Tommy Burns, The Most Under Rated Heavyweight Champion

[HomicideHenry]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klrGFMKgclY

^^^Burns in his 7th title defense against British champion Gunner Moir

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUDIXdef9rU

^^^Burns in his 6th title defense against Bill Squires, first in their trilogy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEjOxxpdjjo

^^^Compilation of knockouts and training footage of Burns

For being 5'7" and fighting the majority of his career at 160-175 pounds, I am amazed at not only Burns amazing foot speed and defense, but his overall power. The first man, essentially, to challenge the world and held no barriers. His record of 14 title defenses wouldnt be broken until Louis defeated Abe Simon. It's a shame that there is not more film on him, and that the film most watch is that of his bout with Jack Johnson--- certainly, there must be pictures, articles, etc. of his many contests around the world.

[Caractacus]

Did you know that Tommy Burns actually had a longer reach then Jack Johnson?

[HomicideHenry]

Did you know that Tommy Burns actually had a longer reach then Jack Johnson?

I do find it rather amazing Burns all around physique.

I am nearly 5'10" and have a 73" reach, and Mr. Burns (3" shorter than me) had a 75" reach.

It certainly is of no disgrace that he lost to the Galveston Giant, but it is a major surprise (to me at least) that despite Burns excellent speed and foot work, etc. that he couldn't launch a successful offense or defensive strategy against Johnson. I think, in truth, Johnson was just such a powerful puncher that he hurt Burns early--- and Tommy simply never recovered from the start. Was nothing but sheer will, heart, determination, and alot of skill and speed that managed to keep Burns in the contest until the 14th round.

[L.A. kidd]

am I mistaken or was his real name noah brusso. and, I believe he was from Canada.
youre right about the only film people talk about, is the Johnson film, he took a terrible beating.
was Johnson that much greater, or burns just not up to being as good as he could be.

[dempseyfire]

Not sure he's under-rated as a heavyweight champion but definitely under-rated lb for lb. He gets completely forgotten in that discussion but he was a short light hw beating strong heavyweights.

[The Great John L]

I’m not sure I’d say he is the most under-rated, but based on current sentiment, which seems to put him near the bottom of HW champ lists I would say that he is under-rated. His diminutive size would have been very hard to overcome against most other HW champs, but as you noted he had good skills and could punch. I think he could have given Marciano a good fight, although I would expect the Rock would have worn him down late after getting busted up early.

[Ambling Alp II]

He was really good at darting in and out; he could land often without getting hit himself. You can watch several of his fights are on Youtube.
When comparing him against the other heavyweight champions (not WBS titleholders) you could make a case for him being rating higher than a few of them.
I think he belongs in the lower tier along with Hart, Willard, Carnera, Braddock, Johansson,Ellis,and Leon Spinks. You could make a pretty good argument that he was the best of the lot.

As fans we can be fickle; being one of "worst" heavyweight champions almost makes it look like you were an average fighter.

I agree that pound for pound, he is underrated. People just don't think of him much.

[Cap]

Tommy was a tough little SOB. His best fighting weight was around 175 so he could easily have defended his light heavyweight title (won from Phil. Jack O'Brien) for a couple of years if he had thought it worth anything. Besides being a good all-round athlete, he was smart both in the ring and out, handling his own career with the aid of front-men, and amassing a small fortune before losing it in the Crash of 29. Burns had talked seriously of fighting Stan Ketchel before Johnson thought of it, and only a bad injury suffered in a trolley-car accident cancelled plans to fight Sam Langford in 1910. Burns thought highly of old Sam, a fellow Canuck, and always figured he could have been the one to beat Johnson.

I believe Burns' biggest mistake was not asserting his claim to the world light-heavyweight title immediately after the Sydney debacle and possibly promoting bouts with the top men of the day like Sailor Burke, Bill Mackinnon, Jack Sullivan, Ketchel, Langford and Flynn. The fact he was already pretty well-heeled probably killed any desire in him to pursue that path.

