Bermane Stiverne v Deontay Wilder 17th Jan Vegas

[Tuan_Jim]

Ali danced rings round the 6'5'' Ernie Terrell.

Why are modern boxing fans such size queens? You almost have to be impossibly ignorant of boxing history to think everything comes down to size.

[lillywhite14]

Size goes against you in some cases. If it ever takes place, watch what happens with Wlad v Fury.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Ali danced rings round the 6'5'' Ernie Terrell.

Why are modern boxing fans such size queens? You almost have to be impossibly ignorant of boxing history to think everything comes down to size.

Ernie Terrell wasn't what you call an all time great - he was good, but not great - and he was still around the mark of 15 and a half stone.

Why are boxing fans such size queens? Because the sport is based on size - that is why you have weight divisions.

Vladimir - I am no fan, believe me, but he is 6ft 7ins, 240 lbs, fast and with 8% body fat - and he utilises that very very well, you would be a fool to even suggest that it wouldn't have caused problems to any heavyweight of yesteryear.

People laugh now at statements Nat Fleischer made about Ali being beaten by Jim Jeffries and Jack Dempsey - well, I am afraid it is the same for prime Ali, Foreman, Liston, Fraizer against Klitsckho - I don't like saying it but you have to think with your head, not out of your arse.

[Tuan_Jim]

Sanders walked right through him. He employed this fascinating tactic that no one else seems to be able to master. When Wladimir leaped backwards, in a straight line, to get out of range, Sanders continued to throw while walking forward. This resulted in Wladimir being 6ft 6ins, 240 lbs, fast, 8% body fat and a glass chin.

Brewster too went right at him, head down (unlike Pulev), dragging Wladimir into a firefight. This resulted in Wladimir being 6ft 6ins, 240 lbs, fast, 8% body fat brimming with lactic acid, making him feel like his arms weighed 240lbs each, thus bringing his glass chin into play.

You've got to be an idiot to conflate limited inadequates like Povetkin, Pianeta, Pulev, Wach, Peter et al with gifted all-time great heavyweights in dynamite physical condition.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Sanders walked right through him. He employed this fascinating tactic that no one else seems to be able to master. When Wladimir leaped backwards, in a straight line, to get out of range, Sanders continued to throw while walking forward. This resulted in Wladimir being 6ft 6ins, 240 lbs, fast, 8% body fat and a glass chin.

Brewster too went right at him, head down (unlike Pulev), dragging Wladimir into a firefight. This resulted in Wladimir being 6ft 6ins, 240 lbs, fast, 8% body fat brimming with lactic acid, making him feel like his arms weighed 240lbs each, thus bringing his glass chin into play.

You've got to be an idiot to conflate limited inadequates like Povetkin, Pianeta, Pulev, Wach, Peter et al with gifted all-time great heavyweights in dynamite physical condition.

How long ago was Sanders and Brewster - hmmm, oh yeah - how many fights has he had since then?

He has massively improved since then, David Haye, a good fighter, could not negotiate the height and reach of Klitsckho because he uses it so well.

You are making out Klitsckho is a bum, if I am right - he has an olympic gold medal at super heavyweight* - so he has skill.

* Yes, so does Audley Harrison, he has skill too, he is lacking in other important areas to be a successful puguilist.

[Tuan_Jim]

Haye is by far the most gifted boxer Klitschko has faced in his long reign, but Haye was one-and-done all night. He was pedestrian and a monumental disappointment. Sanders and Brewster went for it. Haye didn't. Sam Peter, a man with no talent, went after him and, because he was landing on that glass chin, had him down three times. in fact if Peter could have at very least been, you know, two or three stone lighter and been an athlete, there might well have been another KO loss on Wlad's record.

Klitschko certainly is no bum, but boxing history is full of men who look awesome when on top, and collapse when hit.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Haye is by far the most gifted boxer Klitschko has faced in his long reign, but Haye was one-and-done all night. He was pedestrian and a monumental disappointment. Sanders and Brewster went for it. Haye didn't. Sam Peter, a man with no talent, went after him and, because he was landing on that glass chin, had him down three times. in fact if Peter could have at very least been, you know, two or three stone lighter and been an athlete, there might well have been another KO loss on Wlad's record.

