dr_devious wrote:How many heavyweights in history would have beaten him........Ali, Holmes, Johnson, Foreman, a peak Tyson or Liston maybe.
... and Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman. Come on.
McCall and Rahman are both big punching heavyweights 16.7 stone - 17 stone each. Any fighter who gets clocked by a big punching 17 stone heavyweight will be in trouble. Also McCall and Rahman were fighting for the World title.....they were both in the best condition of their lives and up for this fight......Lewis wasn't.
Its no secret that Lewis was under-prepared for these fights and underestimated these two fighters. Wasn't it the Rahman fight were Lewis was busy filming Oceans 11 in Amercia?
Even so Lewis fought them both again and won each fight by stoppage. What more can he do than that?
Also Lewis never ducked any fighter.
Yes they aren't great losses to have but Joe Louis was KO'ed before he won the title, Ezzard Charles was stopped befoe and after winning the title and so was Jersey Joe Walcott.
Decagon wrote:If a big-punching heavyweight can knock out Lewis, why wouldn't you consider the possibility of him losing to Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey or Rocky Marciano, let alone Buddy Baer, Jack Sharkey, Abe Simon, Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, Riddick Bowe or Gerry Cooney? I think that Lewis is better than those last seven fighters, but I couldn't see him going 7-0 against them.
when Lewis was focused, he was capable of beating many a great fighter. rahman and mccall were mistakes, lewis corrected the mistakes and beat many good men. on form, lewis was great at getting rid of dangerous fighters - when he had that balance of intensity and fear, he destroyed guys like golota, grant, ruddock. when he didn't give a damn, he was given a painful lesson
I know that McCall and Rahman beat him, but my argument is that no-one ever beat him when he was on his game and taking it seriously, as he proved when he mullered them both in re-matches. When he was in against a dangerous opponent / big puncher e.g. Razor Ruddock etc he was at his best, he simply dominated them.
I usualy make it a point not to post without reading any of the other posts on the board, but this topic realy gets to me. How could anyone doubt Lewis' greatness. He only had one real loss and even in that fight he beat the count and wasn't allowed to continue as a champ should. The McCall fight was bullshit and Lewis was totaly robbed and should have been allowed to continue, and even though he would have lost anyway, he beat the count in the Rahman fight. Either way he still dominated the division for 10 years, beat every fighter put in front of him and the only reason he didn't fight Holyfield, Tyson, Bowe,or Moorer in their primes is cuse they all ducked him. And thats all I got to say about that. Lewis, top 3 heavy of all time.
The Scranton Assassin wrote:I usualy make it a point not to post without reading any of the other posts on the board, but this topic realy gets to me. How could anyone doubt Lewis' greatness. He only had one real loss and even in that fight he beat the count and wasn't allowed to continue as a champ should. The McCall fight was bullshit and Lewis was totaly robbed and should have been allowed to continue, and even though he would have lost anyway, he beat the count in the Rahman fight. Either way he still dominated the division for 10 years, beat every fighter put in front of him and the only reason he didn't fight Holyfield, Tyson, Bowe,or Moorer in their primes is cuse they all ducked him. And thats all I got to say about that. Lewis, top 3 heavy of all time.
The Scranton Assassin wrote:I usualy make it a point not to post without reading any of the other posts on the board, but this topic realy gets to me. How could anyone doubt Lewis' greatness. He only had one real loss and even in that fight he beat the count and wasn't allowed to continue as a champ should. The McCall fight was bullshit and Lewis was totaly robbed and should have been allowed to continue, and even though he would have lost anyway, he beat the count in the Rahman fight. Either way he still dominated the division for 10 years, beat every fighter put in front of him and the only reason he didn't fight Holyfield, Tyson, Bowe,or Moorer in their primes is cuse they all ducked him. And thats all I got to say about that. Lewis, top 3 heavy of all time.
Totally robbed? Hilarious.
why is that? He was up and had his hands up to his face and was ready to go. I'm talkin about the McCall fight now not Rahman.