[HomicideHenry]

Tommy was a tough little SOB. His best fighting weight was around 175 so he could easily have defended his light heavyweight title (won from Phil. Jack O'Brien) for a couple of years if he had thought it worth anything. Besides being a good all-round athlete, he was smart both in the ring and out, handling his own career with the aid of front-men, and amassing a small fortune before losing it in the Crash of 29. Burns had talked seriously of fighting Stan Ketchel before Johnson thought of it, and only a bad injury suffered in a trolley-car accident cancelled plans to fight Sam Langford in 1910. Burns thought highly of old Sam, a fellow Canuck, and always figured he could have been the one to beat Johnson.

I believe Burns' biggest mistake was not asserting his claim to the world light-heavyweight title immediately after the Sydney debacle and possibly promoting bouts with the top men of the day like Sailor Burke, Bill Mackinnon, Jack Sullivan, Ketchel, Langford and Flynn. The fact he was already pretty well-heeled probably killed any desire in him to pursue that path.

Because both he and O'Brien weighed under 180 (give or take) pounds when they fought that last time, Burns could of easily claimed the title from the Irishman. As a matter of fact, the issue was brought to his attention, and Burns said (more or less) that he didn't need additional titles, because quite frankly he had the biggest, most meaningful title in the world. Regardless, from that time onward O'Brien never again defended the LHW crown--- he felt deep within himself that he had no right anymore, to call himself the world 175 pound champion.

I do think a Burns/Ketchel bout would of been tremendous, had that of happened. Much as I love the Michigan Asassin I do not know if he would of had the power or the ability to of laid a glove on Burns, because the Little Giant was just so fast on his feet and had great head movement. Really, as hard as Burns hit who knows, he could of possibly even of stopped Ketchel. But--- like Ketchel*, I think had Burns claimed the 175 pound title, no one for several years could of came close to of beating him.

As for Burns, the heavyweight, I do know it was talked and negotiated for Burns to defend the title (France) against Sam McVey. So for those who say Burns was racist, or was avoiding colored fighters, etc. were way off base. The popular story of how Johnson chased Burns around the globe and forced him to fight is bull. Fact of business, when Burns was in London he was discussing terms to fight McVey and Langford--- Johnson shows up, and Burns said if he could get an 80/20 split he would do it. Of course, Johnson's managers agreed to this, etc. so in reality Johnson already had his title shot agreed upon long before Burns reached Australia. It was Johnson, if anything, who pulled a double cross--- cus he agreed to defend the title against Langford if he won it from Burns, which he did not.

[pbchron]

I believe Burns was a great fighter, he had one of the sharpest, most effective and powerful right hands I ever saw (pound for pound). Despite his size he proved to be a very dangerous heavyweight. Besides the match-ups, already mentioned, that he tried to make with black fighters which fell through, some of the well known black boxers he met before he was champ included Henry Peppers, Billy Moore and Billy Woods. He just happened to lose to an all-time great that was just too big in a courageous effort.

[Jan]

I think he is one of the most underrated HW champs. He won the tile und defeated it 11 times and gave jakc johnson tough fight. he dident duck black people likethe overrated dempsey.

[cfang]

I agree that Burns is underated. When you see film of him, he's really impressive and an exciting boxer to watch. Light on his feet, hands low, good movement and a fast puncher. You can see why he did so well in his time. All I can think of when seeing him in action is how incredible Johnson was to beat him like he was in effect nothing.

Johnson is my heavy all time number 3 and I think he's very underated on these forums.

[HomicideHenry]

I agree that Burns is underated. When you see film of him, he's really impressive and an exciting boxer to watch. Light on his feet, hands low, good movement and a fast puncher. You can see why he did so well in his time. All I can think of when seeing him in action is how incredible Johnson was to beat him like he was in effect nothing.

Johnson is my heavy all time number 3 and I think he's very underated on these forums.

I think, in the case of Burns, that for all his skills--- he reached the limit in overcoming size, in Johnson.

Had he fought almost anyone else on the planet at that time, I believe he would of been the victor.