Klitschko certainly is no bum, but boxing history is full of men who look awesome when on top, and collapse when hit.

How long ago were all these fights?

Ali? Frazier? Patterson? None of them fought hall of famers in title defences, if you reign is long enough, there will be duds littering the old resume - look up Joe Louis - he got put down by Tony Galento, twice - is Louis crap now because a fat bloke who trained on hot dogs and beer put him on his arse.

Lennox Lewis got cleaned out cold by two very mediocre heavyweight titlists - is he crap on that back of that? According to your logic he is.

Ali went 15 rounds with a near novice in Alfredo Evangelista, we can all look at less than impressive performances in a long career and go 'he's crap' the facts are, the heavyweight division isn't full of talent and never has been but the facts are - it would be very hard for a 6 ft odd and 215 pound heavyweight to deal with Klitsckho.

How long ago was Brewster and Sanders?

[Tuan_Jim]

If Wladimir beat someone who could fight him like Sanders and Brewster, those performances would lose their relevance.

As it is, no one on his record - no one - has been competent other than David Haye, who couldn't risk a KO loss because it might effect the celebrity side career he was already eyeing. Actually I would concede Ibragimov was very good, but like Haye didn't lay it all on the line like the less talented Brewster did.

[Sklar]

Corrie (RIP) was pretty much the same size as Wlad. Wlad's height tends to get exaggerated (Carlos! ) and people forget just how tall Corrie was.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

If Wladimir beat someone who could fight him like Sanders and Brewster, those performances would lose their relevance.

As it is, no one on his record - no one - has been competent other than David Haye, who couldn't risk a KO loss because it might effect the celebrity side career he was already eyeing. Actually I would concede Ibragimov was very good, but like Haye didn't lay it all on the line like the less talented Brewster did.

How long ago was Sanders and Brewster?

Just answer the question, its not hard.

There is a reason behind this by the way, he has improved since then and now knows how to use his height and reach properly. No-one can get near him.

Lennox Lewis got KO'd as in cleaned out cold - by both Oliver McCall and Hasim Ramhan - is he crap as well?

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Corrie (RIP) was pretty much the same size as Wlad. Wlad's height tends to get exaggerated (Carlos! ) and people forget just how tall Corrie was.

He was a good fighter Jim, no shame to losing to Corrie Sanders, he was as good as Hasim Rahman who KO'd Lennox Lewis.

[Sklar]

In a way it's a shame he wasn't more dedicated and in a way it isn't. He was a chilled out scratch golfer, top-level boxer, very good rugby player, etc... not bad.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

In a way it's a shame he wasn't more dedicated and in a way it isn't. He was a chilled out scratch golfer, top-level boxer, very good rugby player, etc... not bad.

He did a lot with his life - as Keats might have said about him 'his name will never be written on water'

[Tuan_Jim]

Corrie (RIP) was pretty much the same size as Wlad. Wlad's height tends to get exaggerated (Carlos! ) and people forget just how tall Corrie was.

Corrie was nearly 40 years old, seni retired and looked flabby even at 225. He didn't look that cut a decade earlier at 215 against Duplooy! He really makes a mess of the modern 'necessary bulk' argument. God, how he walked right through Klitschko. 'Leaping backwards ay, Dr Steel Chin? Very well, I'll come with you, swinging, and see what happ-oh he's unconscious.'

[Tuan_Jim]

How long ago was Sanders and Brewster?

Just answer the question, its not hard.

There is a reason behind this by the way, he has improved since then and now knows how to use his height and reach properly. No-one can get near him.

Lennox Lewis got KO'd as in cleaned out cold - by both Oliver McCall and Hasim Ramhan - is he crap as well?

No one can get near him? Don't you mean Marius Wach and Francesco Pianeta and Tony Thompson can't get near him? Povetkin got near him repeatedly, and thus Wladimir had to initiate a thousand holds to save his chin (without warning or disqualification - Henry Akinwande was sat somewhere fuming)

Your Lewis argument is as unsound as your Ali/Evangelista one. Lewis has so many A-class wins they eclipse his embarrassing losses. He went straight back in with Rahman and decapitated him. Wladimir never wanted to go near Corrie Sanders again, and needed big brother to come beat up the naughty bully - the same way he did Ross Puritty.

