Foreman was until after that fight.

After he lost his title Joe Frazier did come close to regaining his form. It took awhile. By `74 had looked really good agiainst Quarry, Ellis and then Ali in Manila. He almost won the title back.

Even with all that Joe Frazier`s style was never suited for longevity. He burned brightly though when he was on.
Rexob was referring to the peak foreman vs peak frazier fight.
He just lost all his motivation. That Frazier was definitely overweight. If you can't see the difference between a 1973 Frazier and The Fotc Frazier, I simply don't know where to begin.[/quote]

So if I understand you Frazier was 25% past his best after Ali, but zomehow after getting KO'd by Foreman he managed to get to nearly back to his best-perhaps only 10% or maybe 12.5% past his prime?....what is he? a rechargeable battery?

He was lighter against Foreman than he was against Stander and Daniels and only 9lbs heavier than when he fought Ali, and 5lbs heavier than when he fought against foster-so fat? I dont think so.

[abdelfadeeli]

As I said I would call the 5th and early round in a 12 round fight-but like so many things in boxing-just an opinion-no need to start crying about it

There is no evidence to indicate anything else-yours in an opinion-like mine-the only difference being is that as in this case your opinion would be wrong.

He was not fit. You also forgot to mention he was fat, and untrained. I don't know if my opinion is right or wrong about the outcome of the fight and probably will never know. But I know for a fact Frazier was never the same after the FOTC. Start a poll. "Was Frazier prime in 1973?"[/quote]

He WASNT fat. He was 214 and had been higher than that in previous fights. So only 9lbs above his best weight of around 205 Reports from his camp prior to the fight report he was training well, and was confident.

Because someone trained badly or was over confident does not make them past it. He was in good form after the so called FOTC. I think the Foreman fight destroyed his confidence and maybe not the same after that loss, but he would have been on a high after the Ali win.

You DONT know for a fact Frazier was never the same. In YOUR opinion he was never the same and this is a very different thing. As REXOB says wisely " I guess we will never know"[/quote]
The Frazier that fought Foreman in `73 had slipped about 20-25%. As already noted he had lost his drive and focus on boxing. Joe had started a singing band and was enjoying life outside of boxing a little more. His managers and family were in his ear about retiring as undefeated Heavyweight Champion after beating Ali. That coudnt have helped.

With that he gained some weight and Joe also underestimated Foreman as well. Nobody really knew just what a powerhouse George Foreman was until after that fight.

After he lost his title Joe Frazier did come close to regaining his form. It took awhile. By `74 had looked really good agiainst Quarry, Ellis and then Ali in Manila. He almost won the title back.

Even with all that Joe Frazier`s style was never suited for longevity. He burned brightly though when he was on.
Rexob was referring to the peak foreman vs peak frazier fight.
He just lost all his motivation. That Frazier was definitely overweight. If you can't see the difference between a 1973 Frazier and The Fotc Frazier, I simply don't know where to begin.[/quote]

So if I understand you Frazier was 25% past his best after Ali, but zomehow after getting KO'd by Foreman he managed to get to nearly back to his best-perhaps only 10% or maybe 12.5% past his prime?....what is he? a rechargeable battery?

He was lighter against Foreman than he was against Stander and Daniels and only 9lbs heavier than when he fought Ali, and 5lbs heavier than when he fought against foster-so fat? I dont think so.[/quote]
The scale for the foster-frazier was likely 4-5 pounds off according to the commentators.

[Broomhall]

oh for goodness sake

[abdelfadeeli]

oh for goodness sake

I see that you've ignored all of my points.

[abdelfadeeli]

Joe was shot for Foreman II, progressively arthritic, nearly 25 pounds above his peak weight, wearing a contact lens which got knocked out, yet lasted longer on his feet than any defeated opponent of George's in his wins between Peralta II and Jimmy Young. That gets overlooked. Lyle got dropped twice in the fourth, while Pires, although never knocked off his feet, did not answer the bell for round five. Old, arthritic, overweight and blind Joe Frazier is the ONLY one of Foreman's defeated opponents between Peralta II and Young to answer the bell for round five w/out having yet been dropped in the match.

[abdelfadeeli]

It makes no difference Abdel-early rounds, middle rounds, late rounds, so called "prime" frazier, past his prime frazier-Foreman whupped a young, fit and confident Frazier, and would do so on every occasion they fought.

As I said I would call the 5th and early round in a 12 round fight-but like so many things in boxing-just an opinion-no need to start crying about it

There is no evidence to indicate anything else-yours in an opinion-like mine-the only difference being is that as in this case your opinion would be wrong.

I'm not crying. I'm just annoyed I spent so much time on a prat like you.