The Scranton Assassin wrote:I usualy make it a point not to post without reading any of the other posts on the board, but this topic realy gets to me. How could anyone doubt Lewis' greatness. He only had one real loss and even in that fight he beat the count and wasn't allowed to continue as a champ should. The McCall fight was bullshit and Lewis was totaly robbed and should have been allowed to continue, and even though he would have lost anyway, he beat the count in the Rahman fight. Either way he still dominated the division for 10 years, beat every fighter put in front of him and the only reason he didn't fight Holyfield, Tyson, Bowe,or Moorer in their primes is cuse they all ducked him. And thats all I got to say about that. Lewis, top 3 heavy of all time.
Totally robbed? Hilarious.
why is that? He was up and had his hands up to his face and was ready to go. I'm talkin about the McCall fight now not Rahman.
What about the drunken stumble into the ref? Or doesn't that count?
so what?it easy to say that about lennox,but the defeats were years apart.many other heavies were stopped twice in the same length of time.
johnson's defences were mainly against poor opposition.dempsey hardly defended.turn the question round and would willie meehan realistically beat any of the greats?yet he beat dempsey TWICE.yeah but he didn't knock him out blah de blah.
Lennox was past his prime, and out of condition when he lost to Rahman, and may have been able to continue and recover against McCall.
All the heavyweights got beat, wasnt Ali at his prime when he got beat by Frazier. Wasnt he 29 years old at the time? As the other guys said, Dempsey, Johnson and Louis got beat by guys in their prime. Would Willie Meehan or Marvin Hart beat Lennox Lewis? No chance. Would Rocky Marciano even have beat Lewis? No chance.
why is that? He was up and had his hands up to his face and was ready to go. I'm talkin about the McCall fight now not Rahman.
What about the drunken stumble into the ref? Or doesn't that count?
Hmmm. for some reason I don't remember it that way, but so what. the champ should be given the benefit of the doubt and allowed to continue at least once. I'm mean come on. What if Marquez wasn't allowed to continue against Paquio. He was clearly in alot of trouble but was allowed to go on and fight to a draw. Or how about Archie Moore vrs Yavone durrele or Brewster vrs Klitscko or Douglas - Tyson or Robinson - Graziano or Tunney - Dempsey and so on and so on. Bottom line is he was good to go and wasn't even given a chance and thats bullshit. I mean this wasn't just some bullshit journeyman fight. This was for the title and an undefeated record was at stake. It just pisses me off that when folks talk badly about Lewis they point to this fight and its bullshit.
The Scranton Assassin wrote:
What about the drunken stumble into the ref? Or doesn't that count?
Hmmm. for some reason I don't remember it that way, but so what. the champ should be given the benefit of the doubt and allowed to continue at least once. I'm mean come on. What if Marquez wasn't allowed to continue against Paquio. He was clearly in alot of trouble but was allowed to go on and fight to a draw. Or how about Archie Moore vrs Yavone durrele or Brewster vrs Klitscko or Douglas - Tyson or Robinson - Graziano or Tunney - Dempsey and so on and so on. Bottom line is he was good to go and wasn't even given a chance and thats bullshit. I mean this wasn't just some bullshit journeyman fight. This was for the title and an undefeated record was at stake. It just pisses me off that when folks talk badly about Lewis they point to this fight and its bullshit.
Sounds like you haven't actually seen Lewis vs McCall.
i would hate to call lewis a "legend" because i think he came around in a rather week division that made him appear better then he was. his win against holyfield is sketchy and he beat an OVER OVER OVER the hill tyson. i think his talent, and his domination albeit skeptical omination, do make him a great fighter. he is top 25 imo. i would have liked to see him fight more big fights against major league hof fighters, but he didnt, which is not really fair to blame him for since those fighters were few and far between. i dont think lewis is a legend but i think hes a great champ. top 20 Maybe..but def. top 25. and i know im in the minority when i rank him outside top 15
I downloaded the lewis v. bruno fight and dam, I could not get passed the 2nd round. Definitly not how I remember the fight. When I seen this fight on tv live, it was an awsome fight, with a great ending. Seeing the fight again reminded me how raw Lewis was at the time, he just looked very beatable and bruno almost did win.
dr_devious wrote:Lennox was past his prime, and out of condition when he lost to Rahman, and may have been able to continue and recover against McCall.