Unfortunately for Burns, his legacy seems to be "he was too small", or he was fighting "bums", or he was just the first in a number of "white hopes"... none of these are right to one degree or another. When you compare him to others, you can see where his critics are wrong. We remember Sam Langford as the greatest boxer "pound for pound" that ever lived, but we also happen to forget that even he reached his limit in skill overcoming size when he met Harry Wills. I believe he managed only one successful fight out of their series.

We remember Bob Fitzsimmons as one of the top five greatest "pound for pound" boxers to of ever lived, but we forget that his skills also reached its limit in overcoming size, when he met Jim Jeffries. Mickey Walker, the former welterweight and middleweight champion, when he's being remembered at all is celebrated as one of the most exciting fighters of his era--- but even his skills and determination reached it's limit, when he was kayoed by Schmeling.

The list really goes on and on... but in the case of Burns, he is the only one I can think of who is deeply criticized for eventually losing to a larger, stronger, skilled man. Billy Conn, though he never won the middleweight title is considered one of the top ten middleweights of history--- along with being a top five light heavyweight champion--- is probably the closest to Burns as far as accomplishments goes. But he's never criticized for losing to Joe Louis (twice).

I think, people on a subconscious level, are unknowingly holding on to resentments over a century old when it comes to Burns--- for the criticisms of him were because of losing to Johnson (solely). Before losing to Johnson he was hailed as the "Little Giant" and not many pundits out there believed he size was that much of a disadvantage. After all, he utterly destroyed Bill Squires when most everyone thought Squires was indestructible.

Maybe the best way to view Burns, would be to figure on WHO he could of beaten from his own time. Outside of Johnson, who won the crown from him in 14 rounds--- there's not many I could think of who could have. I do know for a time Sam McVey was to fight Burns, but this fell through. I happen to think, despite McVey's enormity and power, that Burns would of been too fast to of applied a critical attack on him. I don't think Joe Jeanette could have, mainly because at the time Jeanette would of been too old. Possibly Langford could of done the deed--- but at the time, I believe he was only 165 pounds.*


*It is said that had Johnson beaten Burns, he was supposed to defend the title in England against Langford. However, Johnson reneged on his promise to do so, and instead went to Canada and fought an exhibition with Victor McLaglen.

[Broomhall]

Henry, I dont think people subconciously resent Burns. I think he may be under rated by many, but I would say that is just down to the fact that he was active in the depths of history. Nothing to do with resentment.

[Caractacus]

I dunno I seem to remember on the various ESPN Classic Boxing shows over the past 10 years or so
that use to deride Tommy Burns when his name was mentioned(from the tone in their voice)
or at least made a face when they mentioned his name.
especially the one dude with the chia-pet like hair.

[Cap]

For a lot of years his name wasn't even mentioned when TV sports shows listed the heavyweight champions. Even now he's virtually forgotten by media types who pose as know-it-alls. I heard one guy refer to him as the "Australian" champion for crying out loud.

He made his pile, lived well and lost it all before turning to religion. Died in the home of a friend back in Canada. Buried in an unmarked grave in the Vancouver area leaving behind a wife in California. Some friends collected money and put up a marker.

[HomicideHenry]

For a lot of years his name wasn't even mentioned when TV sports shows listed the heavyweight champions. Even now he's virtually forgotten by media types who pose as know-it-alls. I heard one guy refer to him as the "Australian" champion for crying out loud.

He made his pile, lived well and lost it all before turning to religion. Died in the home of a friend back in Canada. Buried in an unmarked grave in the Vancouver area leaving behind a wife in California. Some friends collected money and put up a marker.

I never knew that of Burns... that is even more sad than I could ever of realized.

I will say, though, that he did have alot of bad luck and unfortunes after being champion. The most well known of these was promoting the McCarty fight with Arthur Pelkey. When McCarty died, later that night the Tommy Burns Arena was set on fire. I don't think Burns had the heart (let alone the funds) after that, to be involved in boxing to find new "white hopes" or on much any level.

I did hear a rumor, though, that Burns had a wife named Polly and that she was the self-proclaimed "womens world champion" and worked the carnival circuit.

