Bowe in the ibhof

[Old bones Ian]

I made a comment on the Naz thread, but thought this needs its own discussion.
I said that Bowe is undoubtedly one of the most talented heavys in recent years, but his ring accomplishments don't back it up. What could of been, rather than what was.
His series with Holyfield stands out of course, but other than that there's not alot. Hide, Cooper, Donald etc. Is that good enough for hall of fame? He avoided Lewis all his career didn't he?

The one argument people come with is 'There's worse fighters in there' which I don't doubt.
But there's also worse fighters with much better names in the win column that aren't in there as well.

[thepocketrocket]

Always find the idea he 'ducked' Lewis because he was scared almost laughable, and a theory perpetuated by the Lewis fan club.

Lennox was talented but was no way near as big a draw (and payday) as the likes of Holy and Tyson.

Only an idiot would have fought Lewis for a piss poor pay day instead of going against those two (presuming he got through Holy 2)

[orbtastic]

Who would you rather see in this year over him?

I must admit this year's selection is a little puzzling.

Hamed, I'm surprised is in there because he's been eligible for such a long time, but I understand that next year is the first year under their new rules where they've tweaked things slightly.

Also, you have to think that it's also a marketing thing for them - Don't induct 3 flyweights from Asia the same year - Don't induct 3 Americans in one year. So they're just spreading the weights around and I think Bowe is the first "big" name that hasn't been inducted so far who is eligible.

I think Julian Jackson is criminally overlooked but then you could take the same argument - Who has he beaten?

[Boxerbeetle]

Always find the idea he 'ducked' Lewis because he was scared almost laughable, and a theory perpetuated by the Lewis fan club.

Lennox was talented but was no way near as big a draw (and payday) as the likes of Holy and Tyson.

Only an idiot would have fought Lewis for a piss poor pay day instead of going against those two (presuming he got through Holy 2)

I dunno, personally I think Bowe was scared of Lewis. Lewis obviously stopped him early in the Olympics; Bowe never even considered fighting him in the pros, even when they were both struggling somewhat in the mid 90s.

[thepocketrocket]

Always find the idea he 'ducked' Lewis because he was scared almost laughable, and a theory perpetuated by the Lewis fan club.

Lennox was talented but was no way near as big a draw (and payday) as the likes of Holy and Tyson.

Only an idiot would have fought Lewis for a piss poor pay day instead of going against those two (presuming he got through Holy 2)

I dunno, personally I think Bowe was scared of Lewis. Lewis obviously stopped him early in the Olympics; Bowe never even considered fighting him in the pros, even when they were both struggling somewhat in the mid 90s.

I think by the time Bowe was beating Holy he wasn't scared as he had deffo established himself as number one. He would have respected him as a live threat though, as everyone did.

This means that when you are doing thye sums, the Holy rematch made much better sense. He would have got paid more, had beaten Holy already and everyone expected him to win again. It was a no-brainer.

In the mid 90's he got the WBO which was supposed to be a springboard to better things. He got the Holy trilogy fight (another good business move), and I think Lewis would have happened but for Golota and the life changing beatings he got there.

Hence, to me, this idea Bowe was shitting himself over big bad Lewis is false.

Business my boy

[Ezzard]

Likeable warrior. I don't believe he was scared of Lewis. But I also think he knew he could be beaten. No matter how you paint it...he avoided him...

The biggest thing he had over Holyfield was size.

Bowe was excellent but seems to get overrated.

[tobyh5]

This means that when you are doing thye sums, the Holy rematch made much better sense. He would have got paid more, had beaten Holy already and everyone expected him to win again. It was a no-brainer.

Business my boy

Nicely glossing over the fact he did not fight Holyfield in an immediate rematch, that he took two fights that were easy and there was a one year gap between those Holyfield fights.

[banjo]

I find it hard to believe fights with Michael Dokes and career journeyman Jesse Ferguson would have been bigger than a revenge match with the undisputed heavyweight title on the line against the man who defeated him in the 1988 Olympic final.

