As a boxing fan I cannot take a warrior of umpteen heroic performances in the ring and slap a 'drug cheat' label on him, just because a few imbeciles on the internet say he is. There's no evidence whatsoever.tiny_acres wrote:You have to be in complete denial to think that Evander was not on the juice.
\Tuan_Jim wrote:As a boxing fan I cannot take a warrior of umpteen heroic performances in the ring and slap a 'drug cheat' label on him, just because a few imbeciles on the internet say he is. There's no evidence whatsoever.tiny_acres wrote:You have to be in complete denial to think that Evander was not on the juice.
The thought of you being called upon to do jury service is genuinely frightening.
What is the evidence that the father of 11, with 7 women is a super-stud on anabolics?Tuan_Jim wrote:As a boxing fan I cannot take a warrior of umpteen heroic performances in the ring and slap a 'drug cheat' label on him, just because a few imbeciles on the internet say he is. There's no evidence whatsoever.tiny_acres wrote:You have to be in complete denial to think that Evander was not on the juice.
The thought of you being called upon to do jury service is genuinely frightening.
Do not insult his hero.klompton wrote:God some fans are so delusional its pathetic. I remember arguing with the same types about Armstrong. They swore up and down that he was a hero and would never do anything like that. Even as the evidence mounted. Same with some of the baseball nuts who refused to believe Mark McGuire and Sammy Sosa's canned ham forearms and jawbone of an ass were the result of steroids even though one was openly using other legal performance enhancers and the other got caught with a corked bat. But hey, Holyfield had an insane build at 14 right?
LOL
Good to know I had a freakishly insane build at 14 also...
Yeah, this guy didnt use steroids and there is absolutely no evidence he did:
Because its not like the honorable god fearing Holyfield would ever cheat (insert any number of elbow, headbutt, lowblow references here.)
Holfyield turned pro at 177 lbs of solid, in shape muscle at age 22. Nine years later at 31 he weighed 217 lbs of solid ripped muscle against Bowe. Id love to see the hands of everyone who gained 40 pounds of solid skeleto-muscular weight (not fat or middle age spread, Im talking about ripped solid muscle) AT ANY POINT after puberty naturally and did so while competing in what is essentially an endurance sport burning thousands of calories weekly. Nobody? No? I didnt think so. I guess Holyfield just has one of those rare glandular problems that lets him magically grow muscle... while working out with known steroid abusers... and while purchasing steroids... for his uncle...
And it was all natural too...Tomasino wrote:He was in some freaky shape for Tyson!
klompton wrote:And it was all natural too...Tomasino wrote:He was in some freaky shape for Tyson!
You are banging your head against a wall.Some people will not use logic.klompton wrote:It is very hard to gain 40 pounds of muscle at any time for any duration under any circumstances after your natural growth period is ended or even near completion. Factor that in with the fact that its hard to MAINTAIN added muscle just living everyday life much less burning calories like crazy doing daily roadwork and boxing training and yeah, its pretty "miraculous." Thats why when guys like Jones and Holyfield blow up, look ripped, continue to excel, and get implicated in steroids scandals its pretty easy to make the connection. Ask a natural bodybuilder how hard it is to add muscle year after year and maintain that. The human body naturally hits a wall, that wall comes much faster in boxing because your body realises that it doesnt need all that muscle to do what is essentially a cardio sport. Look at marathon runners are those guys huge and ripped with bodybuilder bodies? No. If you saw a marathon runner that was built like Holy. A marathon runner who does it every day, youd wonder how he packed on all that weight. You wonder how this guy was gaining weight while doing all of that work. If 300 pound fat guy starts running marathons and yet somehow gets fatter and fatter but denied that he was living on a diet of twinkies you question him wouldnt you? Well, when a guy starts out as a relatively lithe fighter, works hard every day boxing and running yet packs on 40 pounds (and I dont care if its 2 years or 10) your going to wonder how he did it. When you find out hes training with Lee Haney, a poster child for steroid abuse, goes bald overnight, develops heart problems (and yeah, I dont care what he said about his heart problems, Schwarzennegger's heart problems were congenital... yeah, and just happened to coincide with his physique turning to piss because the doctors likely told him to layoff steroids or hed die... but I digress) and then gets caught buying steroids under an assumed name for his "uncle" it all pretty much makes sense.
