Top 50 Middleweights of All-Time

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Why is Harry Greb ranked higher than Stanley Ketchel? Or Bob Fitzsimmons? How can you compare guys from that era with Ray Robinson, Carlos Monzon and Marvin Hagler? Its almost impossible to compare, pure conjecture

Ketchel and Fitzsimmons suck. That's why.

ketcel would beat bernard hopkins IMO

[dalek]

Why is Harry Greb ranked higher than Stanley Ketchel? Or Bob Fitzsimmons? How can you compare guys from that era with Ray Robinson, Carlos Monzon and Marvin Hagler? Its almost impossible to compare, pure conjecture

Ketchel and Fitzsimmons suck. That's why.

i'd love for some greb film to turn up.how do you know how he looks on film?the sparring footage does him no favours,i'd love you to have to explain it away.wheras philly jack at 50 still looks decent yet the unskilled john ruizesq of the middles cleaned his clock.

[dr_devious]

Decagon, why do Fitzsimmons and Ketchel suck? Surely they were the best middleweights of their generation and as such must be ranked in the top 10 middleweights of all time, at least? They are both all time great fighters, in my opinion.

[dr_devious]

Ketchel's era included some pretty strong competition e.g. Billy Papke, Joe Thomas, the Sullivans etc which has to make it a strong era for middleweights. I've seen clips of Stanley Ketchel and although he looked a bit crude from what i saw he was extremely fast, and a renowned power puncher.
The middleweight division may have been weak in Fitzsimmons era but give the guy credit for winning titles in 3 divisions and beating a lot of heavyweights.
Monzon and Hagler apart, i'd back Ketchel and Fitzsimmons against any of the middleweights in the last 40 years if they had the modern training techniques. Id back either of them to KO Roy Jones in any case

[dalek]

ketchel ko 10 roy jones
ketchel ko 7 lloyd marshall
fitz ko 8 roy jones
fitz ko 12 lloyd marshall

[dr_devious]

Corbett was a pioneer of boxing and to compare him with Caveman Lee is absurd. Its extremely difficult to compare fighters across eras, obviously training and boxing methodology has improved tremendously and will keep on improving. The old time fighters are gifted enough to have adapted had they been tought, that why they were champions in their day.
I've never seen any clips of Fitz and only short ones of Ketchel and I agree he looked crude, but frighteningly fast and powerful for a middleweight. The guys of the earlier eras were also very tough.
I'd back Ketchel to knock out all but the elite middleweights of the last 100 years - Robinson, Monzon, Hagler, Greb and the rock hard e.g. La Motta.
Based on Fitz's accomplishments, id say the same about him too.
Obviously if they fought in the modern era their styles would have to change but im convinced they would.
Likewise, how many modern middleweights could have fought the long fights that Ketch and Fitz did?

[DoubleM]

I would actually put Rodrigo Valdez in the lower top ten. I can't think of many guys who could beat him at his best.

The best boxer-movers could outpoint Valdez... But I can't think of many guys who could trade with him. It's even hard imagining strong, super-chinned, hardened & conditioned Marvelous Marvin Hagler (my favourite fighter) being able to trade with Valdez. I believe Hagler would beat him, but he'd have to box on the backfoot as against Hamsho and Briscoe.

At his peak Valdez was a real terror. Had the great Carlos Monzon been around, he probably would have reigned dominant for four to five years. Valdez was most probably the hardest middleweight puncher of the seventies, and possibly the hardest middleweight puncher of all time. His power was phenomonal, and he gained a real reputation for it. But Valdez wasn't all crude & swinging. He had a busy jab, fast hands, a pretty good defense and excellent infighting skills. If a guy stood in front of him, Valdez would wail away with combinations. He also had a granite chin.

I would pick Valdez to make mincemeat of the big right hand that was Rocky Graziano. Tony Zale would have been outfought and outpunched. If Gene Fullmer came straight at Valdez, he's getting knocked out.

If you want me to be absolutely honest... I would pick Valdez to beat Stanley Ketchel. By knockout. I've seen Ketchel on film... He punches hard, but not with both hands, and he doesn't throw combinations. His defense was quite poor... And to have a poor defense and no combinations versus the better skilled, iron-chinned, super punching Valdez, it's a death wish. Ketchel may have a very solid chin, but if he's leaving his hands down then something has got to give. Valdez hit that hard.
Fitzimmons, Walker... These guys would succumb also.

Valdez is extremely underrated - not just as a puncher, but as a fighter in general. I suggest you guys try getting your hands on some film of him.