[Cap]

Actually, for a time he did do some promoting after the Pelkey-McCarty fiasco. After selling off his habidashery business in Calgary he travelled around, took some boxers to Australia. Promoted Harry Wills in a fight or two in New Orleans in 1916 and dabbled in real estate. Had a pub in England for a time. Was considered pretty well off until the Crash of '29.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Under rated for what dodging dark skinned fighter's

[HomicideHenry]

Under rated for what dodging dark skinned fighter's

You dont know much on Burns, considering the first opponent he had was black, and fought others who were black.

[Caractacus]

Under rated for what dodging dark skinned fighter's

Sounds like you may have been the person that former American president Harry S. Truman had in mind when he once said

"He were born ignorant,
and has been losing ground ever since !".

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Most Overrated

[Tinnie]

For a lot of years his name wasn't even mentioned when TV sports shows listed the heavyweight champions. Even now he's virtually forgotten by media types who pose as know-it-alls. I heard one guy refer to him as the "Australian" champion for crying out loud.

I certainly dont know the context of the person who referred to him as Australian champion.... but there was an Australian WW during the 40s who took the name Tommy Burns after his Canadian predecessor and was very popular...

[cfang]

I don't think hes underrated as a heavy but defo as a light heavy. If you count him in that division then he moves up the charts quite a bit. he weighed 168 1/2 against johnson.

Where does he rate in an all time lt heavy list for example? does he make the top ten?

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Tommy was a tough little SOB. His best fighting weight was around 175 so he could easily have defended his light heavyweight title (won from Phil. Jack O'Brien) for a couple of years if he had thought it worth anything. Besides being a good all-round athlete, he was smart both in the ring and out, handling his own career with the aid of front-men, and amassing a small fortune before losing it in the Crash of 29. Burns had talked seriously of fighting Stan Ketchel before Johnson thought of it, and only a bad injury suffered in a trolley-car accident cancelled plans to fight Sam Langford in 1910. Burns thought highly of old Sam, a fellow Canuck, and always figured he could have been the one to beat Johnson.

I believe Burns' biggest mistake was not asserting his claim to the world light-heavyweight title immediately after the Sydney debacle and possibly promoting bouts with the top men of the day like Sailor Burke, Bill Mackinnon, Jack Sullivan, Ketchel, Langford and Flynn. The fact he was already pretty well-heeled probably killed any desire in him to pursue that path.

Because both he and O'Brien weighed under 180 (give or take) pounds when they fought that last time, Burns could of easily claimed the title from the Irishman. As a matter of fact, the issue was brought to his attention, and Burns said (more or less) that he didn't need additional titles, because quite frankly he had the biggest, most meaningful title in the world. Regardless, from that time onward O'Brien never again defended the LHW crown--- he felt deep within himself that he had no right anymore, to call himself the world 175 pound champion.

I do think a Burns/Ketchel bout would of been tremendous, had that of happened. Much as I love the Michigan Asassin I do not know if he would of had the power or the ability to of laid a glove on Burns, because the Little Giant was just so fast on his feet and had great head movement. Really, as hard as Burns hit who knows, he could of possibly even of stopped Ketchel. But--- like Ketchel*, I think had Burns claimed the 175 pound title, no one for several years could of came close to of beating him.

As for Burns, the heavyweight, I do know it was talked and negotiated for Burns to defend the title (France) against Sam McVey. So for those who say Burns was racist, or was avoiding colored fighters, etc. were way off base. The popular story of how Johnson chased Burns around the globe and forced him to fight is bull. Fact of business, when Burns was in London he was discussing terms to fight McVey and Langford--- Johnson shows up, and Burns said if he could get an 80/20 split he would do it. Of course, Johnson's managers agreed to this, etc. so in reality Johnson already had his title shot agreed upon long before Burns reached Australia. It was Johnson, if anything, who pulled a double cross--- cus he agreed to defend the title against Langford if he won it from Burns, which he did not.

So just to clarify how many BLACK fighter's did Burns face in his career before winning the Heavyweight title and after winning the title :?? :?? :??
because fighter's who used the colour line are over-rated in my book its like being featherweight champ but refuse to fight MEXICAN'S.