Evander Holyfield's heavyweight career

[Controversial]

His heavyweight wins, good or great?

[Tuan_Jim]

Beat Riddick Bowe, beat up Mike Tyson twice, beat Lennox Lewis in the rematch (in my opinion and in the opinion of a significant number of media print). Beat up Ray Mercer, hammered Michael Moorer, beat Foreman and wiped out Douglas.

The finest collection of scalps in all of the 1990s, absolutely a great record, though Holyfield like all popular heavyweight champions has his detractors.

[dempseyfire]

IMO a great record; his wins over Holmes and Foreman don't get the credit they deserve; he defeated the best versions of their comeback selves (IMO Foreman actually looked much better vs Evander than when he won the title vs Moorer-faster and more active). Even though the Tyson victories have lost luster over time. the rest of his record is still excellent. Better than Lennox's.

[evrenb]

IMO a great record; his wins over Holmes and Foreman don't get the credit they deserve; he defeated the best versions of their comeback selves (IMO Foreman actually looked much better vs Evander than when he won the title vs Moorer-faster and more active). Even though the Tyson victories have lost luster over time. the rest of his record is still excellent. Better than Lennox's.

That's true - so many people rubbish Mike now because they judge him on his decline. Great performances by Evander over a 70% version of Tyson.

[Controversial]

He does have a great record but it would have been interesting to see him fight the version of Douglas that fought Tyson as Douglas wasn't up for the fight, overweight and didn't even try to get up. As for Foreman he only ever had a punchers chance, he was too slow and carefully manoeuvred into a title shot beating the normal string of journeymen and avoiding a true "live" opponent along the way. A good win but a foregone conclusion in reality. Pretty much the same for Holmes, still capable, durable. skilful and wily but not the fighter he was and in reality was never going to beat Holyfield.

[gregor]

IMO his wins are better than those of Tyson or Lewis.

Holmes was past prime, but still his only clear loss up to that point was Tyson. Similarly with Foreman - old and slow, but still had enough to recapture title afterwards. Only Holy and Douglas won with Tyson when he was still more or less in his prime ... and only Holy did it twice. Not many fighters have 4 victories over ATG (and this is only HW... you can argue for 6 with Quawi, though he was best at LHW)

Great fight with Dokes. Great trilogy with Bowe (though Holy was 1-2 here, so in terms of wins not much here). Good comeback against Moorer (II). Tough fight with Mercer (Mercer first time on canvas I think). Destruction of Douglas (not his fault that Douglas was out of shape). And only incompetent judges stopped him from recapturing WBA belt at 46.

[Broomhall]

I think Holyfields career is clouded by the implication of drugs use otherwise you could say he lays to the rest the myth about a smaller man being able to compete with todays giants.....but in the background you just have that cloud...Great career though, very exciting fighter to watch and you would certainly be happy to see him in the trenches with you.

[klompton]

Great record but I have no doubt that from the time he began as a heavyweight until the end of his career he was on PEDs and as such he should have an * by it. Sad because he, like Mosley, was one of my favorites but both were cheaters. Holy even blatantly cheated with all the headbutts, elbows, low blows, etc. Ive soured on him.

[Heartbreak_Kid79]

He has a good record, but one thing... the Lewis rematch was correctly awarded to Lewis.
Granted it was closer than their first fight.... bit it seems since 1999 there had been a swerve of opinion by Lewis detractors. Holyfield was slightly edged out.

Evander is the best connected HW I can think of... he had 7 title shots in his HW career (4 of which he won) but thats still astonishing. Even after a loss he landed a few title shots the very next fight. (I can understand this if there is a rematch clause... but after the Lewis loss, he was granted an immediate WBA shot with Ruiz, after losing to Inbragimov he is suddenly (and unfairly) plucked for a title shot at Valuev... with no warm up matches to work his way back up the ladder?

When Lewis lost the WBC title in 1994 he was frozen out of the title picture for 3 years.... and worked his way up the ladder. Evander was often placed in immediate title shots, or a title eliminator the very next fight!
I'm not saying here that Evander wasn't a great fighter... but he was often picked for the big shot fights, where many other contenders had to play the waiting game. I guess his name value and popularity made the PPVs more appealing for the TV stations.

Obviously post 2001 (last time he held a title) Evander has been regarded as a guy who hung on way too long.
Depends on whether this tarnishes his legacy or not?
People try to gloss over his later years fighting past his prime... yet Roy Jones legacy seems heavily tarnished for doing the same thing.