[thepocketrocket]

This means that when you are doing thye sums, the Holy rematch made much better sense. He would have got paid more, had beaten Holy already and everyone expected him to win again. It was a no-brainer.

Business my boy

Nicely glossing over the fact he did not fight Holyfield in an immediate rematch, that he took two fights that were easy and there was a one year gap between those Holyfield fights.

Risk-reward. Bowe was the name. He can have tick over fights and he can fight Holyfield. Don't see your point.

The issue is not whether Bowe avoided him. He did due to financial considerations. The issue is whether that should mean he is judged harshly,considering that all heavies given that economic backdrop (Including Lewis) would have done the same thing.

[thepocketrocket]

I find it hard to believe fights with Michael Dokes and career journeyman Jesse Ferguson would have been bigger than a revenge match with the undisputed heavyweight title on the line against the man who defeated him in the 1988 Olympic final.

It really isn't difficult. The financial gain he would have had for fighting a foreigner like Lewis didn't make it worthwhile. Ferguson and Dokes may have been for less money, but they were little risk. and tickover fights before the Holy rematch which was big cash and a fight he expected to win

[banjo]

I find it hard to believe fights with Michael Dokes and career journeyman Jesse Ferguson would have been bigger than a revenge match with the undisputed heavyweight title on the line against the man who defeated him in the 1988 Olympic final.

It really isn't difficult. The financial gain he would have had for fighting a foreigner like Lewis didn't make it worthwhile. Ferguson and Dokes may have been for less money, but they were little risk. and tickover fights before the Holy rematch which was big cash and a fight he expected to win

True although I don't believe Bowe was scared of Lewis either but i think Rock Newman was.

[thepocketrocket]

I find it hard to believe fights with Michael Dokes and career journeyman Jesse Ferguson would have been bigger than a revenge match with the undisputed heavyweight title on the line against the man who defeated him in the 1988 Olympic final.

It really isn't difficult. The financial gain he would have had for fighting a foreigner like Lewis didn't make it worthwhile. Ferguson and Dokes may have been for less money, but they were little risk. and tickover fights before the Holy rematch which was big cash and a fight he expected to win

True although I don't believe Bowe was scared of Lewis either but i think Rock Newman was.

Hey, that wouldn't be a surprise. Big 6.5 heavy with excellent skills, definitely a major threat.

[banjo]

You know what I mean

Bowe was Newmans golden goose.

[thepocketrocket]

You know what I mean

Bowe was Newmans golden goose.

I know Banjo. Think that has legs to me fair

[big lennox]

I think Bowe should be in there on account of his trilogy with Holyfield. Legendary fights with world class skills, durability, guile, heart and technique on display. Bowe was a proper waste of a talent.He was an exceptional talent.

[bigjack]

I think Bowe should be in there on account of his trilogy with Holyfield. Legendary fights with world class skills, durability, guile, heart and technique on display. Bowe was a proper waste of a talent.He was an exceptional talent.

I actually think that Bowe would have been too much for Lewis at the time when he binned the belt,Lennox for me matured later.As for being scared,no chance,Rock Newman was going to wait and let the fight build into a mega fight,sadly Golota ruined that.

[tobyh5]

considering that all heavies given that economic backdrop (Including Lewis) would have done the same thing.

Zero evidence or proof of such a thing and I think that is not true mate.

Facts as we know them.
They faced each other competitively once and Bowe was stopped.
They had a career trajectory that was similar and got into their positions for title challenging at the same time
It was set up for them to battle after the Holyfield/Ruddock fights, that was accepted as the winners squared off.
Lewis wanted the fight and would have taken it. Bowe decided not to take the fight.

[Old bones Ian]

this is my thing, its all 'what could of been' with Bowe.
When ever he's discussed it comes back to the He should of fought argument, but the reality is he didn't fight that many of the top heavies of his time.

[thepocketrocket]

considering that all heavies given that economic backdrop (Including Lewis) would have done the same thing.

Zero evidence or proof of such a thing and I think that is not true mate.

