cold187 wrote:povetkin beat chambers before Vladimir did
he also beat up Chris byrd
he beat chagaev, ko'd takam and charr.
chambers, wawrxk were undefeated
takam and charr and boswell were virtually undefeated
and soon he will defeat Mike Perez (and shut up ellie seckbach)
Chris Byrd was totally shot and was KO'ed by light-heavyweight jorneyman in his next fight. Chambers busted his face and looked better in the first half of fight outlanding Povetkin by a big margin in the first 8 rounds (174-136 according to CompuBox), Povetkin clearly won the last 4 rounds and deserved the win though. Good win. The same can be said about his wins over Chagaev and Takam. Povetkin beat 3 top-10 fighters in the tough fights, which of course is great achievement (I don't count his "win" over Huck as a win).
But please, don't bring here Charr and Wawrzyk. They aren't even top-30 fighters. Have you seen Wawrzyk fight agaist Bakhtov, where he was knocked down really hard and almost KO'ed in the first round and got a gift decision in the end? Have you seen Charr's fight against Bidenko? That's their real level.
don't matter,
charr is being thrown around as a decent opponent for AJ on these boards.
reality is charr, wawrzk are wank, but nobody else stepping up to KO'ing them out. instead their facing travis walkers and sprotts and airich
cold187 wrote:povetkin beat chambers before Vladimir did
he also beat up Chris byrd
he beat chagaev, ko'd takam and charr.
chambers, wawrxk were undefeated
takam and charr and boswell were virtually undefeated
and soon he will defeat Mike Perez (and shut up ellie seckbach)
Chris Byrd was totally shot and was KO'ed by light-heavyweight jorneyman in his next fight. Chambers busted his face and looked better in the first half of fight outlanding Povetkin by a big margin in the first 8 rounds (174-136 according to CompuBox), Povetkin clearly won the last 4 rounds and deserved the win though. Good win. The same can be said about his wins over Chagaev and Takam. Povetkin beat 3 top-10 fighters in the tough fights, which of course is great achievement (I don't count his "win" over Huck as a win).
But please, don't bring here Charr and Wawrzyk. They aren't even top-30 fighters. Have you seen Wawrzyk fight agaist Bakhtov, where he was knocked down really hard and almost KO'ed in the first round and got a gift decision in the end? Have you seen Charr's fight against Bidenko? That's their real level.
don't matter,
charr is being thrown around as a decent opponent for AJ on these boards.
reality is charr, wawrzk are wank, but nobody else stepping up to KO'ing them out. instead their facing travis walkers and sprotts and airich
I don't think Charr is a good test for AJ, I think he will be KO'ed in 2-3 rounds. As for Wawrzyk, team Fury wanted Wawrzyk to face Hughie in September 2013 when Hughie had only 7 or 8 pro fights. Wawrzyk declined the offer.
povetkin cant get rid of a 210 pounds 6'2 guy and almost losses and even was closed to get knocked down by huck, yet people think he would beat a 6'7, 220, athletic dude, who can take a punch from a quality puncher like stiverne.
no way, povetkin would totaly get crushed. stop that nonsense "he beat charr and takam", who the fu/´%$§k is charr and takam, 2 nobodys. one chubby dude who doesnt train and one body builder without speed. wilder would take them both out in 1 night.
please guys be reasonable. if you wanna know who wins against win, dont dickride on records, but look who has an advantage in the departmants power/speed/athletiscm/technic/chin and than decide. but not on these stupid records.
Leonid wrote:
Povetkin didn't look good against Huck, but he improved physically since then, and mark my words, Wilder is tailor made for him - great chin (only dropped by Wlad in pros or ams) will prevent him from being koed, just like Stiverne managed to survive. But Povetkin, unlike that plodding counterpuncher, is aggressive combination puncher, who will be on his A-game hunting Wilder down and eventually getting to that average at best chin. Wlad just clinched his way out of that and Wilder didn't master that trick yet.
I disagree completely. Povetkin always looked bad (and sometimes awful) against tall guys. In the amateurs he clearly lost to very limited Ukrainian fighter Mazikin in the world championship in Belfast (2001), who has "amazing" 14-11-2 (4 KO) pro record now. Also Povetkin went life and death against decent but limited Cuban Pedro Carrion, and was easily beaten by totally shot Alexei Lezin in 2003, both of whom are tall fighter. As for his chin, he was knocked down against Islam Timurziev and took a standing 8-count against feather-fisted Mazikin.
