Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG HWs?

[magwitch]

Ali
Louis
Marciano
Holmes
Tyson
Lewis
Foreman
Klitschko
Frazier
Johnson
Dempsey
Tunney
Jeffries

I voted 'top 15' but obviously he is a bit higher than that if you make a few quick calculations.

No John L. Sullivan?

(sorry I keep picking on you btw, only I;ve not had time to look through six pages of this yet...) ;;-)

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Ali
Louis
Marciano
Holmes
Tyson
Lewis
Foreman
Klitschko
Frazier
Johnson
Dempsey
Tunney
Jeffries

I voted 'top 15' but obviously he is a bit higher than that if you make a few quick calculations.

you've got George and Joe 2 spaces apart, despite the fact George blasted Frazier....then again, didn't Frazier fight Ali 3 times, winning one and badly hurting him in another? It may not have been three times, I'm not 100% on that.....

but a question I was wondering the other day.......who wins this: a 28-30 yr old Lennox Lewis or the same age George Foreman?? Two huge men. That would have been a fight worth watching!

And also - let's take the winner of that fight ^^^ and fling him in with a prime Brown Bomber. How does Joe Louis do there? Was he quite a good bit smaller than those two?

It was three times and Fraizer had an outstanding record against the heavyweights of that era, including against Ali, but Foreman won the title at the age of 45, 20 odd years after he lost it, the historical significance of this feat changed sports forever in regards what an older athlete could achieve. It is massive.

Again, there is more than one factor when rating fighters other than 'who beat who' or who could beat who - and it is all massively subjective anyway basing on what your own specific criteria are.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Ali
Louis
Marciano
Holmes
Tyson
Lewis
Foreman
Klitschko
Frazier
Johnson
Dempsey
Tunney
Jeffries

I voted 'top 15' but obviously he is a bit higher than that if you make a few quick calculations.

No John L. Sullivan?

(sorry I keep picking on you btw, only I;ve not had time to look through six pages of this yet...) ;;-)

No - he drew the colour line. There are fighters who also did on my list but they are down the pecking order, not fighting great fighters because of their skin colour loses points on the 'fat git all time rankings'.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Who has mentioned about anyone punching harder, Jim? We are talking about fighters being bigger and stronger for which they are, better diets, better knowledge regards training, more advanced supplements (steroids?) and the rest of it means heavyweights are a lot muscular, physically stronger, heavier and leaner than they ever were.

Punching power has nothing to do with strength more than it has to do with timing and speed, Jimmy Wilde had very little muscle but was a supreme KO artist.

At 6ft 6ins and 18 stone - Primo Canera was seen as a circus freak in his day, now he would be bigger than average. [/quote]

If strength doesn't - as you agree - then why mention it? Marciano was able to smash much bigger men than himself to bits, (he once annihilated a 255 lb man, as did Dempsey, whereas Valuev (relatively speaking) couldn't knock the skin of a rice pudding.

I mean if you think about it, what advantage does all that extra size confer, apart from reach - ? Wlad for all his size, can't hold a shot anywhere near as well as Ali or Frazier, or Marciano for that matter, all smaller men.

I think the fixation with size at heavyweight is slightly misleading, what people forget is that once guys get beyond a certain size, they start to become less agile - this isn't a factor below heavyweight, because these are 'normal' sized humans - anyone 6'6" and over is basically pushing the limits of how big a human can be, and still be capable of athleticism - Wlad is fairly nimble for his size, but he's not exactly balletic in there, nor could he ever be. If size was everything, then Valuev would have been unbeatable, but clearly, he wasn't, and he struggled with a very old version of Holyfield, who many thought was robbed of the decision.

Let's not forget, really big men like Wlad, are still a rarity in the division, go look at the top 50 boxrec heavyweights, how many guys are there over 6' 4" - not many - most are the same size as Ali and Foreman - I still believe that 6'3 and 220-240 lbs is as big as any heavyweight needs to be if he has the skills, the problem isn't that Wlad is so much bigger than everyone else - as we shall see if Fury ever fights him - it's that he has better skills, and a better fighting brain, not to mention a wealth of big fight experience.

[cjdragon]

For increased fighter size = increased power, I'm 99% sure I read somewhere that KO % has gone up over the years.
I have no source, but I'm quite sure I read on some statistic boxing site that the average KO % by year went from something like 58% in the 1960's to 68% in the 2010's (in the Heavyweight division).
Don't hold me to that though...I'll see if I can find a source.

Edit- by size I meant weight, not height.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

If strength doesn't - as you agree - then why mention it?

Why would physical strength be important to a heavyweight? answers on a postcard. And remember, no question is too stupid etc.

I should have clarified this a bit better though, KO power, the ability to knock someone out unconcious has nothing to do with strength - that is why there are strawweight KO artists such as Ricardo Lopez.