[klompton]

I disagree. I had Holyfield winning the second Lewis match. The first one was attrocious. Neither guy tried and it was obvious to me that they were setting up a lucrative rematch. That fight was pre-arranged to inconclusive. Both guys were roided up to their eyeballs too.

[Heartbreak_Kid79]

I disagree. I had Holyfield winning the second Lewis match. The first one was attrocious. Neither guy tried and it was obvious to me that they were setting up a lucrative rematch. That fight was pre-arranged to inconclusive. Both guys were roided up to their eyeballs too.

Not trying? This wasn't the 1920s where the mafia were pre-arranging the outcome of fights

[Roco]

He has a good record, but one thing... the Lewis rematch was correctly awarded to Lewis.
Granted it was closer than their first fight.... bit it seems since 1999 there had been a swerve of opinion by Lewis detractors. Holyfield was slightly edged out.

Evander is the best connected HW I can think of... he had 7 title shots in his HW career (4 of which he won) but thats still astonishing. Even after a loss he landed a few title shots the very next fight. (I can understand this if there is a rematch clause... but after the Lewis loss, he was granted an immediate WBA shot with Ruiz, after losing to Inbragimov he is suddenly (and unfairly) plucked for a title shot at Valuev... with no warm up matches to work his way back up the ladder?

When Lewis lost the WBC title in 1994 he was frozen out of the title picture for 3 years.... and worked his way up the ladder. Evander was often placed in immediate title shots, or a title eliminator the very next fight!
I'm not saying here that Evander wasn't a great fighter... but he was often picked for the big shot fights, where many other contenders had to play the waiting game. I guess his name value and popularity made the PPVs more appealing for the TV stations.

Obviously post 2001 (last time he held a title) Evander has been regarded as a guy who hung on way too long.
Depends on whether this tarnishes his legacy or not?
People try to gloss over his later years fighting past his prime... yet Roy Jones legacy seems heavily tarnished for doing the same thing.

Shouldn't that be incorrectly awarded to Lewis?

[Heartbreak_Kid79]

Shouldn't that be incorrectly awarded to Lewis?

What aspect?

Lucky getting title shots? Surely not... Lewis only lost twice.... one of which was a rematch, the other he was frozen out of the picture for 3 years.

Lets see...

Evander loses his first title to Bowe and has a rematch a year later: One warm up fight in between: I'm Ok with that.
Loses his 2nd title in his first defence to Moorer
Stemming off his 2nd Bowe defeat he gets Tyson, again only after one warm up match. With 2 losses in 4 fights how he gets the title shot. I'm thinking that was more on his name value than his current form.
Lewis should have got Tyson at this time but Tyson didn't want to fight him.

Loses his 3rd title to Lewis... and in his very next match... gets a title shot with Ruiz.
Loses his 4th title to Ruiz in a rematch, then a horrible draw... so he is 0-1-1 in his last 2 fights... then gets put into a IBF title eliminator his very next fight against Rahman.
So his 6 fight record is 2-2-2 when he gets his next title shot against Byrd?

Now an old Holyfield who hasn't beaten a top 10 contender for 5 years... gets a WBO shot at Ibragimov. No way does he deserve this?
Then he loses this match... and low and behold is handed a WBA title shot against Valuev his very next bout?
There will have been dozens of guys more deserving than Evander at this stage in his career... so why are they overlooked for Evander.
I understand he sells tickets... but what about deserving or on merit or rankings even?

I am not bringing Evanders ability into question... but when it came to title shots or title eliminators he was often in the right place at the right time due to connections... despite going on losing streaks and spotty win-loss records

[Ezzard]

He's my pick as the best HW of the era.

Agree on the PEDs but then Lennox has a completely different frame later on to the guy who beat Bruno. And I severely doubt Bowe wasn't using too.

But I do think Lewis won the rematch with Holy. Evander made it so close though at a time when he was supposed to be washed up that it always felt like he scored the moral victory...

[Tuan_Jim]

Evander loses his first title to Bowe and has a rematch a year later: One warm up fight in between: I'm Ok with that.

So you're okay with a rematch of the greatest heavyweight title fight in decades. Well that's something.

Stemming off his 2nd Bowe defeat he gets Tyson, again only after one warm up match. With 2 losses in 4 fights how he gets the title shot. I'm thinking that was more on his name value than his current form.

Tyson had won two belts and was making a lucrative voluntary first defence of his WBA title. Happens all the time in boxing, in all divisions, long before Holyfield, long after Holyfield. Holyfield/Tyson I was the biggest grossing bout in boxing history at that time, so you don't have a leg to stand on here.