klompton wrote:It is very hard to gain 40 pounds of muscle at any time for any duration under any circumstances after your natural growth period is ended or even near completion. Factor that in with the fact that its hard to MAINTAIN added muscle just living everyday life much less burning calories like crazy doing daily roadwork and boxing training and yeah, its pretty "miraculous." Thats why when guys like Jones and Holyfield blow up, look ripped, continue to excel, and get implicated in steroids scandals its pretty easy to make the connection. Ask a natural bodybuilder how hard it is to add muscle year after year and maintain that. The human body naturally hits a wall, that wall comes much faster in boxing because your body realises that it doesnt need all that muscle to do what is essentially a cardio sport. Look at marathon runners are those guys huge and ripped with bodybuilder bodies? No. If you saw a marathon runner that was built like Holy. A marathon runner who does it every day, youd wonder how he packed on all that weight. You wonder how this guy was gaining weight while doing all of that work. If 300 pound fat guy starts running marathons and yet somehow gets fatter and fatter but denied that he was living on a diet of twinkies you question him wouldnt you? Well, when a guy starts out as a relatively lithe fighter, works hard every day boxing and running yet packs on 40 pounds (and I dont care if its 2 years or 10) your going to wonder how he did it. When you find out hes training with Lee Haney, a poster child for steroid abuse, goes bald overnight, develops heart problems (and yeah, I dont care what he said about his heart problems, Schwarzennegger's heart problems were congenital... yeah, and just happened to coincide with his physique turning to piss because the doctors likely told him to layoff steroids or hed die... but I digress) and then gets caught buying steroids under an assumed name for his "uncle" it all pretty much makes sense.
Im pretty militant about a no tolerance policy for PED users in any sport. Holy was one of my favorites, same with Shane, and in my opinion they shouldnt be in the Hall of Fame. As far as Im concerned Vargas, Mosely, Holy, Jones, Toney, etc will always have an asterix by their name and guys like that should not sit in the same halls as guys like Archie Moore (who also blew up in weight but clearly did it naturally and often showing some flab in the process), Mickey Walker, and other legendary fighters that weight jumped successfully without the help of PEDs. Those are the true giants of the sport. Not cheaters.Tomasino wrote:klompton wrote:It is very hard to gain 40 pounds of muscle at any time for any duration under any circumstances after your natural growth period is ended or even near completion. Factor that in with the fact that its hard to MAINTAIN added muscle just living everyday life much less burning calories like crazy doing daily roadwork and boxing training and yeah, its pretty "miraculous." Thats why when guys like Jones and Holyfield blow up, look ripped, continue to excel, and get implicated in steroids scandals its pretty easy to make the connection. Ask a natural bodybuilder how hard it is to add muscle year after year and maintain that. The human body naturally hits a wall, that wall comes much faster in boxing because your body realises that it doesnt need all that muscle to do what is essentially a cardio sport. Look at marathon runners are those guys huge and ripped with bodybuilder bodies? No. If you saw a marathon runner that was built like Holy. A marathon runner who does it every day, youd wonder how he packed on all that weight. You wonder how this guy was gaining weight while doing all of that work. If 300 pound fat guy starts running marathons and yet somehow gets fatter and fatter but denied that he was living on a diet of twinkies you question him wouldnt you? Well, when a guy starts out as a relatively lithe fighter, works hard every day boxing and running yet packs on 40 pounds (and I dont care if its 2 years or 10) your going to wonder how he did it. When you find out hes training with Lee Haney, a poster child for steroid abuse, goes bald overnight, develops heart problems (and yeah, I dont care what he said about his heart problems, Schwarzennegger's heart problems were congenital... yeah, and just happened to coincide with his physique turning to piss because the doctors likely told him to layoff steroids or hed die... but I digress) and then gets caught buying steroids under an assumed name for his "uncle" it all pretty much makes sense.