[Broomhall]

It makes no difference Abdel-early rounds, middle rounds, late rounds, so called "prime" frazier, past his prime frazier-Foreman whupped a young, fit and confident Frazier, and would do so on every occasion they fought.

As I said I would call the 5th and early round in a 12 round fight-but like so many things in boxing-just an opinion-no need to start crying about it

There is no evidence to indicate anything else-yours in an opinion-like mine-the only difference being is that as in this case your opinion would be wrong.

I'm not crying. I'm just annoyed I spent so much time on a prat like you.

I enjoyed every moment of pulling your string

I think the following quote could be written for you

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”
― Harlan Ellison

[abdelfadeeli]

Ultimately I think even prime Frazier took a little too long to get going so Foreman would always be difficult early for Frazier since George started so fast early on...but I think Prime Frazier had more tools to deal with a Foreman who was oh so wide open.

Frazier at his best deserves to start favourite. Remember the odds makers made Frazier Favorite based on his prime. They missed how far he'd slipped. They felt, rightly in my opinion, that prime Frazier was a better fighter than George Foreman had looked against Ted Gullick in his most recent televised fight. That was the comparison they had to go on when they set the odds.

People are too sold on Foreman winning against any version of Frazier but the crucial point I always make is that when they fought Frazier's defense was severely reduced by the fact that he could not land at a certain range anymore and he could not see what was coming in time. Frazier had lost something. He was rocked by both Daniels and Stander.

Prime for prime it's a more even fight. It could even be the difference between Foreman landing first or not. And that's a big difference. Frazier would be able to meet Foreman on he way in. The way he could time Ali and land at distance, even beat ALi to the punch at times, was an asset missing from Frazier when be did meet George. The fact is it won't be all one way traffic and that will reduce what Foreman can do. Frazier still won't entirely fend off Foreman though but I think he lands some serious fireworks before Foreman gets going.

[Broomhall]

Ultimately I think even prime Frazier took a little too long to get going so Foreman would always be difficult early for Frazier since George started so fast early on...but I think Prime Frazier had more tools to deal with a Foreman who was oh so wide open.

Frazier at his best deserves to start favourite. Remember the odds makers made Frazier Favorite based on his prime. They missed how far he'd slipped. They felt, rightly in my opinion, that prime Frazier was a better fighter than George Foreman had looked against Ted Gullick in his most recent televised fight. That was the comparison they had to go on when they set the odds.

People are too sold on Foreman winning against any version of Frazier but the crucial point I always make is that when they fought Frazier's defense was severely reduced by the fact that he could not land at a certain range anymore and he could not see what was coming in time. Frazier had lost something. He was rocked by both Daniels and Stander.

Prime for prime it's a more even fight. It could even be the difference between Foreman landing first or not. And that's a big difference. Frazier would be able to meet Foreman on he way in. The way he could time Ali and land at distance, even beat ALi to the punch at times, was an asset missing from Frazier when be did meet George. The fact is it won't be all one way traffic and that will reduce what Foreman can do. Frazier still won't entirely fend off Foreman though but I think he lands some serious fireworks before Foreman gets going.

Just nonsense. Foreman beats Frazier every time. He beat Frazier at the top of his game. Coming off the best form and win of his career.

[abdelfadeeli]

Ultimately I think even prime Frazier took a little too long to get going so Foreman would always be difficult early for Frazier since George started so fast early on...but I think Prime Frazier had more tools to deal with a Foreman who was oh so wide open.

Frazier at his best deserves to start favourite. Remember the odds makers made Frazier Favorite based on his prime. They missed how far he'd slipped. They felt, rightly in my opinion, that prime Frazier was a better fighter than George Foreman had looked against Ted Gullick in his most recent televised fight. That was the comparison they had to go on when they set the odds.

People are too sold on Foreman winning against any version of Frazier but the crucial point I always make is that when they fought Frazier's defense was severely reduced by the fact that he could not land at a certain range anymore and he could not see what was coming in time. Frazier had lost something. He was rocked by both Daniels and Stander.

Prime for prime it's a more even fight. It could even be the difference between Foreman landing first or not. And that's a big difference. Frazier would be able to meet Foreman on he way in. The way he could time Ali and land at distance, even beat ALi to the punch at times, was an asset missing from Frazier when be did meet George. The fact is it won't be all one way traffic and that will reduce what Foreman can do. Frazier still won't entirely fend off Foreman though but I think he lands some serious fireworks before Foreman gets going.

Just nonsense. Foreman beats Frazier every time. He beat Frazier at the top of his game. Coming off the best form and win of his career.