[dr_devious]

Would you pick Valdez to beat Jones, Hopkins, Toney, and LaMotta?
I havent seen him fight but to be second best in Monzon's era is no disgrace.
As a coincidence I saw some highlights of the Marvin Hagler v Bennie Briscoe fight last night. It was interesting to see how MMH's style changed from his younger years where he was quite a slick boxer to the later years e.g. against Hearns and Mugabi where he was more of a slugger. It was the Hagler-Hearns and Hagler-Mugabi fights that really got me into boxing in the mid-80s

[DoubleM]

Would you pick Valdez to beat Jones, Hopkins, Toney, and LaMotta?
I havent seen him fight but to be second best in Monzon's era is no disgrace.
As a coincidence I saw some highlights of the Marvin Hagler v Bennie Briscoe fight last night. It was interesting to see how MMH's style changed from his younger years where he was quite a slick boxer to the later years e.g. against Hearns and Mugabi where he was more of a slugger. It was the Hagler-Hearns and Hagler-Mugabi fights that really got me into boxing in the mid-80s

I'm not sure about LaMotta, but I would pick Jones and Hopkins to outmove and outbox Valdez. They would definitely have to have their wits about them though. Valdez was certainly one of the most dangerous fighters I've ever seen.

As for Hagler, yes, he used to like to box a lot more. He fought a lone line of tough fighters in tough fights. When thinking about a prime Marvin Hagler, don't think of '84-'87, but think of '80-'83. During that time Hagler could box, brawl, swarm, stalk, anything. He was usually a forward moving boxer-puncher with a precise jab and excellent fundamental skills. There is literally nothing you can fault on Hagler at his best, no major weakness. I've followed his career closely, and at his peak he did everything right, from walking up the steps to knocking the guy out. No major weaknesses.
I would pick Marvelous Marvin to outpoint Valdez, though he'd have to fight like he did against Scypion. In that fight he had a good balance of offense and defense, stuck to his game and looked impeccable style-wise.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

go to harry greb and click on him shadowboxing


watch the way he moves, dont watch anything else. his footwork is absolutley incredible

[DoubleM]

go to harry greb and click on him shadowboxing


watch the way he moves, dont watch anything else. his footwork is absolutley incredible

Sorry Q, but Greb doesn't look too good.

I won't dismiss him however, since a few clips of someone taking it easy while past their prime doesn't do anyone justice.

[Martin Sosa Cameron]

There aren't much of the greatest South American middles, like Eduardo Lausse, Rafael Merentino, Raúl Rodríguez or Antonio Fernández, or Europeans, Marcel Thil, Terry Downes and others who were very good

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

go to harry greb and click on him shadowboxing


watch the way he moves, dont watch anything else. his footwork is absolutley incredible

Sorry Q, but Greb doesn't look too good.

I won't dismiss him however, since a few clips of someone taking it easy while past their prime doesn't do anyone justice.

i was just talking about his footwork and the way he moved, it looked pretty good to me. i can only imagined how great he moved 7-8 years earlier

[Ambling Alp]

There aren't much of the greatest South American middles, like Eduardo Lausse, Rafael Merentino, Raúl Rodríguez or Antonio Fernández, or Europeans, Marcel Thil, Terry Downes and others who were very good

I did have Terry Downes in the top 50. Thil was one of the last guys that I cut.
As for the 4 South Amercian middleweights that you mentioned, I have to admit that I'm not familiar with them.
I looked up their career records after you mentioned them.
Antonio Fernandez only fought one guy that I was familiar with, and that was Holman Williams and Williams beat him twice. I guess I can't include him in my top 50 unless I see him fight.
Same thing with Rafael Merentino. The only fighter that fought that I am very familiar with is Kid Gavilian and he was knocked out by Gavilan.
There is nobody on Raul Rodriquez record that I was familiar with (Other than the win over Fernandez).

However what caught my attention was Eduardo Lausse. He has a win over Gene Fullmer, as well as over Tiger Jones, who was decent.
I would like to see a tape of him fighting. What style of fighter was he?

[Martin Sosa Cameron]