Thanks. With that being said do you think he belongs in the hall or should his record as a champion at HW be scratched? Middle ground? The guys a great fighter but obviously abused performance enhancing drugs, very successfully, having not been caught by the inept drug testing. I'm with you on Jones. I guess James Toney had what they call bitch tits too, that's what seemed to happen to Swarznegger
klompton wrote:Im pretty militant about a no tolerance policy for PED users in any sport. Holy was one of my favorites, same with Shane, and in my opinion they shouldnt be in the Hall of Fame. As far as Im concerned Vargas, Mosely, Holy, Jones, Toney, etc will always have an asterix by their name and guys like that should not sit in the same halls as guys like Archie Moore (who also blew up in weight but clearly did it naturally and often showing some flab in the process), Mickey Walker, and other legendary fighters that weight jumped successfully without the help of PEDs. Those are the true giants of the sport. Not cheaters.Tomasino wrote:klompton wrote:It is very hard to gain 40 pounds of muscle at any time for any duration under any circumstances after your natural growth period is ended or even near completion. Factor that in with the fact that its hard to MAINTAIN added muscle just living everyday life much less burning calories like crazy doing daily roadwork and boxing training and yeah, its pretty "miraculous." Thats why when guys like Jones and Holyfield blow up, look ripped, continue to excel, and get implicated in steroids scandals its pretty easy to make the connection. Ask a natural bodybuilder how hard it is to add muscle year after year and maintain that. The human body naturally hits a wall, that wall comes much faster in boxing because your body realises that it doesnt need all that muscle to do what is essentially a cardio sport. Look at marathon runners are those guys huge and ripped with bodybuilder bodies? No. If you saw a marathon runner that was built like Holy. A marathon runner who does it every day, youd wonder how he packed on all that weight. You wonder how this guy was gaining weight while doing all of that work. If 300 pound fat guy starts running marathons and yet somehow gets fatter and fatter but denied that he was living on a diet of twinkies you question him wouldnt you? Well, when a guy starts out as a relatively lithe fighter, works hard every day boxing and running yet packs on 40 pounds (and I dont care if its 2 years or 10) your going to wonder how he did it. When you find out hes training with Lee Haney, a poster child for steroid abuse, goes bald overnight, develops heart problems (and yeah, I dont care what he said about his heart problems, Schwarzennegger's heart problems were congenital... yeah, and just happened to coincide with his physique turning to piss because the doctors likely told him to layoff steroids or hed die... but I digress) and then gets caught buying steroids under an assumed name for his "uncle" it all pretty much makes sense.
Thanks. With that being said do you think he belongs in the hall or should his record as a champion at HW be scratched? Middle ground? The guys a great fighter but obviously abused performance enhancing drugs, very successfully, having not been caught by the inept drug testing. I'm with you on Jones. I guess James Toney had what they call bitch tits too, that's what seemed to happen to Swarznegger
I can believe that about the UFC. You can look at those guys and they dont pass the eyeball test. Even Georges St. Pierre who is high and mighty in his condemning of everyone in the sport using PEDs Ive thought he was using PEDs since before the discussion ever came up. The way he sometimes looks skinny and then other times looks huge and ripped sure seems like a guy who is cycling on and off. We had a guy like that here who was a trainer at the gym I used to workout at. He was huge, muscular, ripped, but he had muscles in places that you cant work them to get them bigger: His jaw muscles looked like a friggin gorilla. Thats a big clue there. When a guys jaw starts getting muscular with the rest of him, well, you dont get that chewing hubba bubba. Anyway, one day I saw him at the mall and he was no bigger than me. Just an average guy, nothing special, his neck was smaller, his face was leaner without the giant jaw muscle. You knew then what he was up to. Next time I saw him a few months later he had packed on a good 20 or 30 pounds. Im sure hed tell everyone he just worked out harder than everyone and knew his body well enough to know how to get the most out of his workouts. Bullshit. He just had the hookups and the gear and wasnt afraid to stick a needle in his ass to make himself feel like a man.Tomasino wrote: I have a friend of a friend who says it is utterly rife in UFC, not frowned upon at all by the fighters. What is frowned on is getting caught. I think this will be the first sport to embrace PEDs despite their current stance.
I've been telling people this for years but nobody wants to hear.klompton wrote:It is very hard to gain 40 pounds of muscle at any time for any duration under any circumstances after your natural growth period is ended or even near completion. Factor that in with the fact that its hard to MAINTAIN added muscle just living everyday life much less burning calories like crazy doing daily roadwork and boxing training and yeah, its pretty "miraculous." Thats why when guys like Jones and Holyfield blow up, look ripped, continue to excel, and get implicated in steroids scandals its pretty easy to make the connection. Ask a natural bodybuilder how hard it is to add muscle year after year and maintain that.
There's a poster on the British section called Toby who knows a lot about all this, it is pretty obvious isn't it?Ezzard wrote:I've been telling people this for years but nobody wants to hear.klompton wrote:It is very hard to gain 40 pounds of muscle at any time for any duration under any circumstances after your natural growth period is ended or even near completion. Factor that in with the fact that its hard to MAINTAIN added muscle just living everyday life much less burning calories like crazy doing daily roadwork and boxing training and yeah, its pretty "miraculous." Thats why when guys like Jones and Holyfield blow up, look ripped, continue to excel, and get implicated in steroids scandals its pretty easy to make the connection. Ask a natural bodybuilder how hard it is to add muscle year after year and maintain that.
There is science based evidence that the physical benefits of taking PEDS can stay with you for years. This is the article I read.Ezzard wrote:That's how I see it.
Justin Gatlin is supposed to be clean now but is running the same times as when he was caught.
There's no need for proof. It's obvious.
evrenb wrote:Man it upsets me reading this...imagine a 240lb solid rocky marciano with a Jaw Bone like an 'Ass' ..sheesh!!
