Louis or Ali, who was the greatest?

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 30 Dec 2005, 12:31

I don’t mean if they had fought, that has been done to death many times before.

What I would like your opinions on is who was the greater man over all.

My friend rates Ali has being the best man, he claims Ali did more good in the fight against racism than Joe Louis did in his time.

My friend does not use this site so I think it is safe me saying so, but from my experience talking to people about boxers you can almost always tell how much they really know by their fave boxers they list.
Ali and Naz are two names that arise my suspicion to their real boxing knowledge.

The explanations they give for choosing the said boxers are built up from myths told by their drinking buddies or by their dads who heard it from their drinking buddies…or from the film on that boxers life.

My friend said that Louis was over-rated and was a simple country boy who was lucky that he could avoid the good coloured fighters around at that time….it hurts me just to repeat these things.

I explained that Joe Louis did a lot more for the fight against racism, he helped in the dismantling of prejudice much, much more.
He helped rid the scourge of racism by encouraging integration rather than Ali who in his early days was more for separation.

I reminded my friend that Joe Louis faced racism a hundred fold more than Ali ever did yet he never used the race card on another fellow boxer, unlike Ali who could not help but use it at almost any opportunity.

And my final answer was that Joe Louis was loved by everybody that knew him, Ali certainly was not.

Joe Louis suffered mental problems later on in life so these must be overlooked, but let us rate these two well known boxers on what they did when they had the chance.

For me Ali will never come close to comparing to the great Joe Louis.

jedijojo · Post by **jedijojo** » 30 Dec 2005, 12:37

tonyevs wrote:I don’t mean if they had fought, that has been done to death many times before.

What I would like your opinions on is who was the greater man over all.

My friend rates Ali has being the best man, he claims Ali did more good in the fight against racism than Joe Louis did in his time.

My friend does not use this site so I think it is safe me saying so, but from my experience talking to people about boxers you can almost always tell how much they really know by their fave boxers they list.
Ali and Naz are two names that arise my suspicion to their real boxing knowledge.

The explanations they give for choosing the said boxers are built up from myths told by their drinking buddies or by their dads who heard it from their drinking buddies…or from the film on that boxers life.

My friend said that Louis was over-rated and was a simple country boy who was lucky that he could avoid the good coloured fighters around at that time….it hurts me just to repeat these things.

I explained that Joe Louis did a lot more for the fight against racism, he helped in the dismantling of prejudice much, much more.
He helped rid the scourge of racism by encouraging integration rather than Ali who in his early days was more for separation.

I reminded my friend that Joe Louis faced racism a hundred fold more than Ali ever did yet he never used the race card on another fellow boxer, unlike Ali who could not help but use it at almost any opportunity.

And my final answer was that Joe Louis was loved by everybody that knew him, Ali certainly was not.

Joe Louis suffered mental problems later on in life so these must be overlooked, but let us rate these two well known boxers on what they did when they had the chance.

For me Ali will never come close to comparing to the great Joe Louis.

What did Joe Louis did against racism??? Except being what the white people asked him to be. He was a government product and they backstabbed him after his career.

Don't misunderstand me, im not dismissing Joe Louis, but outside the ring, there is no comparison, Ali did a lot more things than Louis.

evndrbsn · Post by **evndrbsn** » 30 Dec 2005, 19:50

Ali was the greatest

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 30 Dec 2005, 20:33

joe louis

Borinken25 · Post by **Borinken25** » 30 Dec 2005, 21:44

Well as fighter as have to go with Louis because more accomplishments, but Ali as fighter was a really close second, but as a figure nobody comes close to Ali. Ali was the greatest as far character and sports figure. No contest. Please just my opinion.

theone · Post by **theone** » 31 Dec 2005, 10:48

Joe Louis was a great fighter, but a very ordinary man, who was a product of his time. He did what he was told, which was what the white American public expected from him; not smiling or celebrating after fights, donating money to the war effort and not banging white girls.
Joe played the uncle tom role because he really had no choice. If he would have said or did half the things Baer or Gelento did it would have been the end of him. Outside the ring Louis was a very ordinary man. He drank too much, gambled too much and cheated on his wife. An ordinary man with extraordinary skills.
Ali accomplished much greater things outside the ring than Louis without a doubt. Ali's additude and stance actually demonstrated what makes America great. Freedom of speech, freedom of religon and the right to due proccess.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 31 Dec 2005, 12:49

I still don`t get it with Ali.