That's bullshit. Foreman wouldn't win every time if they fought 100 times. Neither would Frazier.

[Broomhall]

Ultimately I think even prime Frazier took a little too long to get going so Foreman would always be difficult early for Frazier since George started so fast early on...but I think Prime Frazier had more tools to deal with a Foreman who was oh so wide open.

Frazier at his best deserves to start favourite. Remember the odds makers made Frazier Favorite based on his prime. They missed how far he'd slipped. They felt, rightly in my opinion, that prime Frazier was a better fighter than George Foreman had looked against Ted Gullick in his most recent televised fight. That was the comparison they had to go on when they set the odds.

People are too sold on Foreman winning against any version of Frazier but the crucial point I always make is that when they fought Frazier's defense was severely reduced by the fact that he could not land at a certain range anymore and he could not see what was coming in time. Frazier had lost something. He was rocked by both Daniels and Stander.

Prime for prime it's a more even fight. It could even be the difference between Foreman landing first or not. And that's a big difference. Frazier would be able to meet Foreman on he way in. The way he could time Ali and land at distance, even beat ALi to the punch at times, was an asset missing from Frazier when be did meet George. The fact is it won't be all one way traffic and that will reduce what Foreman can do. Frazier still won't entirely fend off Foreman though but I think he lands some serious fireworks before Foreman gets going.

Just nonsense. Foreman beats Frazier every time. He beat Frazier at the top of his game. Coming off the best form and win of his career.

That's bullshit. Foreman wouldn't win every time if they fought 100 times. Neither would Frazier.

Yeah he does. C'mon man give it up, you just making yourself look bad.

[abdelfadeeli]

Yeah he does. C'mon man give it up, you just making yourself look bad.

Yes i'm the one making myself look bad. I'm the one who thinks Frazier was prime in 1973. I'm the one who thinks Frazier was fit for the FOTC.
Probably it's best if you don't chose, for some unknowable reason, to persistently quote my posts when you are speaking very generally and in no way engaging with those posts. There is something masochistic about the way you clamor for my attention despite the fact that you know I find you ridiculous, and am bound to tell you so in my reply to you.

[Broomhall]

Yeah he does. C'mon man give it up, you just making yourself look bad.

Yes i'm the one making myself look bad. I'm the one who thinks Frazier was prime in 1973. I'm the one who thinks Frazier was fit for the FOTC.
Probably it's best if you don't chose, for some unknowable reason, to persistently quote my posts when you are speaking very generally and in no way engaging with those posts. There is something masochistic about the way you clamor for my attention despite the fact that you know I find you ridiculous, and am bound to tell you so in my reply to you.

Gotcha again Man

You and I both know I whupped you as bad as Foreman whupped Joe and yet you keep coming back for more

Prime Frazier beat by prime Foreman. EVERY time you know it man.

[abdelfadeeli]

Yeah he does. C'mon man give it up, you just making yourself look bad.

Yes i'm the one making myself look bad. I'm the one who thinks Frazier was prime in 1973. I'm the one who thinks Frazier was fit for the FOTC.
Probably it's best if you don't chose, for some unknowable reason, to persistently quote my posts when you are speaking very generally and in no way engaging with those posts. There is something masochistic about the way you clamor for my attention despite the fact that you know I find you ridiculous, and am bound to tell you so in my reply to you.

Gotcha again Man

You and I both know I whupped you as bad as Foreman whupped Joe and yet you keep coming back for more

Prime Frazier beat by prime Foreman. EVERY time you know it man.

That's your opinion. But you're wrong about Frazier being prime in 1973. You're also wrong about everyone saying he was. "Brash young, George Foreman, a strapping, handsome athlete, destroyed Frazier in less than two rounds Monday night but the observer would like to make one thing loud and clear.
Muhammad Ali had a big hand in the demise of the world heavyweight champion. Without taking, one iota of credit, away from Foreman's electrifying and sensational piece of work, Frazier was not the human howitzer who beat Ali on March, 8, 1971. It was generally agreed by those of us who saw that fight in New York that Frazier took a terrible head beating in slugging his way to a fifteen round decision. And from his sluggish showing Monday night, it was apparent he had never recovered." Source:http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=lH ... %2C1368041
In that source there's much more about Frazier being past prime. So next time, don't say I gave you no evidence. I have given you countless sites of evidence which you deliberately ignore. There's actually a whole section on how Frazier declined after the FOTC.

[abdelfadeeli]

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 84,1098596 Ali himself says Frazier's not the same.

[Broomhall]

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 84,1098596 Ali himself says Frazier's not the same.

Thats just Ali bigging himself up and beating the drum for a Foreman fight.

