Roy Jones jr

[cfang]

In my view Jones is a hard one to work out but for me the three best fighters apart from jones around the middle/lt heavy area from the early 90s were Hopkins, macallum and toney. All three were a step above the next group which would be benn, eubank, watson, collins etc. Watson fought mccallum and was koed, collins fought him too and was beaten.

Jones beat Mccallum, hopkins and toney! He then took it easy as a lt heavy for years which damaged his resume and then came the great ruiz win, then it was tbh a slow downhill for him.

Id say even considering this he'd be a match for any middle/lt heavy in history and it's possible he'd have beaten anyone including srr, greb, monzon hagler et all. However he's step below those guys because of his resume.

In terms of middles/ly heavys beating top 5 heavys etc. Off the top of my head how about these?

Fitzimmons beating Peter Maher, Corbett
Langford beating mcvey, jeannette, wills, gunboat smith etc
Greb beating gibbons, miske, brennon
Loughran beating sharkey, max baer, Godoy?

Not checked these out properly but they are naturally smaller men beating top ranked heavys of their time surely?

[orbtastic]

Walker, Moore and Spinks all had good wins at heavyweight.

Toney also beat Ruiz but there's the cloud of banned substances over that one. I think it's fair to say he'd not been anywhere near middleweight for some time either before that fight. He also stopped Holyfield.

[Ambling Alp II]

I think we have to look a little closer at some of these fights that people have mentioned recently.

Toney's win over Ruiz officially doesn't count at all because Toney got caught used banned drugs.
Toney's win over a Holyfield is meaningless. Holyfield was way over the hill.
Ruiz's win and draw against Holyfield is the same thing. Holyfield was way over the hill. Not to mention the draw was a terrible decision that should have gone to Holyfield.
Ruiz's win over Kirk Johnson was due to Johnson stupidly hitting Ruiz low and the referee buying Ruiz's act of being hurt. Ruiz did nothing in that fight.
Jones win over McCallum doesn't mean much. McCallum was way over the hill.
Jones really shouldn't get a ton of credit for beating Hopkins. Hopkins was inexperienced and yet to beat anyone. He was not to be the fighter that he would become.

Jones should get a lot of credit for beating Toney convincingly which is his biggest win. Ruiz and Hopkins are nice wins.

He is underrated by some people. Some people were greatly disappointed in his refusal to fight decent competition for several years.
He is overrated by some who are obsessed by his natural ability and overrated some of his wins.

[HomicideHenry]

Every single elite fighter has been labelled overrated by somebody.

The only elite fighter that I have never seen written or heard spoken was overrated was Sugar Ray Robinson.

Kind of difficult for anyone to really believe that Robinson was overrated, considering the myriad of challengers he defeated, and how many linear titles he won. I don't know of anyone else, who has that many wins over HOF quality opponents as he does. From 147 to 175, he made an awful lot of people look silly.

Far as MW's go, I'd argue that Greb is rated over Robinson. Far as WW's go, Robinson was the best. P4P, I'd argue that Armstrong and Langford rate over him. But outside of those names--- Robinson is heads and shoulders above the rest. I mean for crying out loud, he beat Jake LaMotta 5 out of 6 times. I can't think of that many middleweights who could of replicated that. He's one of the very few fighters in history, who was equally as great a puncher as he was a tactician.

I will say, though, that yes it does get annoying when on television whenever they do talk boxing it's always either Robinson or Ali being talked about--- over and over, again and again, "the greatest of all time", etc. and subconsciously it just turns some of the more hardcore guys off. Cus we know a lot more, and know better, than general fans. We take the time to actually know the history and the principle players.

But when it comes right down to it, no matter the list... Robinson is always going to be in the top five. Very few fighters can say the same. If boxing had a Mount Rushmore... it would be probably be Langford, Robinson, and Pep.

[SamWise72]

homohenry (no pun intended, just find it funny)

Just out of interest, what do you imagine a pun is?

[HomicideHenry]

homohenry (no pun intended, just find it funny)

Just out of interest, what do you imagine a pun is?

It would only be a pun if it were true that I wasn't heterosexual.

And even at that, it would be a rather bigoted one.

[Perseus]

Gentleman,

If the former middleweight isn't stepping in the ring at 190+ and the heavyweight is not as big as Ruiz, in his prime and top 5 of the day it just does not replicate what Jones did.
Also I never said anything about a belt and neither did HomicideHenry. He said top 5 heavyweight and I simply went with what he said at no point did I suggest a win that replicates what Jones did needs to include winning a heavyweight belt.