In the pros he looked awful against Wlad, and don't tell me it was only because of the clinches. Look, Pulev hit Wlad to the body and to the back of the head when he wanted to hold and small Eddie Chambers lifted him up few times when Wlad tried to hold him. Povetkin did nothing at all, NOTHING to make Wlad feel uncomfortable in the clinches. Also he didn't look good at all against tall jorneyman Nicolai Firtha, who was KO'ed by Wilder in 4 and TKO'ed in 5 by Fury.
I haven't seen/heard about Timurziev fight, good catch there. I'm pretty sure there were talks before Wlad fight about Povetkin never being dropped in pros or ams, but that appears to be not quite correct. Still it appears Povetkin wasn't really hurt and won that fight. He also had quite extensive carrier, so I still think Povetkin has good enough chin to be able to survive Wilder's offense. On the other note I didn't say Povetkin wouldn't have troubles outboxing tall man with bigger reach, I was expecting from physically improved Povetkin to deliver a ko to Wilder's "average at best chin". And I didn't say Povetkin couldn't try to avoid all the clinching in Wlad fight or handle it differently, he could've and should've change his game during the match. But this won't be an issue against Wilder, who doesn't use the clinch so far.
PS. I remember hearing Povetkin damaged his hand vs Firtha and won the fight with one hand. And Wilder was rocked by Firtha's jab, lol
Last edited by Leonid on 21 Jan 2015, 16:35, edited 1 time in total.
how can 24 voters have it wrong? i thought here were experts on the board.
powerless povetkin. fat out of shape 0,0 footwork fury.
1. wilder
2. jushua
thats is my list of best heavyweights. the rest does not matter, all chumps. and stop with wlad, he is no boxer, a wrestler who should be dqd in every fight.
Chepppaaa wrote:people out here ride so much on records.
povetkin cant get rid of a 210 pounds 6'2 guy and almost losses and even was closed to get knocked down by huck, yet people think he would beat a 6'7, 220, athletic dude, who can take a punch from a quality puncher like stiverne.
no way, povetkin would totaly get crushed. stop that nonsense "he beat charr and takam", who the fu/´%$§k is charr and takam, 2 nobodys. one chubby dude who doesnt train and one body builder without speed. wilder would take them both out in 1 night.
please guys be reasonable. if you wanna know who wins against win, dont dickride on records, but look who has an advantage in the departmants power/speed/athletiscm/technic/chin and than decide. but not on these stupid records.
I do agree that people often misuse records, yet their reflection in boxrec rating gives us solid tool for prediction of a winner. I heard of smthn like 80% accuracy, if i'm not mistaken (statistics for fighters with higher rating based solely on record beating guys with lower rating). Another issue here is I don't think that we should simply rate components (like advantages you listed) and then lean towards a fighter with better average score, but try to predict how these qualities would interact in a real fight (paraphrasing "styles make fights" here).
That's what I was trying to do here, betting on solid combination punching towards not so great chin (haven't really seen him take a quality punch), rather than strong puncher trying to crack a great chin.
Chepppaaa wrote:people out here ride so much on records.
povetkin cant get rid of a 210 pounds 6'2 guy and almost losses and even was closed to get knocked down by huck, yet people think he would beat a 6'7, 220, athletic dude, who can take a punch from a quality puncher like stiverne.
no way, povetkin would totaly get crushed. stop that nonsense "he beat charr and takam", who the fu/´%$§k is charr and takam, 2 nobodys. one chubby dude who doesnt train and one body builder without speed. wilder would take them both out in 1 night.
please guys be reasonable. if you wanna know who wins against win, dont dickride on records, but look who has an advantage in the departmants power/speed/athletiscm/technic/chin and than decide. but not on these stupid records.
I do agree that people often misuse records, yet their reflection in boxrec rating gives us solid tool for prediction of a winner. I heard of smthn like 80% accuracy, if i'm not mistaken (statistics for fighters with higher rating based solely on record beating guys with lower rating). Another issue here is I don't think that we should simply rate components (like advantages you listed) and then lean towards a fighter with better average score, but try to predict how these qualities would interact in a real fight (paraphrasing "styles make fights" here).
That's what I was trying to do here, betting on solid combination punching towards not so great chin (haven't really seen him take a quality punch), rather than strong puncher trying to crack a great chin.
styles make fights....okay
povetkin has trouble getting to the taller wilder, same like in the wlad fight. wilders jab is fast and powerful and comes out quick, a good jab wilder has. povetkin eats them, but povetkin can take it. he puts on some flurrys of punches to wilder, but simply doesnt have the power to impress deonthay. by round 8 poevtkin has been getting tagged enough by 1 twos and would go down in the next few rounds. just because you did not see wilder taking a strong punch, does not mean wilder has no good chin. also to me he proved he got a solid chin, because sometimes stiverne caught him with a good one and stiverne has power, arguably even more than povetkin.