Ambling Alp,

my intention is to excite the interest in to know about the Argentinian and South American boxing history and his great fighters. The boys I mentioned are the best between the best in South America. All boxing fans knows Carlos Monzón, Rodrigo Valdez, Hugo Corro, Ramón Méndez (the first winner over the undefeated Tony Licata) and others; in the '70 and '80 they were any boys rated as #1 in the world, like the Argentinians Rufino Cabrera and Rubén Pardo or the Peruvian Marcelo Quiñones, for example; all this is recent history, but, who knows of the previous great pugilists? Argentina is so far of the world boxing centers and, before the '60, the information wasn't quick and complete. Only the exceptions of any fighters who fought in the United States or in Europe like Luis Firpo, Arturo Godoy, Estanislao Loayza, Victorio Campolo or César Brión and others put a little attention in our boxers. But it was a very rich history of our sport, and not widely known. The Philippine World Middleweight Champion Ceferino García lost twice (one by K.O.) to Kid Azteca, and Kid Azteca was knocked out by the Argentinian Atilio Caraune, who scored more than 20 consecutive K.O. victories. When you see the record of Raúl Rodríguez, how many bouts with no a lost! He was a very difficult stylist, nicknamed "Telaraña" (Spider Web). Very good was, too, the Peruvian champions K.O. Brisset and Antonio Frontado. Antonio Fernández, a Chilean born in Spain, fought in the United States and was between the top ten of the world, but when he wasn´t in his fullness. Lausse? Lausse is considered in Argentina the best middle of this country by many reviewers; too Merentino. Lausse beat Jimmy Beau, Humberto Loayza, Jesse Turner, Chico Varona, Gil Edwards, Kid Gavilán, Víctor Zalazar (please, see the record of Zalazar), Antonio Cuevas and British Champion Johnny Williams and Andrés Selpa (who scored more than 80 K.O.) And Merentino was very near of knocked out the World Champion Kid Gavilán in the second and third and nine round of his fight; many years after, Gavilán admited: "I fought with the best middleweights of Argentina in that time, and the most dangerous was Merentino; if I don't knocked out him, he would knocked out me". The K.O. % of Eduardo and Rafael, in all his career, is near of the 75% (!) I'm happy when you see their great records. Thanks you very much

[barry]

I don't really know Martin Sosa Cameron, but I do know that he has done a ton of wonderful research on South American fighters and a lot of the records that you see in the database now on South American fighters have come from records he has personally researched! Fighters like Lausse, Rafael Merentino, Jose Bruno, Jose Gatica, Andres Selpa, Jose Giorgetti, Rinaldo Ansaloni and many more are from Martin's records, so if you want to learn about fighters from that location listen to him because he certainly knows what he is talking about!

[Martin Sosa Cameron]

Decagon,

I never says that Lausse or Merentino were better than Monzón. I wrote the first work over Carlos Monzón in the United States, in Boxing Illustrated, a great magazine, when Monzón was unknown. I think he is the best Argentinian middleweight, and 2.Lausse and 3.Merentino, but there are many others who consider, with good arguments, too, that Eduardo Lausse was the best. Lausse wasn't World Champion because Ray Robinson avoided him; his style of great dynamism and his velocity in his fists, his resistance and courage, aggressive, her mighty left, was very complicated for Sugar Ray, and Merentino, who could be too a World Champion --he would knocked out Bobo Olson in less than three rounds, for example--, must to retired very young after two surgeries on his eyes, winning his last five bouts by K.O. Thanks for your question

[surf-bat]

Decagon,

I never says that Lausse or Merentino were better than Monzón. I wrote the first work over Carlos Monzón in the United States, in Boxing Illustrated, a great magazine, when Monzón was unknown. I think he is the best Argentinian middleweight, and 2.Lausse and 3.Merentino, but there are many others who consider, with good arguments, too, that Eduardo Lausse was the best. Lausse wasn't World Champion because Ray Robinson avoided him; his style of great dynamism and his velocity in his fists, his resistance and courage, aggressive, her mighty left, was very complicated for Sugar Ray, and Merentino, who could be too a World Champion --he would knocked out Bobo Olson in less than three rounds, for example--, must to retired very young after two surgeries on his eyes, winning his last five bouts by K.O. Thanks for your question

Don't forget Juan Roldan. Both Hagler and Hearns called him their most dificult opponent. He was a monster to fight. I only wish he'd come in the post-Monzon, pre-Hagler era. He would have cleaned up on Minter, Antuofermo, Corro and all those guys.

Frazier and Ali both cite Oscar Bonavena as their toughest foe. He battered them both in losing efforts. He was Argentina's greatest heavyweight. Firpo's accomplishments pale in comparison.

Nicolino Locche is one of the greatst defensive fighters in history, comparing favorably with Young Griffo, Willie Pep, Pernell Whitaker and Wilfred Benitez.

I love Argentina's boxing history.

[surf-bat]

Why is Harry Greb ranked higher than Stanley Ketchel? Or Bob Fitzsimmons? How can you compare guys from that era with Ray Robinson, Carlos Monzon and Marvin Hagler? Its almost impossible to compare, pure conjecture

One way is to look at his record. Greb beat more hall of fame fighters than probably any boxer in history. He beat hall of fame Middleweights and light-heavyweights. There is not a midleweight in history that has a more impressive record. I challenge anyone to debate me on this.