Heavyweight Corbett probably wasn't 190 himself.
Fitzsimmons did not step up as far in weight or face as large an opponent.
Same goes for Maher, if I go look up his weight I suspect that Maher will have been smaller than Jones himself was in the ring.
Toss Fitzsimmons name from the list.
Spinks was never a middleweight titleholder, discard his name too.

If I start researching the fights I'm sure some more of them aren't going to be a replication of what Jones did either.

If people are persistent I'm sure we'll get some instances where others have replicated what Jones did but it probably doesn't get to dozens and dozens.

[Perseus]

In response to Perseus:
Well as usual Homocide says things that are silly; though he never actually said the guy had to be a titlist.
However it is a deceiving that Jones beat a top 5 heavyweight. It wasn't his fault, that Ruiz probably wouldn't have been a top 5 heavyweight in a previous era, but it is still true that he didn't have to beat that good of a fighter.

The path that Jones took really was viable for most of boxing history. Before the 1980s, there wasn't even a Super Middleweight division. So if you were a middleweight, you had to stay that way or bulk up to light heavyweight. Most never bothered. It also wasn't worth it to try to beat a really good heavyweight. A top 5 HW in previous eras were much better than John Ruiz.

Jones, could gradually move up in weight classes and then take advantage of a weak HW era. It's not like he moved up from MW to fighting Ruiz overnight; he had not been a middleweight for 9 years when he fought Ruiz.

Having said all that, it was a nice win.

A top 5 heavyweight in previous times could have been and sometimes was someone who weighed 175 lbs, far enough back and it could be somebody who was 161lbs.
Jones didn't have that luxury, he had to move himself up to greater than 190 then face a guy that was over 220.
You don't get to dismiss Ruiz as a product of a weak era then say others did the same thing by beating heavyweights that were 40lbs or so smaller than Ruiz. If we're talking about the era it goes both ways.
Jones era was an era where 220lb heavies are the small heavyweights.


Any previous era win over anybody that would not be a heavyweight in Jones era is not the same thing as Jones did and neither is beating someone who is significantly smaller than Ruiz.

[crusader]

Ruiz's win over Kirk Johnson was due to Johnson stupidly hitting Ruiz low and the referee buying Ruiz's act of being hurt. Ruiz did nothing in that fight.

Ruiz was ahead on each card and deserved to be. He also should've been credited with two knockdowns that Cortez never called.

[Ambling Alp II]

In response to Perseus:
Well as usual Homocide says things that are silly; though he never actually said the guy had to be a titlist.
However it is a deceiving that Jones beat a top 5 heavyweight. It wasn't his fault, that Ruiz probably wouldn't have been a top 5 heavyweight in a previous era, but it is still true that he didn't have to beat that good of a fighter.

The path that Jones took really was viable for most of boxing history. Before the 1980s, there wasn't even a Super Middleweight division. So if you were a middleweight, you had to stay that way or bulk up to light heavyweight. Most never bothered. It also wasn't worth it to try to beat a really good heavyweight. A top 5 HW in previous eras were much better than John Ruiz.

Jones, could gradually move up in weight classes and then take advantage of a weak HW era. It's not like he moved up from MW to fighting Ruiz overnight; he had not been a middleweight for 9 years when he fought Ruiz.

Having said all that, it was a nice win.

A top 5 heavyweight in previous times could have been and sometimes was someone who weighed 175 lbs, far enough back and it could be somebody who was 161lbs.
Jones didn't have that luxury, he had to move himself up to greater than 190 then face a guy that was over 220.
You don't get to dismiss Ruiz as a product of a weak era then say others did the same thing by beating heavyweights that were 40lbs or so smaller than Ruiz. If we're talking about the era it goes both ways.
Jones era was an era where 220lb heavies are the small heavyweights.


Any previous era win over anybody that would not be a heavyweight in Jones era is not the same thing as Jones did and neither is beating someone who is significantly smaller than Ruiz.

What I am saying is that Ruiz would not have been a top 5 heavyweight in any previous era regardless of how big the top 5 were at any given time.
Jones had the luxury of gradually moving up; he could fight at 168 for awhile. Up until the 1980s, a middleweight would have to go all the way up to light heavyweight, which didn't make much sense to since there was usually wasn't more money or prestige at light heavy than middle.
Most importantly, he had the luxury of finding a weak HW title holder. There have been plenty of heavyweights much smaller than Ruiz who were much better than him and would have beaten him.
Doesn't matter if 220 pound heavyweights were small. It was still a weak era for heavyweights.

