PEDS and Hall of Fame

[evrenb]

It's interesting when talking about today's super heavyweights that Wlad fought at 15st 10lbs a few times. He certainly grew up...

[palooka]

It's interesting when talking about today's super heavyweights that Wlad fought at 15st 10lbs a few times. He certainly grew up...

This will turn into a 15 page thread now you've intoned the W word.

[evrenb]

uh oh - have I opened a can of worms??

[Cholo_cws]

Regarding Holyfield's case, what is there evidence that is more conclusive? I mean, is there more such as a signature, user account needing user ID etc. It doesn't look good for him but I would like to know more. I don't see that how him 'looking' like a drugs user is in any way conclusive. Seems a bit like speculating that somebody famous must have had a face lift if they look so much younger than their years or must be gay because they're seen as a a bit camp...come on down Lionel Blair.

[Rexob]

I think they should be aloud to take as many PEDs as possible then let them go at it, it would fun to watch! just like the 90s heavyweights proper bunch them lot

[expe]

I think they should be aloud to take as many PEDs as possible then let them go at it, it would fun to watch! just like the 90s heavyweights proper bunch them lot

Until someone gets seriously hurt...

[Rexob]

I think they should be aloud to take as many PEDs as possible then let them go at it, it would fun to watch! just like the 90s heavyweights proper bunch them lot

Until someone gets seriously hurt...

;;-)

[HomicideHenry]

I already stated my position earlier, but I will enlarge it--- reminds me a bit of the MLB controversy with The Big Red Machine, and how he will never be in the HOF because of gambling (betting for and against his own team). For me, that in and of itself is so mundane in comparison to someone using corked bats and PED's--- but yet we will see Griffey, Sosa, McGuire, Bonds etc. in the HOF without question.

[Perseus]

I already stated my position earlier, but I will enlarge it--- reminds me a bit of the MLB controversy with The Big Red Machine, and how he will never be in the HOF because of gambling (betting for and against his own team). For me, that in and of itself is so mundane in comparison to someone using corked bats and PED's--- but yet we will see Griffey, Sosa, McGuire, Bonds etc. in the HOF without question.

Sosa, McGuire and Bonds are all HOF eligible and haven't come close to getting enough votes for induction.

I would support every one of them being in the HOF before Rose.

Pete Rose AGREED in writing to his lifetime ban and he knew what he was signing.

[Perseus]

As for PROVEN PED users.................as in an actual failed drug test or some sort of PED related conviction.... I say vote them into the IBHOF just like any other boxer.

Until the sport of boxing creates an environment that actually discourages PED use vs turning a blind eye and clearly condoning such actions then there is no good reason to ban boxers from the hall of fame for PED use.

99% of boxers have no chance of IBHOF induction to begin with. Being banned from the HOF is not a punishment for those that were never going to be there anyway.

The IBHOF is not some shrine of integrity, it's a museum and nothing else. Museums store history both the good and the bad..,.................and right now the bad part is not cheaters it's the environment that allows and encourages cheating.

Spare me the moral high horse stuff about boxers on PED's hurting boxers who aren't on PED's.
How is banning them from the IBHOF going to stop that from happening?
Only future hall of famers use PED's?
If that's the case then we should burn down the HOF, to stop all PED use.

The drug testing in boxing is such a joke they are letting boxers choose their own drug testing agencies.
The athlete is by far the LAST person that should have any say in drug testing protocol.
No athlete is going to choose a lab that will bust them for PED's.
Given a choice they are going to set up a situation that ensures they will not get caught but others might.

[evrenb]

As for PROVEN PED users.................as in an actual failed drug test or some sort of PED related conviction.... I say vote them into the IBHOF just like any other boxer.

Until the sport of boxing creates an environment that actually discourages PED use vs turning a blind eye and clearly condoning such actions then there is no good reason to ban boxers from the hall of fame for PED use.

99% of boxers have no chance of IBHOF induction to begin with. Being banned from the HOF is not a punishment for those that were never going to be there anyway.

The IBHOF is not some shrine of integrity, it's a museum and nothing else. Museums store history both the good and the bad..,.................and right now the bad part is not cheaters it's the environment that allows and encourages cheating.

Spare me the moral high horse stuff about boxers on PED's hurting boxers who aren't on PED's.
How is banning them from the IBHOF going to stop that from happening?
Only future hall of famers use PED's?
If that's the case then we should burn down the HOF, to stop all PED use.