Chepppaaa wrote:people out here ride so much on records.
povetkin cant get rid of a 210 pounds 6'2 guy and almost losses and even was closed to get knocked down by huck, yet people think he would beat a 6'7, 220, athletic dude, who can take a punch from a quality puncher like stiverne.
no way, povetkin would totaly get crushed. stop that nonsense "he beat charr and takam", who the fu/´%$§k is charr and takam, 2 nobodys. one chubby dude who doesnt train and one body builder without speed. wilder would take them both out in 1 night.
please guys be reasonable. if you wanna know who wins against win, dont dickride on records, but look who has an advantage in the departmants power/speed/athletiscm/technic/chin and than decide. but not on these stupid records.
I do agree that people often misuse records, yet their reflection in boxrec rating gives us solid tool for prediction of a winner. I heard of smthn like 80% accuracy, if i'm not mistaken (statistics for fighters with higher rating based solely on record beating guys with lower rating). Another issue here is I don't think that we should simply rate components (like advantages you listed) and then lean towards a fighter with better average score, but try to predict how these qualities would interact in a real fight (paraphrasing "styles make fights" here).
That's what I was trying to do here, betting on solid combination punching towards not so great chin (haven't really seen him take a quality punch), rather than strong puncher trying to crack a great chin.
styles make fights....okay
povetkin has trouble getting to the taller wilder, same like in the wlad fight. wilders jab is fast and powerful and comes out quick, a good jab wilder has. povetkin eats them, but povetkin can take it. he puts on some flurrys of punches to wilder, but simply doesnt have the power to impress deonthay. by round 8 poevtkin has been getting tagged enough by 1 twos and would go down in the next few rounds. just because you did not see wilder taking a strong punch, does not mean wilder has no good chin. also to me he proved he got a solid chin, because sometimes stiverne caught him with a good one and stiverne has power, arguably even more than povetkin.
That might happen, I guess. Might. Though I feel u overrate Deo's chin and underrate Povetkin's power.
Did that amateur Romanov had great power? Probably not.
Did Wilder improve his chin? Can't see it in his neck and his build. Didn't see those solid punches taken by Wilder.
Have any similarly built punchers in history proved to be chinny? Plenty.
povetkin has trouble getting to the taller wilder, same like in the wlad fight. wilders jab is fast and powerful and comes out quick, a good jab wilder has. povetkin eats them, but povetkin can take it. he puts on some flurrys of punches to wilder, but simply doesnt have the power to impress deonthay. by round 8 poevtkin has been getting tagged enough by 1 twos and would go down in the next few rounds. just because you did not see wilder taking a strong punch, does not mean wilder has no good chin. also to me he proved he got a solid chin, because sometimes stiverne caught him with a good one and stiverne has power, arguably even more than povetkin.[/quote]
That might happen, I guess. Might. Though I feel u overrate Deo's chin and underrate Povetkin's power.
Did that amateur Romanov had great power? Probably not.
Did Wilder improve his chin? Can't see it in his neck and his build. Didn't see those solid punches taken by Wilder.
Have any similarly built punchers in history proved to be chinny? Plenty.[/quote]
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poetkin and stiverne have similar power. wilder went 12 with stiverne and took some punches and after the fight looked like before the fight, untouched. because he took stivernes punches well and since both have similar power, povetkin would not do much better.
Wilder took very, very few clean punches from Stiverne, so lets not make it seem as if his chin is now proven to be good. Resume wise, Povetkin is a clear number two, hence why he has the most votes. I gotta say, I didn't see Povetkin as coming from behind against Takam either. I had him a clear leader up until the stoppage.
Anyone dismissing Povetkin or Pulev because of their failure to put a dent in Wladimir, really need to see how inept Fury or Wilder would look against him before proclaiming them the heir apparent to the undisputed heavyweight crown.
Of course the best way to prove who is second best in the division would be to get all these guys in the ring together.
davie wrote:Anyone dismissing Povetkin or Pulev because of their failure to put a dent in Wladimir, really need to see how inept Fury or Wilder would look against him before proclaiming them the heir apparent to the undisputed heavyweight crown.