Not saying that this easy for Jones to do; however it's not some phenomenal accomplishment.

[Ambling Alp II]

Ruiz's win over Kirk Johnson was due to Johnson stupidly hitting Ruiz low and the referee buying Ruiz's act of being hurt. Ruiz did nothing in that fight.

Ruiz was ahead on each card and deserved to be. He also should've been credited with two knockdowns that Cortez never called.

Ruiz looked horrible in this. I honestly don't recall the two non knockdowns that you are referring to, but I do remember that Ruiz looked awful. The acting job he did with the low blows was shameful. Though no legend, Johnson was clearly the better fighter. However, he stupidly hit low, and shouldn't have even considered throwing a body punch after the last deduction.

If Johnson wouldn't have fought so stupid, he would have won.

[crusader]

Ruiz's win over Kirk Johnson was due to Johnson stupidly hitting Ruiz low and the referee buying Ruiz's act of being hurt. Ruiz did nothing in that fight.

Ruiz was ahead on each card and deserved to be. He also should've been credited with two knockdowns that Cortez never called.

Ruiz looked horrible in this. I honestly don't recall the two non knockdowns that you are referring to, but I do remember that Ruiz looked awful. The acting job he did with the low blows was shameful. Though no legend, Johnson was clearly the better fighter. However, he stupidly hit low, and shouldn't have even considered throwing a body punch after the last deduction.

If Johnson wouldn't have fought so stupid, he would have won.

The blown knockdown calls came in the 9th round, and Johnson conceded that he was dropped on one of the occasions. Ruiz looked mediocre and the bout was very ugly, but I felt he was generally getting the better of it.

[elmersalsa]

I know that we have talked about the great Roy Jones, Jr and his legacy, and all that. As I mentioned years earlier, he was a fine boxer with extraordinary boxing talent. The SCARY PART OF HIS ARSENAL, was that, he was one of the rare fighters that had the combination of SPEED AND POWER, no matter what weight class he was or going up into another weight class. It was like it did not affect him at all. Not too many fighters could do that. Have both assets intact even though going up in weight.

My problem with him was, despite having all that great talent, he never challenged the toughest opponents around, especially at 168lbs and middleweight: Nigel Benn, Chris Eubank, Michael Nunn, Gerald McClellan, Julian Jackson, etc, etc, etc. It was like it took some of his great legacy, if he would have fought them in the90s and beat most of them, He would have been at least a top ten or top twenty atg, but he did not. He looked for the EASY WAY OUT.

His win against John Ruiz WAS NOT SOMETHING TO BE AWED ABOUT. Ruiz to me, do not even make the top 100 heavyweights of all time. A great win for Jones, but, it was not like a win like the great Bob Fitzsimmons when he gave James J. Corbett, a great heavyweight, or at least a very good one, the solar plexus punch. That to me, was more imperssive because of the magnitude of the fight. That is why I have Fitzsimmons in the top 15 greatest boxers that ever lived. Just because of that historical win.

If Roy would have challenged Lennox Lewis, and beat him, then, I would have not had anything else to say. Right r now, we would have had him in the big argument and discussion of who is the greatest fighter pound peR pound ever: Henry Armstrong, Sugar Ray Robinson or Jones

[dr_devious]

Roy Jones emulated the other greats mentioned on this thread (Fitz, Greb, Walker, Langford, Moore) in stepping up in weight and beating bigger men at light heavy and heavyweight, but he hasn't got anywhere near the depth of resume that these past greats had. That said he did beat the other two best MW / SMW fighters of his generation in Hopkins and Toney, and fought and beat most of the other men of his era. His rapid decline and vulnerability in his latter fights count against him as well, in his prime he was a great fighter though

[elmersalsa]

Definitely, to me, he is top 100 all time great. In what position??? I would say around the 60s to early 80s spot to sau at least.

He is not top fifty p4p atg. No way!

[dr_devious]

The other five I mentioned must all be top 20 lb for lb, Jones doesn't come close to having their resumes, probably 50-60.

[man]

homohenry (no pun intended, just find it funny)

Just out of interest, what do you imagine a pun is?

i agree, there is just this thing here to
abbreviate nick names and this would
be a quite funny one ... whatever it was
a lame joke, but sometimes these are
just funny. well, i admit I find it funny.