[DoubleM]

Why is Harry Greb ranked higher than Stanley Ketchel? Or Bob Fitzsimmons? How can you compare guys from that era with Ray Robinson, Carlos Monzon and Marvin Hagler? Its almost impossible to compare, pure conjecture

One way is to look at his record. Greb beat more hall of fame fighters than probably any boxer in history. He beat hall of fame Middleweights and light-heavyweights. There is not a midleweight in history that has a more impressive record. I challenge anyone to debate me on this.

There's probably not anyone, regardless of weight, who has a better record.

Though Greb fought more often above the middleweight limit than below it. For that reason, since he was technically more of a light heavyweight, I rate him one of the top light heavyweights, and probably the fourth or fifth best middleweight. He was unofficially the greatest super middleweight of all time.

[harrygreb]

[quote="kovit"]I disagreed about Harry Greb being the #1 greatest middleweight champion of all-time because I never him on film. Why do you think he's number one than Sugar Ray Robinson, Marvelous Marvin Hagler, Carlos Monzon, and Bernard Hopkins. Greb never won the middleweight five times like Robinson, he was a one time middleweight champion. Does Greb defended the most times like Bernard Hopkins absolutely not? I saw the top four greatest middleweight champions of all time on film, but not Harry Greb. You can't judge Greb as the number 1 greatest middleweight champion of all-time, because he died unexpectly in 1926 because he ever get into the rematch with Tiger Flowers who beat Greb to take the title away from him. Greb being the number 1 greatest middleweight champion of all time is a joke to me. They rather put Greb at the number five greatest middleweight champion of all time.[/quote]

well, put it this way, harry makes most peoples top 3 middleweights with not even one good eye. we judge harry from first hand accounts on record and from gene tunney's ripped up mug after their first contest.
i still cant believe that greb v walker (1) wasnt filmed as the bout attracted a record attendance for the time. perhaps it was lost or destroyed.
fullmer's too high
graziano's too high
great list though

[barry]

>>>still cant believe that greb v walker (1) wasnt filmed as the bout attracted a record attendance for the time. perhaps it was lost or destroyed.<<<

I think that is what happened. I seem to recall seeing advertisements for the showing of the bout later on in theaters, but may be thinking about someone else, though I am pretty sure that it was filmed. Maybe there's a copy in some old theater that has been shut down for years, just sitting, collecting more and more dust...maybe before we die someone will uncover an actual bout of Grebs.

[Expug]

>>>still cant believe that greb v walker (1) wasnt filmed as the bout attracted a record attendance for the time. perhaps it was lost or destroyed.<<<

I think that is what happened. I seem to recall seeing advertisements for the showing of the bout later on in theaters, but may be thinking about someone else, though I am pretty sure that it was filmed. Maybe there's a copy in some old theater that has been shut down for years, just sitting, collecting more and more dust...maybe before we die someone will uncover an actual bout of Grebs.

Barry , have you been to the Greb website http://WWW.HarryGreb.com ? Check out the film section. I think there are some clips of him training. I cant seem to figure out how to download them. (no surprise) lotta good stuff there.

[surf-bat]

Why is Harry Greb ranked higher than Stanley Ketchel? Or Bob Fitzsimmons? How can you compare guys from that era with Ray Robinson, Carlos Monzon and Marvin Hagler? Its almost impossible to compare, pure conjecture

One way is to look at his record. Greb beat more hall of fame fighters than probably any boxer in history. He beat hall of fame Middleweights and light-heavyweights. There is not a midleweight in history that has a more impressive record. I challenge anyone to debate me on this.

There's probably not anyone, regardless of weight, who has a better record.

Though Greb fought more often above the middleweight limit than below it. For that reason, since he was technically more of a light heavyweight, I rate him one of the top light heavyweights, and probably the fourth or fifth best middleweight. He was unofficially the greatest super middleweight of all time.

actually, Greb more often than not fought BELOW the middleweight limit, while his opponent was well above. He was nowhere near the 175 lb limit. He wasl almost always a middleweight and that is where he should be ranked.

[surf-bat]

>>>still cant believe that greb v walker (1) wasnt filmed as the bout attracted a record attendance for the time. perhaps it was lost or destroyed.<<<

I think that is what happened. I seem to recall seeing advertisements for the showing of the bout later on in theaters, but may be thinking about someone else, though I am pretty sure that it was filmed. Maybe there's a copy in some old theater that has been shut down for years, just sitting, collecting more and more dust...maybe before we die someone will uncover an actual bout of Grebs.

It was filmed. It's probably the most sought-after "lost" boxing film in history. Jim Jacobs had the name of the guy who shot it but could never find it. It's in some basement somewhere in the world deteriorating slowly. The thought can drive a boxing fan nuts.

One of his bouts with Tunney was filmed too.