Loses his 3rd title to Lewis... and in his very next match... gets a title shot with Ruiz.

Who should have fought John Ruiz in August 2000? Give me some deserving names.

Loses his 4th title to Ruiz in a rematch, then a horrible draw... so he is 0-1-1 in his last 2 fights... then gets put into a IBF title eliminator his very next fight against Rahman.
So his 6 fight record is 2-2-2 when he gets his next title shot against Byrd?

As you say, he had just beaten former undisputed heavyweight champion Hasim Rahman, easily. That doesn't merit him an IBF shot in a division Lennox Lewis had allowed to fragment through vacating titles?

Who should have fought Chris Byrd in December 2002? Give me some deserving names.

[palooka]

For his rights and wrongs Holyfield was an immensely competitive fighter, he would not freeze, would not bottle it and would give his all.

[Tuan_Jim]

That's why he was always in the big time mix, it's why he was box office. Because of his thrilling, gung-ho performances in the ring.

This retard Heartbreak Kid is painting Holyfield as some kind of Vaughn Bean/John Ruiz type, enjoying undeserved title shots.

Beat Foreman and Bowe, crush Tyson and poleaxe Moorer? Yeah, you'll be living off those results a long long time. "Evander Holyfield's available? Well let's just see what Henry Akinwande's doing first-he did just beat Peter McNeeley!"

[Tomasino]

That's why he was always in the big time mix, it's why he was box office. Because of his thrilling, gung-ho performances in the ring.

This retard Heartbreak Kid is painting Holyfield as some kind of Vaughn Bean/John Ruiz type, enjoying undeserved title shots.

Beat Foreman and Bowe, crush Tyson and poleaxe Moorer? Yeah, you'll be living off those results a long long time. "Evander Holyfield's available? Well let's just see what Henry Akinwande's doing first-he did just beat Peter McNeeley!"

[Heartbreak_Kid79]

Who should have fought John Ruiz in August 2000? Give me some deserving names.

Who should have fought Chris Byrd in December 2002? Give me some deserving names.

Wladimir Klitchsko, Vitali Klitchsko, Corrie Sanders, David Tua (had already demolished Ruiz in a round before) .... even Mike Tyson.

If Holyfield at least had a couple of warm up fights beforehand... fine.
But to keep getting title shots on losing streaks shows its more about the box office appeal than deserving it on merit.

How can you defend Evander getting 2 world title shots in his late 40s?

This retard Heartbreak Kid .

Troll!

is painting Holyfield as some kind of Vaughn Bean/John Ruiz type, enjoying undeserved title shots. .

Err nope. I am saying how he was handed title shots immediately without having to work his way back up the ladder first.
I haven't questioned Evanders ability... just his luck

[Tomasino]

It's hardly luck, it's business sense. It's not like he got his title shots from a raffle!

[Tuan_Jim]

Who should have fought John Ruiz in August 2000? Give me some deserving names.

Who should have fought Chris Byrd in December 2002? Give me some deserving names.

Wladimir Klitchsko, Vitali Klitchsko, Corrie Sanders, David Tua (had already demolished Ruiz in a round before) .... even Mike Tyson.

Your ignorance is not surprising at all.

In August 2000 Wladimir had literally just boxed Monte Barrett in London and was set up to fight a lucrative WBO fight in Germany against Chris Byrd. Vitali had lost his last fight, quitting against Chris Byrd (losing a controversial decision to Lennox Lewis rules you out, but getting stopped by Byrd is fine? Okay), Corrie Sanders had lost his last fight, KOd by Hasim Rahman, David Tua was signed to fight Lennox Lewis for the title, and as for Mike Tyson . . . . a title shot off the back of wins over Julius Francis and Lou Savarese? Are you serious?

As far as 2002 and Byrd goes, Holyfield's win over Rahman trumps Vitali's win over Larry Donald - Vitali who had meekly quit against Byrd last time out on HBO - Wladimir already held the WBO belt and was on his bum of the month routine. Holyfield's win over Rahman trumps Sanders win over Otis Tisdale, David Tua had lost widely to Byrd and Tyson had been squashed by Lewis.

So now those guys are out the way, who have you got? Give me some credible names.

Do you not see how ridiculous what you are saying is? Criticising Holyfield for not "working up the ladder" and then proposing names who not only hadn't worked up the ladder, but hadn't even been mixing in the elite level like Holyfield had and are often coming off knockout losses.

How can you defend Evander getting 2 world title shots in his late 40s?

This question simply baffles me. Are you this blind to boxing? With Lewis, Bowe and Tyson gone he was the last superstar standing, and was served up as a famous name for young champions. The list of challengers in that decade with even less credibility that Holyfield's corpse is very long.