But if a 240lbs man is hitting you often over 6-8-10 rounds - it will make a difference than a 210 lbs man doing the same. That is why we have weight categories in the first place.

[lefty]

Vitali was neither young nor inexperienced - WTF are you on about? He was 32 years old, with 33 fights behind him - don't just make shite up.

32's still pretty young but admittedly in a sporting sense it's not that young lol

[jamesmcdonnell]

For increased fighter size = increased power, I'm 99% sure I read somewhere that KO % has gone up over the years.
I have no source, but I'm quite sure I read on some statistic boxing site that the average KO % by year went from something like 58% in the 1960's to 68% in the 2010's (in the Heavyweight division).
Don't hold me to that though...I'll see if I can find a source.

Edit- by size I meant weight, not height.

Correlation does not prove causality - there could be other reasons. I'm not being difficult, just pointing out that just between two sets of data intersect, it does not mean that one causes the other.

It's like the thing about red wine protecting against heart disease - they now think that the reason for that correlation, is that people who drink red wine, tend to smoke less and eat better diets than those who don't drink red wine - no doubt because they have a bit more money. Incidentally, wealth is the single biggest predictor for overall health and longevity.

[jamesmcdonnell]

If strength doesn't - as you agree - then why mention it?

Why would physical strength be important to a heavyweight? answers on a postcard. And remember, no question is too stupid etc.

I should have clarified this a bit better though, KO power, the ability to knock someone out unconcious has nothing to do with strength - that is why there are strawweight KO artists such as Ricardo Lopez.

But if a 240lbs man is hitting you often over 6-8-10 rounds - it will make a difference than a 210 lbs man doing the same. That is why we have weight categories in the first place.

You said yourself, that weight has no bearing on punch power though - I'm merely following up your own line of enquiry.

Mike Tyson was 215 lbs in his prime, and arguably hit as hard as anyone in the history of the division - so clearly, weight is not the predominant factor in determining punch power.

Given that bigger men are definitely slower, have more inertia to combat, and are less mobile, I ask again what advantage the extra weight confers?

[Bard of Boxrec]

If strength doesn't - as you agree - then why mention it? Marciano was able to smash much bigger men than himself to bits, (he once annihilated a 255 lb man, as did Dempsey, whereas Valuev (relatively speaking) couldn't knock the skin of a rice pudding.

I mean if you think about it, what advantage does all that extra size confer, apart from reach - ? Wlad for all his size, can't hold a shot anywhere near as well as Ali or Frazier, or Marciano for that matter, all smaller men.

I think the fixation with size at heavyweight is slightly misleading, what people forget is that once guys get beyond a certain size, they start to become less agile - this isn't a factor below heavyweight, because these are 'normal' sized humans - anyone 6'6" and over is basically pushing the limits of how big a human can be, and still be capable of athleticism - Wlad is fairly nimble for his size, but he's not exactly balletic in there, nor could he ever be. If size was everything, then Valuev would have been unbeatable, but clearly, he wasn't, and he struggled with a very old version of Holyfield, who many thought was robbed of the decision.

Let's not forget, really big men like Wlad, are still a rarity in the division, go look at the top 50 boxrec heavyweights, how many guys are there over 6' 4" - not many - most are the same size as Ali and Foreman - I still believe that 6'3 and 220-240 lbs is as big as any heavyweight needs to be if he has the skills, the problem isn't that Wlad is so much bigger than everyone else - as we shall see if Fury ever fights him - it's that he has better skills, and a better fighting brain, not to mention a wealth of big fight experience.

Great post.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

If strength doesn't - as you agree - then why mention it?

Why would physical strength be important to a heavyweight? answers on a postcard. And remember, no question is too stupid etc.

I should have clarified this a bit better though, KO power, the ability to knock someone out unconcious has nothing to do with strength - that is why there are strawweight KO artists such as Ricardo Lopez.

But if a 240lbs man is hitting you often over 6-8-10 rounds - it will make a difference than a 210 lbs man doing the same. That is why we have weight categories in the first place.

You said yourself, that weight has no bearing on punch power though - I'm merely following up your own line of enquiry.

Mike Tyson was 215 lbs in his prime, and arguably hit as hard as anyone in the history of the division - so clearly, weight is not the predominant factor in determining punch power.

Given that bigger men are definitely slower, have more inertia to combat, and are less mobile, I ask again what advantage the extra weight confers?

And I also said that I should have been more clear when I then clarified my meaning by saying that there is a difference between one punch KO power and a prolonged beating off a heavier, stronger person over a period of time - it will do great damage. So if you are going to follow my 'line of enquiry' then accept everything I have said and try not to cherry pick my points.

KO power has nothing to do with strength, there are punchers in the straw weight division.

However, the stronger a fighter is - the more accumulative damage they can do even if they are not concussive punchers, why do you think there are very few (if any) heavyweight journeymen along the likes of Peter Buckley? You can do that at welterweight but at heavyweight, you are going to accumulate damage and get badly hurt.