Of course the best way to prove who is second best in the division would be to get all these guys in the ring together.
davie wrote:Anyone dismissing Povetkin or Pulev because of their failure to put a dent in Wladimir, really need to see how inept Fury or Wilder would look against him before proclaiming them the heir apparent to the undisputed heavyweight crown.
Of course the best way to prove who is second best in the division would be to get all these guys in the ring together.
how does a smaller man 6'2 beat a taller man 6'7?
Oh, are you being serious with this?
Can you honestly not imagine how a 6'2" fighter might defeat a 6'7" one?
davie wrote:Anyone dismissing Povetkin or Pulev because of their failure to put a dent in Wladimir, really need to see how inept Fury or Wilder would look against him before proclaiming them the heir apparent to the undisputed heavyweight crown.
Of course the best way to prove who is second best in the division would be to get all these guys in the ring together.
how does a smaller man 6'2 beat a taller man 6'7?
Oh, are you being serious with this?
Can you honestly not imagine how a 6'2" fighter might defeat a 6'7" one?
Really, no idea at all?
i am totaly serious, i am you, anybody on here, how does a smaller man 6'2 beat a taller man 6'7?
sure i can understand a smaller guy beating a taller guy, but i wanna understand your mindset on how a smaller man 6'2 beats a taller man 6'7?
Can you honestly not imagine how a 6'2" fighter might defeat a 6'7" one?
Really, no idea at all?
i am totaly serious, i am you, anybody on here, how does a smaller man 6'2 beat a taller man 6'7?
sure i can understand a smaller guy beating a taller guy, but i wanna understand your mindset on how a smaller man 6'2 beats a taller man 6'7?
By being quicker, by being smarter, by moving and working more intellegently, by being technically the better boxer, by hiting more accurately and harder.
How would you do it tactically? What strategy would you use?
Depends on the fighters in question.
Depends on the fighters styles, levels, stregths and weaknesses.
See David Haye vs Valuev, see any Mike Tyson fight, see Oliver Mccall or Hasim Rahman first time vs Lennox Lewis.
Smaller fighters have often beaten taller fighters.
I just don't get what point you are trying to make here?
Last edited by davie on 22 Jan 2015, 06:32, edited 1 time in total.
how does a smaller man 6'2 beat a taller man 6'7?[/quote]
Oh, are you being serious with this?
Can you honestly not imagine how a 6'2" fighter might defeat a 6'7" one?
Really, no idea at all?[/quote]
i am totaly serious, i am you, anybody on here, how does a smaller man 6'2 beat a taller man 6'7?
sure i can understand a smaller guy beating a taller guy, but i wanna understand your mindset on how a smaller man 6'2 beats a taller man 6'7?[/quote]
By being quicker, by being smarter, by moving and working more intellegently, by being technically the better boxer, by hiting more accurately and harder.
How would you do it tactically? What strategy would you use?
Depends on the fighters in question.
Depends on the fighters styles, levels, stregths and weaknesses.
See David Haye vs Valuev, see any Mike Tyson fight, see Oliver Mccall or Hasim Rahman first time vs Lennox Lewis.
Smaller fighters have often beaten taller fighters.
I just don't get what point you are trying to make here?[/quote]
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great answer. so the smaller boxer beats the taller guy, by being quicker, moving his head and upper body a lot and coming into close to the tall fighter to unleash flurry of powerful punches, right?
and now i will tell you why povetkin cant do it to wilder and why it is stupid therefore to rate him over wilder, okay.
povtkin is slow, plump. yes, he became better since the wlad loss, but he beat gys like charr and takam by standing infront of them and simply being the stronger man. also charr and takam had similar size to wilder. wilder is a total different story. to beat wilder you must come in quick with that head movemant á la tyson and put on on bombs á la tua.
neither does povetkin have the athletic ability to move his feet like tyson, nore does he have the power of tua. all povetkin is, is a solid good b fighter and thats not being mad, its just the way it is. way to flat footed, way to slow. pov got a 28 fights 20 ko ratio, he is strong, but no heavy hitter. stiverne got a 24 fights 21 ko ratio, he is even stronger than pov, even got a longer reach and he got do not much to wilder. yeah he landed some and deonthay took it. since stivernes punches are as hard or harder than pov, how are pov's punches gonne bother deonthay, who looked untouched after the fight, while stivernes face looked swollen and now he is in the hospital because he simply took to much damage, well recovery to him.
all i am saying is, the reasons why a smaller man beats a taller man simply doesnt work with povetkin and wilder. povetkin is nowhere exceptional, just solid. while wilder is exceptional athletic, has exceptional power and got a great jab and a great 1+2.