You got whupped again. Boom!

[abdelfadeeli]

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 84,1098596 Ali himself says Frazier's not the same.

Thats just Ali bigging himself up and beating the drum for a Foreman fight.

You got whupped again. Boom!

If you say so. what about that other guy? What's his reason to lie?

[Broomhall]

Everyone wants to make excuses for backing the wrong horse. Joe was overwhelming favorite for the Foreman fight so what better way to make yourself look better by saying that the wasnt the real Joe Frazier in there...funny how no one was saying that BEFORE the fight....


Boom! whupped again Abdel....

[abdelfadeeli]

Everyone wants to make excuses for backing the wrong horse. Joe was overwhelming favorite for the Foreman fight so what better way to make yourself look better by saying that the wasnt the real Joe Frazier in there...funny how no one was saying that BEFORE the fight....


Boom! whupped again Abdel....

Then how do you explain this? http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=8 ... 76,2571228 and this http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 306,377745 D
So until then, the only one who got "whupped" is you

[Broomhall]

Everyone wants to make excuses for backing the wrong horse. Joe was overwhelming favorite for the Foreman fight so what better way to make yourself look better by saying that the wasnt the real Joe Frazier in there...funny how no one was saying that BEFORE the fight....


Boom! whupped again Abdel....

Then how do you explain this? http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=8 ... 76,2571228 and this http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 306,377745 D
So until then, the only one who got "whupped" is you

Well the first article talks about how Frazier is now back to his peak form, and the second talks about how he has regained his sharpness and "didnt show any signs of permanent injury"

Hoisted on your own petard there Abdel my boy...BOOM! whupped again....

And anyway all this is just you trawling through archives bringing up peoples OPINIONS. There is no quantitative or scientific measure of form available. Every fighter I have ever known who has lost-has usually trotted out "that wasnt the real me in there..."

So in my OPINION Foreman wins everytime over any version of Frazier-I just happen to be right and you are sadly wrong....

[Giancarlo]

Then how do you explain this? http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=8 ... 76,2571228

This article actually supports Broomhall's view that Frazier was in prime condition

"Frazier... has slowly worked his way back into top shape"

Top shape, Abdel.

[abdelfadeeli]

Then how do you explain this? http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=8 ... 76,2571228

This article actually supports Broomhall's view that Frazier was in prime condition

"Frazier... has slowly worked his way back into top shape"

Top shape, Abdel.

I see you've ignored my other articles. You also forgot to mention the fact that the headline was "Frazier Washed up". You also forgot to mention in the article it says" but his last two times in the ring against Ron Stander and Terry Daniels just over a year ago suggested to some people that the champion might be slipping a bit"
It also states "Frazier's stock has fallen"
You seem to have conveniently ignored this to.

[Broomhall]

Then how do you explain this? http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=8 ... 76,2571228

This article actually supports Broomhall's view that Frazier was in prime condition

"Frazier... has slowly worked his way back into top shape"

Top shape, Abdel.

I see you've ignored my other articles. You also forgot to mention the fact that the headline was "Frazier Washed up". You also forgot to mention in the article it says" but his last two times in the ring against Ron Stander and Terry Daniels just over a year ago suggested to some people that the champion might be slipping a bit"
It also states "Frazier's stock has fallen"
You seem to have conveniently ignored this to.

"might be slipping a BIT"

Hardly affirmative proof he was past it. It would be difficult for Frazier to get excited about fighting Stander and Daniels following the Ali fight, but both articles confirm the view that Frazier, although hardly sparkling had worked his way back into prime condition for Foreman.

YOU even said that Frazier had recovered his form and was back to near his best AFTER he fought Foreman-either he is washed up or he isnt-he cant be washed up for one fight, and then be not washed up later on.

C'mon man just give it up.

[abdelfadeeli]

"might be slipping a BIT"

Hardly affirmative proof he was past it. It would be difficult for Frazier to get excited about fighting Stander and Daniels following the Ali fight, but both articles confirm the view that Frazier, although hardly sparkling had worked his way back into prime condition for Foreman.

YOU even said that Frazier had recovered his form and was back to near his best AFTER he fought Foreman-either he is washed up or he isnt-he cant be washed up for one fight, and then be not washed up later on.

C'mon man just give it up.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 60,1973323

[Broomhall]

Everything you are posting argues against your point. It is bizarre.

" I am young and I am strong, so why should I stop fighting? I love it man. There aint nothing greater. Aint nobody around who can take the title from me"

Dose that sound like someone who isnt confident? or feels they are past their best?

The rest of the article is just a typical preview of a fight.

C,mon man. Just leave it. Leave it be and let it go.