Tyson was fast and had fantastic timing, that is what KO power is - so being stronger physically has other uses other than KO power - so I ask you (again) does physical strength have any place in a heavyweight fighters abilities? (here is a clue, the answer is yes) Surely you can think of a reason or three?

[Bobbyptsd]

Strength and size have nothing to do with boxing, especially in the heavyweight division, everyone knows that

Carlos, can you just say Marciano would have KO'd Wlad so we can move on? I mean it is the conventional wisdom around here.

[wvboxer]

I think Wlad could possible beat ever great fighter in history. His skill combined with his size & the fact he knows how to use that size make him a tough match. Guy never alters his attack. He's not going to get into a brawl where he may get hit. He's got a strategy that works & it would possibly work against Ali, Holmes, Louis etc....

I'm a huge fan of many fighters that have been mentioned. Love Ali. Love Foreman. Love Holmes & Frazier. There is no sporting event as exciting to me as the first round of a Tyson fight! I watch a HW fight today just out habit. I usually watch a few rounds & get bored. However, Wlad may one day be recognized as #1.

[man]

i don't know how people can make a serious case
for liston being above wlad at this point aside of
sentimental glorification for the past. it for sure
cannot be Liston's great record with ATGs, which
is the main criticism of woad's record.

[man]

If strength doesn't - as you agree - then why mention it? Marciano was able to smash much bigger men than himself to bits, (he once annihilated a 255 lb man, as did Dempsey, whereas Valuev (relatively speaking) couldn't knock the skin of a rice pudding.

I mean if you think about it, what advantage does all that extra size confer, apart from reach - ? Wlad for all his size, can't hold a shot anywhere near as well as Ali or Frazier, or Marciano for that matter, all smaller men.

I think the fixation with size at heavyweight is slightly misleading, what people forget is that once guys get beyond a certain size, they start to become less agile - this isn't a factor below heavyweight, because these are 'normal' sized humans - anyone 6'6" and over is basically pushing the limits of how big a human can be, and still be capable of athleticism - Wlad is fairly nimble for his size, but he's not exactly balletic in there, nor could he ever be. If size was everything, then Valuev would have been unbeatable, but clearly, he wasn't, and he struggled with a very old version of Holyfield, who many thought was robbed of the decision.

Let's not forget, really big men like Wlad, are still a rarity in the division, go look at the top 50 boxrec heavyweights, how many guys are there over 6' 4" - not many - most are the same size as Ali and Foreman - I still believe that 6'3 and 220-240 lbs is as big as any heavyweight needs to be if he has the skills, the problem isn't that Wlad is so much bigger than everyone else - as we shall see if Fury ever fights him - it's that he has better skills, and a better fighting brain, not to mention a wealth of big fight experience.

Great post.

disagree. size is a big factor. does occasionally
a smaller fighter make up for his disadvantage
with unbelievable talent?

yes. even happens in the NBA, but that would
no one make believe size is no factor in basketball.

[JCS]

i don't know how people can make a serious case
for liston being above wlad at this point aside of
sentimental glorification for the past. it for sure
cannot be Liston's great record with ATGs, which
is the main criticism of woad's record.

What is Wlad's record against ATGs?

[cjdragon]

i don't know how people can make a serious case
for liston being above wlad at this point aside of
sentimental glorification for the past. it for sure
cannot be Liston's great record with ATGs, which
is the main criticism of woad's record.

Yeah I don't know why either.
But it's probably because he fought Ali twice. Many of Ali's opponents are now considered great because they simply were in the ring with him.
That's just the way it is. Nostalgia tends to rule most sports, not just boxing.

[cjdragon]

i don't know how people can make a serious case
for liston being above wlad at this point aside of
sentimental glorification for the past. it for sure
cannot be Liston's great record with ATGs, which
is the main criticism of woad's record.

What is Wlad's record against ATGs?

Wlad is knocking on the door of ATG himself simply by dominating/winning against everyone placed in front of him for 10+ years...8 year reign, 17 Heavyweight title defenses, highest KO ratio, most undefeated challengers, etc, etc.
Not his fault he can't beat up on old, washed up or even dead ATG's.

[JCS]

i don't know how people can make a serious case
for liston being above wlad at this point aside of
sentimental glorification for the past. it for sure
cannot be Liston's great record with ATGs, which
is the main criticism of woad's record.

What is Wlad's record against ATGs?

Wlad is knocking on the door of ATG himself simply by dominating/winning against everyone placed in front of him for 10+ years...8 year reign, 17 Heavyweight title defenses, highest KO ratio, most undefeated challengers, etc, etc.
Not his fault he can't beat up on old, washed up or even dead ATG's.

You can't criticize a IBHOFer's ATG record when saying he's so inferior to Wlad, who has NO ATG record. Find something else as fuel.