All the heavyweights got beat, wasnt Ali at his prime when he got beat by Frazier. Wasnt he 29 years old at the time? As the other guys said, Dempsey, Johnson and Louis got beat by guys in their prime. Would Willie Meehan or Marvin Hart beat Lennox Lewis? No chance. Would Rocky Marciano even have beat Lewis? No chance.
louis was in his prime vs rahman
- so wut if ali was 29, he was coming off a 3 year layoff and looked noticeably slower
Would Rocky Marciano even have beat Lewis? No chance.
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:-johnson lost to hart in his prime
Do you really think that Johnson was in his prime in 1905? And considering the controversial nature of that decision, does it really compare to Lewis being knocked out by Hasim Rahman?
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:-louis lost to schmeling in his prime
Louis definitely wasn't in his prime. He'd only been fighting professionally for two years.
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:-dempsey lost to meehan in his prime
Huh? You call 1918 Dempsey's "prime"? And pretty much every 4- or 6-round fight in those days was a glorified exhibition.
dempsey was defintley in his prime in 1918, but the meehan fight was only 4 rounds and it was a clear robbery
louis was in his prime vs schmeling, he was coming off a KO win vs baer which louis himself said it was his best preformance. he may have been in his prime vs schmeling but he was still young and had a lot to learn and he corrected his mistake and annihalted schmeling in rematch
Brockton, i agree that Ali was a bit slower after his lay off but at 29 i'd still consider him to be pretty damn close to his peak. Also, what makes you think Rocky Marciano would beat Lennox Lewis? He'd be too small to get anywhere near Lennox, and although he was as tough as hell theres no way he could handle Lennox's power. As you can tell, I'm a Lennox fan so my views might be a bit biased :)
Marciano would have gotten destroyed by Lewis. That exaggeratted crouch would have made it harder for him to land on Lewis who knew how to use every inch of his height. The second Marciano tried to spring up Lewis would catch him with one straight right hand and finish him.
theone wrote:Marciano would have gotten destroyed by Lewis. That exaggeratted crouch would have made it harder for him to land on Lewis who knew how to use every inch of his height. The second Marciano tried to spring up Lewis would catch him with one straight right hand and finish him.
Hahahahaha. Is that the same Lummox Lewis who was KO'd twice by a couple of mediocrities?
if lennox were to win, i would bet on a decision not a KO.
lennox was a cautious fighter, and against big punchers he never went in wild. he stayed back and boxed using his height and reach. however marcianos non stop workrate and aggresion and inside fighting skills i will prevail him in the end. i cant see lennox being able to deal with marciano in the champpoionship rounds. marciano in his crouch will make it almost impossible for lennox to hit him without lennox making himself off balance or vunerable. charley goldman trained marciano to fight in the crouch. the crouch was just defensive, it was also an offensive crouch. by 1953, goldman had taught marciano how to throw effective punches from that crouch without being off balance.
i feel a foreman would get to marciano, but not lewis
Decagon wrote:How can you say that Marciano was a bigger puncher than Oliver McCall or Hasim Rahman? I'm not specifically disagreeing with you (now), but I'd like to hear your reasoning.
i didnt say he hit harder, i said he was a GREATER puncher.
joe louis wasnt the hardest hitter who ever lived, but he was the greatest puncher of all time.
no, greatest puncher centers around power, handspeed, accuracy, combinations, punch output, two fisted power, punching arsenal, body attack, punching effectiveness, etc. what defies a great puncher is all around punching catgories.
marciano was clearly a greater puncher than mccail and rahman