Facts as we know them.
They faced each other competitively once and Bowe was stopped.
They had a career trajectory that was similar and got into their positions for title challenging at the same time
It was set up for them to battle after the Holyfield/Ruddock fights, that was accepted as the winners squared off.
Lewis wanted the fight and would have taken it. Bowe decided not to take the fight.

Economics. with all due respect, you have too simplistic a view of it (no disrespect intended). Boxing isn't A fights B like the WWF. It is 'should A fight B for average cash and risk his fight with C for mega bucks?'

Therefore your narrative is daft.

[lillywhite14]

Always find the idea he 'ducked' Lewis because he was scared almost laughable, and a theory perpetuated by the Lewis fan club.

Lennox was talented but was no way near as big a draw (and payday) as the likes of Holy and Tyson.

Only an idiot would have fought Lewis for a piss poor pay day instead of going against those two (presuming he got through Holy 2)

Lewis would have brought a bigger payday than those he got against Dokes and Ferguson.

I always thought he didn't fight Lewis because he hated the idea of losing to him rather than he was afraid of him.

[reggaereggae]

Can someone outline the actual criteria for IBHOF induction? It all seems rather spurious to me.... Also what happens to the older inductees?

Surely something has to be removed with constant new inductees

Can't find much info off the website

http://www.ibhof.com/index.html

[thepocketrocket]

Always find the idea he 'ducked' Lewis because he was scared almost laughable, and a theory perpetuated by the Lewis fan club.

Lennox was talented but was no way near as big a draw (and payday) as the likes of Holy and Tyson.

Only an idiot would have fought Lewis for a piss poor pay day instead of going against those two (presuming he got through Holy 2)

Lewis would have brought a bigger payday than those he got against Dokes and Ferguson.

I always thought he didn't fight Lewis because he hated the idea of losing to him rather than he was afraid of him.

Yes, but I addressed this earlier. He would have been paid more for Lewis, but not enough to justify the risk. Ferguson and Dokes may well have been less, but they were no risk. Certainly not enough cash for Lewis to risk the Holy rematch cash bonanza.

It is a very simple concept, and is used throughout the sport

[jamesmcdonnell]

Always find the idea he 'ducked' Lewis because he was scared almost laughable, and a theory perpetuated by the Lewis fan club.

Lennox was talented but was no way near as big a draw (and payday) as the likes of Holy and Tyson.

Only an idiot would have fought Lewis for a piss poor pay day instead of going against those two (presuming he got through Holy 2)

I dunno, personally I think Bowe was scared of Lewis. Lewis obviously stopped him early in the Olympics; Bowe never even considered fighting him in the pros, even when they were both struggling somewhat in the mid 90s.

I think by the time Bowe was beating Holy he wasn't scared as he had deffo established himself as number one. He would have respected him as a live threat though, as everyone did.

This means that when you are doing thye sums, the Holy rematch made much better sense. He would have got paid more, had beaten Holy already and everyone expected him to win again. It was a no-brainer.

In the mid 90's he got the WBO which was supposed to be a springboard to better things. He got the Holy trilogy fight (another good business move), and I think Lewis would have happened but for Golota and the life changing beatings he got there.

Hence, to me, this idea Bowe was shitting himself over big bad Lewis is false.

Business my boy

Totally agree, I don't think Bowe was scared of anyone - considering he took a pasting from Golota in their first fight, and could have avoided the rematch, seems ridiculous to suggest his refusal to fight Lewis was cowardice - he just knew there were bigger money fights out there.

[thepocketrocket]

Nice one James.

This false narrative gets right on my nerves

[stujones]

Agree, Bowe wasn't scared of Holyfield. IMO. Holyfield vs Bowe 1 was such a great fight, they simply HAD to do it again and Bowe was entitled to a couple of easy ones before taking on Holyfield. Had there never been Holyfield 2 the next year then the point was a good one - but the result of fight 1 meant fight 2 was inevitable, and had Bowe fought Lewis instead Holyfield the arguements would have been that he was scared of Holyfield.

But my point on the other thread stands.... Is Azumah Nelson in? If not, why the eff not.