[Syntax Error]

Great career, but slightly odd in a way.

Beat a path to Tyson's door in the late 80s/early 90s, but then Mike got spanked by Douglas & we all know what happened next.

Beat Douglas & yes, Douglas was bloated & probably still dining out (literally) on his victory over Tyson, but that's not Holyfield's fault & I can never envisage a time when Douglas would have beaten the 1990 version of Holyfield anyway.

After losing to Bowe in 1992, whom Holyfield was unlucky to share the ring with, for the hour that Bowe was in his prime, but still managed to make it competitive, his HW career see-sawed, but he was still the de-facto HW of the 90s.

He was probably last seen in 'real' form against Lewis in the 1999 rematch, which he lost, but was much more competitive than in the first fight, partly because Lewis seemed so unwilling to engage.

His career after 1999 shouldn't tarnish his legacy, even though he held versions of the title after.

[Heartbreak_Kid79]

In August 2000 Wladimir had literally just boxed Monte Barrett in London and was set up to fight a lucrative WBO fight in Germany against Chris Byrd. Vitali had lost his last fight, quitting against Chris Byrd (losing a controversial decision to Lennox Lewis rules you out, but getting stopped by Byrd is fine? Okay), Corrie Sanders had lost his last fight, KOd by Hasim Rahman, David Tua was signed to fight Lennox Lewis for the title, and as for Mike Tyson . . . . a title shot off the back of wins over Julius Francis and Lou Savarese? Are you serious?

The same Lou Savarese who was even older and washed up, that Evander beat prior to title shots at Ibragimov and Valuev??

Way to twist the question. This period was over a 3 year timeframe (early 2000 to Dec 2002). Who is to say Wladimir didn't deserve a crack at Byrd in 2002? having beaten him already.

Anyway regardless.... so its Ok for Evander to have immediate title shots and not Ok for any over heavyweight. OK then.
#Holyfield bias.. So Evander should remain the no.1 ranked contender regardless of his form. If he came back tomorrow would you be calling for a title shot against Wladimir?
When he lost to James Toney you think he deserves a title shot? (which surprise surprise was another title eliminator bout despite Evander having won just one of his prior 4 fights? (or 2 of his last 6)

Tyson was a high ranked contender for a long time before he got a shot at Lewis in 2002.
He was no doubt an even bigger draw than Holyfield for the money fights, but was made to wait.... where Evander being Evander gets a free pass. Even the 2000 version of Tyson would have splattered John Ruiz, something Evander was not capable of doing at that point.

This question simply baffles me. Are you this blind to boxing? With Lewis, Bowe and Tyson gone he was the last superstar standing, and was served up as a famous name for young champions. The list of challengers in that decade with even less credibility that Holyfield's corpse is very long.

Of course it would baffle a simple minded person.
You think a washed up Evander approaching 50 years of age who isn't even ranked in the top 20 HWs at the time.... deserves his title shots? I rest my case.

I am questioning Evanders numerous title shots... (post Lewis match).
You are treating it like am calling him a bum... which I never did.

[Tuan_Jim]

Your questions have been answered, again an again, in detail, and you choose to keep gormlessly repeating the same points that demonstrably do not stand up to scrutiny. Each comment you make further illustrates your ignorance to the period you are discussing. Wlad held the WBO belt so didn't figure in the IBF or any other rankings. This is basic boxing. Tyson more deserving? He wasn't pursuing tough fights in that time frame. Remember his post fight interviews 1999-2001? 'Two more fights and I'm ready for the title.' Two more fights, two more fights, it was always two more fights.

You have failed to provide a plausible, available challenger for Ruiz in August 00 or Byrd in December 2002.

Everyone has already dismissed the Ibragimov and Valuev fights for the cynical crap they were, and yet increasingly your whole argument hangs off two nothing contests.

Go and learn how to think analytically you gormless cretin.

[Heartbreak_Kid79]

You have failed to give a credible answer as to why a Evander deserved a title shot in his mid/late 40s. Where was it? Oh he sells tickets? Not that he was actually a legit top ranked contender at the time?

Even in the early 2000s... why not give it to the #1 contender?, any mandatory is deserving of a title shot. Even it its their one and only shot at the big time.
Evander never had to work his way back up the rankings, he simply got given another opportunity because of who he is and his popularity

Tyson was always '2 more fights for Lewis'. Come on was he really scared of Ruiz?

Why not give Evander a big wet kiss on the lips? Hes obviously your gay crush