The drug testing in boxing is such a joke they are letting boxers choose their own drug testing agencies.
The athlete is by far the LAST person that should have any say in drug testing protocol.
No athlete is going to choose a lab that will bust them for PED's.
Given a choice they are going to set up a situation that ensures they will not get caught but others might.

It wasn't a question on how banning fighters will stop PED use. The question is whether someone like James Toney who by his achievements, longevity, skill etc should be denied entry into the Boxing Hall of Fame because he failed a drugs test.
I say that anyone who is caught should be banned from fighting for at least a year, maybe more. Then be under the microscope from then on in. And definite 'NO ENTRY' into the Hall of Fame. As they are cheats.

[Perseus]

As for PROVEN PED users.................as in an actual failed drug test or some sort of PED related conviction.... I say vote them into the IBHOF just like any other boxer.

Until the sport of boxing creates an environment that actually discourages PED use vs turning a blind eye and clearly condoning such actions then there is no good reason to ban boxers from the hall of fame for PED use.

99% of boxers have no chance of IBHOF induction to begin with. Being banned from the HOF is not a punishment for those that were never going to be there anyway.

The IBHOF is not some shrine of integrity, it's a museum and nothing else. Museums store history both the good and the bad..,.................and right now the bad part is not cheaters it's the environment that allows and encourages cheating.

Spare me the moral high horse stuff about boxers on PED's hurting boxers who aren't on PED's.
How is banning them from the IBHOF going to stop that from happening?
Only future hall of famers use PED's?
If that's the case then we should burn down the HOF, to stop all PED use.

The drug testing in boxing is such a joke they are letting boxers choose their own drug testing agencies.
The athlete is by far the LAST person that should have any say in drug testing protocol.
No athlete is going to choose a lab that will bust them for PED's.
Given a choice they are going to set up a situation that ensures they will not get caught but others might.

It wasn't a question on how banning fighters will stop PED use. The question is whether someone like James Toney who by his achievements, longevity, skill etc should be denied entry into the Boxing Hall of Fame because he failed a drugs test.
I say that anyone who is caught should be banned from fighting for at least a year, maybe more. Then be under the microscope from then on in. And definite 'NO ENTRY' into the Hall of Fame. As they are cheats.

So is every boxer that intentionally hits low, head-butts or rabbit punches and the ones who do practice one or all of those things tend to do it fight after fight. All of those things are illegal for a reason just like PED's.
No bans for that kind of cheater?

Juicers generally do get banned for about a year when caught..................................unless they decide to fight in another jurisdiction that doesn't bother recognizing suspensions from other jurisdictions(part of the whole environment that encourages cheating thing).

They should be under the microscope BEFORE they ever fail a drug test.
That's the problem, the powers that run boxing aren't interested in cracking down on PED's.
Until the commissions get together and crack down on PED use in boxing I can't support banning anyone from the IBHOF for PED use.
If it's not something that has a chance of actually reducing PED use then it is an utterly worthless gesture
It would be nice if the media made a HOF induction ceremony all about why boxing does nothing about PED's and why they let proven PED users in the IBHOF.
Public humiliation is what it took for MLB to take action, can't imagine it will take anything less than that for boxing.

I hope Toney gets in the first ballot just like Hill did.

[Ambling Alp II]

I hope he doesn't but he probably will.

To me there is a difference between a guy who gets away with dirty tactics (though I don't like that either) and someone who uses drugs that are against the rules. Hopefully the referee won't let him get way with it to much. You can sometimes deal with things like a guy hitting you low or something like that. However going up against an opponent who is getting a unfair advantage that makes him better than you is not something you can adjust to.

Let's keep it simple. Don't reward people who cheated. Better to not reward some people who cheated (while some got away with it) than reward everyone who cheated who has a chance at the HOF.

Think of it another way. Lets say you are a borderline case for the HOF. You played by the rules when you fought. You are among a group of fairly even fighters who have a serious chance for the HOF. You know some other other guys cheated in one way or another. Wouldn't you rather have some of them (the ones who got caught using illegal drugs) be excluded from the HOF (and helping your chances of getting elected) rather than none of them?

[Perseus]

I hope he doesn't but he probably will.

To me there is a difference between a guy who gets away with dirty tactics (though I don't like that either) and someone who uses drugs that are against the rules. Hopefully the referee won't let him get way with it to much. You can sometimes deal with things like a guy hitting you low or something like that. However going up against an opponent who is getting a unfair advantage that makes him better than you is not something you can adjust to.

Let's keep it simple. Don't reward people who cheated. Better to not reward some people who cheated (while some got away with it) than reward everyone who cheated who has a chance at the HOF.