[man]

homohenry (no pun intended, just find it funny)

Just out of interest, what do you imagine a pun is?

It would only be a pun if it were true that I wasn't heterosexual.
And even at that, it would be a rather bigoted one.

thnx for taking this lightly ... :) ...

[Ezzard]

Terrible era for boxing. His career almost defines the worst aspects of the sport.

He was good. But I couldn't put him close to a top 10 at 175.

[Hairy Arse]

His era wasn't any less weak than Bob Foster's was, and the latter seems to be a consensus ATG at that weight (I've seen some even consider him the greatest at that weight, which is just absurd and illogical to me.)

The biggest stain against him is his blatant PED use.

[Tuan_Jim]

Why do people keep saying that John Ruiz was a 'top 5 heavyweight'?

Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
David Tua
Vitali Klitschko
Wladimir Klitschko

There, 5 men who would whack him in 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2003. Not to mention the waning Evander Holyfield who beat him the two times Joe Cortez wasn't backing him up, Chris Byrd who would frustrate the heck out of him, and Corrie Sanders who would have a genuine shot at blitzing him quickly (but would likely get roughed up by Ruiz if he didn't).

I was impressed by the overrated Jones beating Ruiz, and relished the spectacle of speed & talent dazzling size & strength, but to claim the Quiet Man was a top 5 heavyweight does make you sound like you belong on the WBA board of control. Sorry if that's too strong an insult for a message board.

[HomicideHenry]

Why do people keep saying that John Ruiz was a 'top 5 heavyweight'?

Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
David Tua
Vitali Klitschko
Wladimir Klitschko

There, 5 men who would whack him in 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2003. Not to mention the waning Evander Holyfield who beat him the two times Joe Cortez wasn't backing him up, Chris Byrd who would frustrate the heck out of him, and Corrie Sanders who would have a genuine shot at blitzing him quickly (but would likely get roughed up by Ruiz if he didn't).

I was impressed by the overrated Jones beating Ruiz, and relished the spectacle of speed & talent dazzling size & strength, but to claim the Quiet Man was a top 5 heavyweight does make you sound like you belong on the WBA board of control. Sorry if that's too strong an insult for a message board.

During the times, in which Ruiz was a WBA champion, he was often rated by RING and other organisations as being in the all-around top five. Granted, he would of lost to any of those men listed--- though I'll be honest--- I think Ruiz may of been competitive with Tyson, only for the reason at that stage Tyson was more of a mauler and was only 'good' for a few rounds. The echo of Tyson against the prime Ruiz, would of been somewhat competitive. Tyson had a horrible knack for allowing men to tie him up, even at his best.

From 2001-2006 Ruiz was rated (year end ratings) by RING magazine as follows:

2001- #7 in the world
2002- #5 in the world
2003- #7 in the world
2004- #2 in the world (Byrd was #1 and Rahman #3)
2005- #5 in the world
2006- #10 in the world

From 2007 until his retirement he didn't make the RING's top ten. However from 2001-2006, when you average out the ratings, he does fit into that 'top five' category as far as RING goes, a syndication many will say is more legit and honest than actual organisations.

As for Ruiz's ratings in the three (IBF/WBC/WBO) according to the WBO Ruiz wasn't rated in the top 15 in the years of 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, or 2006. Which is rather interesting considering Ruiz was completely disregarded, and yet Joe Mesi and some lesser quality fighters were in those rankings. Although I will say, the WBO does have THE best website as far as design and archives is concerned--- the IBF, WBC, WBA have horrible websites. To get their rankings, one is best off to use archives from FightNews OR if you are a pack rat like I used to be, just open up some old issues of KO or Boxing Monthly to get ratings from the other organisations.

http://www.tbrb.org/archives/

^This website in the coming years (if it lasts so long) will be very informative to fans of the future, when looking back at ratings. This site bases its ratings system strictly off the opinion of fans and historians and experts, rather than biased organisations who have money to gain from pushing certain opponents. Their rankings only go back to 2012, though.

[Othro]

His era wasn't any less weak than Bob Foster's was, and the latter seems to be a consensus ATG at that weight (I've seen some even consider him the greatest at that weight, which is just absurd and illogical to me.)

The biggest stain against him is his blatant PED use.

Yes! This .

[Ambling Alp II]

Foster's competition at light heavy wasn't that good but it was better than Jones. Some of Jones' opponents were just wretched.

[Ezzard]

Agree.