Many of the people that was around him have said less than great things about him, he was very racist...its a fact...he also used this racism for his own benefit.

As he has gotten older he has changed from this, he is like a saint to some people who either can`t remember what he has said or choose to say it was Ali just fooling with people.

Sure Joe Louis had his faults, he slept around...but so didn`t Ali? and how Ali did it it was alot worse for his then wife.

Joe Louis for me did much more for white black intergration, he was a man of the greatest dignity and composure.

Ali in his younger days was all about Ali, and he used any way he knew to get it.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 31 Dec 2005, 14:00

Foreman sums it up perfectly.

He said, "Ali is the greatest man ever to box, but Joe Louis is the greatest boxer."

theone · Post by **theone** » 31 Dec 2005, 14:39

Sure Joe Louis had his faults, he slept around...but so didn`t Ali? and how Ali did it it was alot worse for his then wife.

You're absolutely right. I only brought it show that Louis was a reuglar guy, not a saint like alot of people portray him.

Joe Louis for me did much more for white black intergration, he was a man of the greatest dignity and composure.

I absolutely disagree. Louis towed the line; I'm not saying I blame him, but thats the facts. Ali challenged the establishment,spoke up for his beliefs, and sparked social debate at great personal risk. Agree with his veiws or not, Ali was a very important figure during the civil rights movement.

ferroz · Post by **ferroz** » 01 Jan 2006, 04:53

theone wrote:Joe Louis was a great fighter, but a very ordinary man, who was a product of his time. He did what he was told, which was what the white American public expected from him; not smiling or celebrating after fights, donating money to the war effort and not banging white girls.
Joe played the uncle tom role because he really had no choice. If he would have said or did half the things Baer or Gelento did it would have been the end of him. Outside the ring Louis was a very ordinary man. He drank too much, gambled too much and cheated on his wife. An ordinary man with extraordinary skills.
Ali accomplished much greater things outside the ring than Louis without a doubt. Ali's additude and stance actually demonstrated what makes America great. Freedom of speech, freedom of religon and the right to due proccess.

I wouldn't go as far as to call him an uncle tom type person but you have to remember that he didn't want to make the same mistakes that Jack Johnson made in making white america hate him.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 01 Jan 2006, 06:09

ferroz wrote:
theone wrote:Joe Louis was a great fighter, but a very ordinary man, who was a product of his time. He did what he was told, which was what the white American public expected from him; not smiling or celebrating after fights, donating money to the war effort and not banging white girls.
Joe played the uncle tom role because he really had no choice. If he would have said or did half the things Baer or Gelento did it would have been the end of him. Outside the ring Louis was a very ordinary man. He drank too much, gambled too much and cheated on his wife. An ordinary man with extraordinary skills.
Ali accomplished much greater things outside the ring than Louis without a doubt. Ali's additude and stance actually demonstrated what makes America great. Freedom of speech, freedom of religon and the right to due proccess.
I wouldn't go as far as to call him an uncle tom type person but you have to remember that he didn't want to make the same mistakes that Jack Johnson made in making white america hate him.

In by doing so he opened the door for others to follow...Ali included.

Joe Louis enabled Ali to do and act as he did.

And the uncle Tom remark has been used before to describe Louis but almost always by ignorant or jealous people..who should know better

The Scranton Assassin · Post by **The Scranton Assassin** » 01 Jan 2006, 07:02

All the shit that happened outside the ring dosent matter in my opinion. All that matters is who beat the better opposition. The heavyweight devision was much much much more deep in Ali's time and I don't think Louis could have beaten Ali before or after his exile.

theone · Post by **theone** » 01 Jan 2006, 10:15

I wouldn't go as far as to call him an uncle tom type person but you have to remember that he didn't want to make the same mistakes that Jack Johnson made in making white america hate him.

And the uncle Tom remark has been used before to describe Louis but almost always by ignorant or jealous people..who should know better

I never called Louis an uncle tom, but he definitly played the role. There were strict rules he had to abide by to keep white america happy.

In by doing so he opened the door for others to follow...Ali included.
Joe Louis enabled Ali to do and act as he did.

Sure, but Ali's social impact still surpassed that of Louis. Like Actor/entertainer Stepin Flecthen, also forced to play the uncle tom role, paving the way for Sydney Poitier, who surpassed him in terms of impact and relevence.