When Wladimir was given the option to fight Byrd (who he had already beaten easily) for the IBF belt, or Brewster (who had humiliated him) for the WBO belt, who did he select? Byrd of course! And he only was willing to rematch Brewster once he was legally dead and grave pungent. That's Dr Steel Chin for you.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

No one can get near him? Don't you mean Marius Wach and Francesco Pianeta and Tony Thompson can't get near him? Povetkin got near him repeatedly, and thus Wladimir had to initiate a thousand holds to save his chin (without warning or disqualification - Henry Akinwande was sat somewhere fuming)

None of them beat him.

Your Lewis argument is as unsound as your Ali/Evangelista one. Lewis has so many A-class wins they eclipse his embarrassing losses. He went straight back in with Rahman and decapitated him. Wladimir never wanted to go near Corrie Sanders again, and needed big brother to come beat up the naughty bully - the same way he did Ross Puritty.

Tyson and Holyfield were past their peak - so apart from those two, who were these fantastic fighters that Lewis fought?

When Wladimir was given the option to fight Byrd (who he had already beaten easily) for the IBF belt, or Brewster (who had humiliated him) for the WBO belt, who did he select? Byrd of course! And he only was willing to rematch Brewster once he was legally dead and grave pungent. That's Dr Steel Chin for you.

Answer these questions...

How long ago were these fights? (Brewster and Sanders)

How many fights has he had since those defeats?

How many olympians, olympic medalists and former pro world heavyweight belt holders has he beaten since then? (folk might be surprised)

[Tuan_Jim]

Always fall back on numbers and stats when you're onto a loser.

[Sklar]

Corrie (RIP) was pretty much the same size as Wlad. Wlad's height tends to get exaggerated (Carlos! ) and people forget just how tall Corrie was.

Corrie was nearly 40 years old, seni retired and looked flabby even at 225. He didn't look that cut a decade earlier at 215 against Duplooy! He really makes a mess of the modern 'necessary bulk' argument. God, how he walked right through Klitschko. 'Leaping backwards ay, Dr Steel Chin? Very well, I'll come with you, swinging, and see what happ-oh he's unconscious.'

I agree that bulk isn't all it's cracked up to be but when you know hot to use them, significant height and reach advantages are generally worth their weight in gold.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Always fall back on numbers and stats when you're onto a loser.

Facts and stats count do they not?

[Bard of Boxrec]

No one can get near him? Don't you mean Marius Wach and Francesco Pianeta and Tony Thompson can't get near him? Povetkin got near him repeatedly, and thus Wladimir had to initiate a thousand holds to save his chin (without warning or disqualification - Henry Akinwande was sat somewhere fuming)

Your Lewis argument is as unsound as your Ali/Evangelista one. Lewis has so many A-class wins they eclipse his embarrassing losses. He went straight back in with Rahman and decapitated him. Wladimir never wanted to go near Corrie Sanders again, and needed big brother to come beat up the naughty bully - the same way he did Ross Puritty.

When Wladimir was given the option to fight Byrd (who he had already beaten easily) for the IBF belt, or Brewster (who had humiliated him) for the WBO belt, who did he select? Byrd of course! And he only was willing to rematch Brewster once he was legally dead and grave pungent. That's Dr Steel Chin for you.

Although, Marius 'Mr Molasses' Wach did manage to hit Wlad with a big right hand that troubled him.

Additionally, I often wonder how many stoppages Wlad would have needed to endure before people stopped thinking he is a great. 5? 6? But...But...All Hail the New Improved Wlad!?