Think of it another way. Lets say you are a borderline case for the HOF. You played by the rules when you fought. You are among a group of fairly even fighters who have a serious chance for the HOF. You know some other other guys cheated in one way or another. Wouldn't you rather have some of them (the ones who got caught using illegal drugs) be excluded from the HOF (and helping your chances of getting elected) rather than none of them?

Nope.
I would rather get in on my own merits than as a consolation choice because somebody on their moral high horse thinks a museum(with a cute Hall of Fame designation) is a shrine of integrity.
I either deserve to be there or I don't and it's not based on what somebody else did or did not do.

Like taking a test, my grade shouldn't go up because somebody else with roughly the same score was caught cheating and given a failing grade.

[Ambling Alp II]

Yep. You are in competition with other fighters. It's not like a test where everyone who scored over say 90% gets an A. The Hall of Fame voting is in effect graded on a curve. Your career is compared directly to others. What other fighters accomplished does affect you. Whether you deserve to make it depends not only on what you did but what others did.
So if you really were in this hypothetical situation, you would want the guys that were caught cheating to be banned.
You are getting in on your own merits if you didn't cheat and legitimately deserve to be in.

[Sklar]

Re: PEDs, It's guilty until proven innocent for all US sports stars from circa 1965 onwards for me. At least the Eastern bloc lot didn't have the audacity to smile.

[palooka]

All sport at high levels is corrupted; amateur competition is politically corrupt, professional sport is financially corrupt. PEDs are a tool to further the corrupt ends.

[Controversial]

What always amazes me about Holyfield's career was pre-Tyson his career was thought to be pretty much over. He was in three wars with Bowe, losing two and he took a lot of punishment in those fights against a much bigger opponent. He was medically retired at one point for heart problems (although said to be misdiagnosed) and he lost to Moorer and even struggled to stop a 34 year old Bobby Czyz, who was a former LHW and at the end of his career. People forget Holyfield was given little hope against Tyson as he was thought to be past it. Then he pulled off a fantastic performance aged 34 and walked through Tysons punches in a way no one had previously done. Pretty amazing turnaround.

[evrenb]

Re: PEDs, It's guilty until proven innocent for all US sports stars from circa 1965 onwards for me. At least the Eastern bloc lot didn't have the audacity to smile.

The Eastern Bloc women of the 1980's had hairy chests all the way down to their bollocks.

[Sklar]

...the US women have Immac, wax strips and better designed Lycra.

[Controversial]

The problem with boxing is it's probably one of the most corrupt sports anyway. Boxers paid to lay down, gloves tampered with, boxers overlooked for title shots, boxers carefully matched to get a title shot, bent refs, dodgy judges, hometown decisions, opponents training camps deliberately mucked about etc...etc... PEDS are just another one of the many forms of cheating that goes on anyway.

[Perseus]

Yep. You are in competition with other fighters. It's not like a test where everyone who scored over say 90% gets an A. The Hall of Fame voting is in effect graded on a curve. Your career is compared directly to others. What other fighters accomplished does affect you. Whether you deserve to make it depends not only on what you did but what others did.
So if you really were in this hypothetical situation, you would want the guys that were caught cheating to be banned.
You are getting in on your own merits if you didn't cheat and legitimately deserve to be in.

Wrong.
First the answer will always be no because I don't want some useless douche-bag on his moral high horse handing anything to me.
Second if my achievements in the sport are not significant my name will never be considered to begin with, it absolutely is based on what the individual has or has not achieved.

...and way above any of that is the fact that we're talking about a sport that goes out of its way to allow PED's to begin with.
Boxing itself has to make an attempt first.

[Ambling Alp II]

First, you ( a non-cheater) would gladly accept it and wouldn't care that someone that cheated didn't get in. (Btw, those that don't condone cheating aren't douche bags; those that do are.)
Second, your achievements are compared to directly to others fighters careers. As mentioned previously, this is a hypothetical with you (non-cheater) and others, some of whom cheated; you had achievements impressive enough to be considered. It's not just about you. If your are judged better by enough voters you get in. The more fighters that would otherwise be considered that ruled ineligible, the better your chances.

Above all, yes it would great if the sport policed the drug cheaters better; though obviously it does to some extent or no one would have been caught.
Those caught should not be rewarded.

[evrenb]

I'm not sure why this question has become so confusing. Should people caught taking illegal substances be banned from Hall of Fame. ?

[Counter-puncher]

Re: PEDs, It's guilty until proven innocent for all US sports stars from circa 1965 onwards for me. At least the Eastern bloc lot didn't have the audacity to smile.