Cap · Post by **Cap** » 01 Jan 2006, 12:42

Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali were just men, not saints. In his early days Ali supported the concept of separation of the races spouted by Elijah Muhammad and Malcom X. Ali also played the race card in the ring. Remember, he called Joe Frazier an ugly gorilla, a remark that hurt Frazier deeply.

Joe Louis lived in a different era, when guys like Baer could freely refer to African-Americans as "n-----rs", and ring announcers made a point of mentioning the obvious fact that Louis was "coloured". Joe Louis made it more acceptable for Black fighters to compete, and undoubtedly made it easier for Jackie Robinson and others to play in major league sports.

Ali was a creature of the new electronic media age. They made him an international celebrity. If his image had been confined to movie house newsreels, he'd be just another flamboyant "Gorgeous George" clone.

Cap

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 01 Jan 2006, 14:09

ali is the greatest because he was the best fighter in the best decade. he was one of the smartest fighters ever, and his talent was matched by noone. ali had heart, stamina, power, speed, unbeleivable footwork. he was incredible, and i think that louis is a solid number 2 heavyweight of all time, and if you ranked him at 1 i wouldnt have muhc of a problem with it, but imo ali is just better. he also faced better competition.

theone · Post by **theone** » 01 Jan 2006, 15:20

In his early days Ali supported the concept of separation of the races spouted by Elijah Muhammad and Malcom X.

Really, think about the racial climate of the times, can you really blame a young angry black men of the time adopting such an outlook? Cause and effect; if it was not for the rampant racism of the time there would never have been a Nation of Islam or black panther party.

Joe Louis made it more acceptable for Black fighters to compete, and undoubtedly made it easier for Jackie Robinson and others to play in major league sports

And Ali helped make it possilble for black atheletes to be themselves and not have to conform to the ways white society wanted them to behave.

Ali was a creature of the new electronic media age. They made him an international celebrity.

But remember that same media was for the most part against him early on.
They were looking more to vilify him not make him an icon.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 01 Jan 2006, 15:20

Its not about who would beat the other

...who fought the better oposition

....because these have been done to death before...and they get tedious having to explain and explain every few months the same things over and over again

The original question was, who was really THE greatest man.

So far the fact Ali was a massive racist is getting forgotten and instead the terrible uncle Tom gets brought up on Louis.

That for me proves why Ali should never ever get the title of the greatest.

Larry Holmes made a tongue in cheek remark about Marciano not being fit to carry his jock-strap, it was never meant to be a racist remark but it was taken as one by alot of people...and is still well remembered even now...I saw an interview on UK TV this or last year by John Rawlings and the subject got brought up again

Yet I cannot think of another boxer who was so blatant in their racism as Ali, white or black...yet not many people remember.

I do know Ali is a different person today, I`m glad about it, but the fact is Joe Louis never used racism, if he was such an uncle Tom why was he so loved by black and white alike...the uncle Tom was just jealousy and ignorance.[/u][/b]

theone · Post by **theone** » 01 Jan 2006, 15:36

I do know Ali is a different person today, I`m glad about it, but the fact is Joe Louis never used racism,

How could he? He would be destroyed, he wasnt stupid. Did Louis ever take any stance against racism? Even a moderate one? If he didnt, this could be looked upon as cowardly and selfish. Alot of people put them selves at great personal risk for the right cause. At least Ali had the balls to speak his mind , at the risk of losing his career freedom and even his life.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 01 Jan 2006, 15:45

In Ray Robinsons autobiography he details how Joe Louis went about dealing with the racism they faced during their times together, he may not have been the type to knock heads together like Robinson but he was more effective in his own way.

I would recommend you read the book, `Sugar Ray, by Ray Robinson and Dave Anderson. Robinson has a paragraph or two on Ali also.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 01 Jan 2006, 16:12

...i haven't gotten around to reading any of the posts here yet....but..inthe meantime the answer is joe louis. thank you for asking.

p.s. as the comparison is between just the two, the question should be "who is the greater?" if the question is asking "who is the greatest" as meaning the greatest of them all, the answer is the same for both.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 01 Jan 2006, 22:57

Muhammad Ali believed the War in Vietnam was immoral and had nothing to do with the United States, rather than be inducted into the military he gave up his world title. For that I respect him.

Louis or Ali, who was the greatest?

Louis or Ali, who was the greatest?

Re: Louis or Ali, who was the greatest?