I remember the first Peter fight. Could very conceivably have been a stoppage for the limited slugger given the trouble Wlad was in. That would've been 4. The Povetkin fight, as you say, relied on Wlad being permitted to hold to the extent that, had you taken away that privilege, he surely would not have been able to keep the swarming Russian away. Let's call that 5. Suddenly his career looks a little different, and that's being kind and forgetting about the other knockdowns to donks like Davaryll Williamson and Steve Pannell.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

No one can get near him? Don't you mean Marius Wach and Francesco Pianeta and Tony Thompson can't get near him? Povetkin got near him repeatedly, and thus Wladimir had to initiate a thousand holds to save his chin (without warning or disqualification - Henry Akinwande was sat somewhere fuming)

Your Lewis argument is as unsound as your Ali/Evangelista one. Lewis has so many A-class wins they eclipse his embarrassing losses. He went straight back in with Rahman and decapitated him. Wladimir never wanted to go near Corrie Sanders again, and needed big brother to come beat up the naughty bully - the same way he did Ross Puritty.

When Wladimir was given the option to fight Byrd (who he had already beaten easily) for the IBF belt, or Brewster (who had humiliated him) for the WBO belt, who did he select? Byrd of course! And he only was willing to rematch Brewster once he was legally dead and grave pungent. That's Dr Steel Chin for you.

Although, Marius 'Mr Molasses' Wach did manage to hit Wlad with a big right hand that troubled him.

Additionally, I often wonder how many stoppages Wlad would have needed to endure before people stopped thinking he is a great. 5? 6? But...But...All Hail the New Improved Wlad!?

I remember the first Peter fight. Could very conceivably have been a stoppage for the limited slugger given the trouble Wlad was in. That would've been 4. The Povetkin fight, as you say, relied on Wlad being permitted to hold to the extent that, had you taken away that privilege, he surely would not have been able to keep the swarming Russian away. Let's call that 5. Suddenly his career looks a little different, and that's being kind and forgetting about the other knockdowns to donks like Davaryll Williamson and Steve Pannell.

I don't know why you bother typing on this site, you know fornicate all about boxing - really.

The argument is not about him being an all time anything - however, heavyweights in particular get bigger and stronger and the fighters of yesteryear would have had a hard time in beating the more modern fighters - that is all we are saying - or all I am saying.

Gene Tunney would not have given Ali much of a problem.

Jess Willard would have been cut down by Joe Louis.

Rocky Marciano would have been butchered by George Foreman

A middleweight is still (more or less) the same size now as they were in 1956 - it is a bit easier to say who would have beaten whom though advantage goes to modern days fighters via improved diet, training techniques etc though some people argue the old timers would have had the edge in mental toughness and stamina - it evens out a bit more.

You are dreaming if you think 5ft 10ins, 185lbs, Marciano or 5ft 11ins 205lbs Frazier would have been competitive against Klitsckho.

Try and not mistake a fighters legacy and what he did at the time (and against whom) with how they would do against fighters in different eras.

I would never argue that Klitsckhos legacy is superior to Ali's or Foreman's.

[Bard of Boxrec]

Oh, you took my post personally again. Not sure why that keeps happening, I wasn't even referring to you in particular.

In case you didn't notice, the argument isn't even supposed to be about Wlad at all...look at the thread title. So I don't know why I'm so at fault for it going off piste.

By the way, Marciano maybe couldn't have beaten Wlad. But Frazier would have mullered him.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

In case you didn't notice, the argument isn't even supposed to be about Wlad at all...look at the thread title. So I don't know why I'm so at fault for it going off piste.

I know, who brought Klitsckho up? Oh, it was me - sorry!

By the way, Marciano maybe couldn't have beaten Wlad. But Frazier would have mullered him.

I am a big fan of smokin' Joe but he wouldn't have got near him, sorry man, its the troof.

[Tuan_Jim]

Frazier is a different dimension of ability to Wack and Povetkin. A short fast puncher is a nightmare for tall fighters, as so many discovered versus Tyson. Frazier hits bigger than Brewster or Sanders, and his fitness surpasses anyone out today. This is a man who in his book wrote that he doesn't believe in the concept of a 'tired' fighter.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Frazier is a different dimension of ability to Wack and Povetkin. A short fast puncher is a nightmare for tall fighters, as so many discovered versus Tyson. Frazier hits bigger than Brewster or Sanders, and his fitness surpasses anyone out today. This is a man who in his book wrote that he doesn't believe in the concept of a 'tired' fighter.

Frazier couldn't get inside Foreman's jab, so I don't know how he is going to get through Klitsckho's reach.