"We All Beat Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali"

SolomonDeedes · Post by **SolomonDeedes** » 24 Mar 2014, 06:50

So a great win for an 18 year old amateur against a 25 year old pro. I actually learned something on a Duce thread, who'd have thought it?

Incidentally, here's the account of the bout from David Maraniss' Rome 1960, with no ravings about wrongly tallied scorecards or referees refusing to count:

In the semifinals he beat the air force champ, Fred Lewis. Jack Fiske, the expert boxing writer from the San Francisco Chronicle, was ringside and noted that Clay had not endeared himself to the Cow Palace afficionados. "The crowd booed cocky Cassius Clay's clear cut decision..." Fiske reported. "The fans were displeased because of the eighteen-year-old high school student's clowning tactics against the wild swinging Lewis. The loser, from Phoenix, packed plenty of power and was willing enough but was no match for Clay's ramrod left jabs and right smashes to the head."

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 24 Mar 2014, 07:21

Muhammad Ali's father once beat Cassius Clay too.

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 24 Mar 2014, 08:23

Il Duce wrote:
What about >

Fred Lewis knocking Cassius Clay on his 'coolie' in Round 2.

Cassius had entered as a 'Heavy Favorite' to win the {178 lb.} Class.

It was Fred Lewis who was 'cheered' at the Daly City, Cow Palace Arena.

A 'dejected' Cassius Clay slung his head low after the Bell sounded ending Round 3, and walked back to his corner
looking at the canvas.

Is there a link to a newspaper report at the time confirming this, or even better footage? Or is this a "beefed up" version of events from Fred Lewis many years later?

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 24 Mar 2014, 09:38

So are you saying the 23 pro fights on boxrec for Lewis were not proper pro fights?

However you want to spin it Ali was 18 and Lewis was a 25 year old man and a professional, he won the state LHW title so these other bouts you refer to are irrelevant.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 24 Mar 2014, 09:44

I have always said that there may something to be learned from an Il Duce thread. It's just rarely anything to do with what he imagines he is teaching.

Ilya Muromets · Post by **Ilya Muromets** » 23 Jan 2015, 14:43

" Post subject: Re: "We All Beat Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali"

Let's see, what other phony Clay/Ali "wins" were left off that list? The two weird Liston things, of course. George Foreman - fixed ring ropes. Antonio Inoki, the wrestler-boxer thing that was billed as a legit "shoot" (Andre the Giant fought with Chuck Wepner the same night, and that ugly affair was all too real). And, yep, 189 pound club fighter Alonzo Johnson, who had lost 6 of his last 8 fights, beat him up in 1961. You can see the Youtube of that fight, only they clipped off the ending when the announcers expressed their disbelief at the decision.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 23 Jan 2015, 16:05

x2x wrote:" Post subject: Re: "We All Beat Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali"

Let's see, what other phony Clay/Ali "wins" were left off that list? The two weird Liston things, of course. George Foreman - fixed ring ropes. Antonio Inoki, the wrestler-boxer thing that was billed as a legit "shoot" (Andre the Giant fought with Chuck Wepner the same night, and that ugly affair was all too real). And, yep, 189 pound club fighter Alonzo Johnson, who had lost 6 of his last 8 fights, beat him up in 1961. You can see the Youtube of that fight, only they clipped off the ending when the announcers expressed their disbelief at the decision.

x2x Welcome! Sadly the truth squad has arrived to offer up another thought about that Alonzo Johnson fight you speak of. Here it is.....it's a one sided fight, with one judge calling it close, another giving Clay every round, and another judge in the middle. The announcers were not in disbelief, they expected a one sided decision.
Here is the uncut film complete with announcers who were not in "disbelief". Well...except a tiny bit of surprise that the one judge had it so close.

The crowd did not seem overly impressed, as they all paid to see a KO from their local hero...and simply saw a technical outmaneuvering. Sort of boring, but no doubt as to the winner.

You gotta get up pretty early in the afternoon to sell hogwash round these parts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlW9_E1hN3U

Ilya Muromets · Post by **Ilya Muromets** » 23 Jan 2015, 22:10

BoxBuzz wrote:...

You gotta get up pretty early in the afternoon to sell hogwash round these parts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlW9_E1hN3U

You mean hogwash like the Greatest...Hype Job ever that is. Anyway, thanks for the link. Sounded like the crowd roundly booing that decision to me. I thought I remembered seeing a different version, with two announcers, and they expressed shock at the decision, but that was a few years ago. This announcer sounds like the famous Don Dunphy. And remember that Johnson was just a club fighter who had lost six of his previous 8. Interesting comment on the video one year ago by a person who said that Johnson is his grandfather and still in good shape and riding motorcycles.

Are there any of the other suspicious - to put it very mildly - Clay/Ali so-called wins mentioned above that you'd care to discuss?

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 24 Jan 2015, 00:57

x2x wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:...

You gotta get up pretty early in the afternoon to sell hogwash round these parts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlW9_E1hN3U

You mean hogwash like the Greatest...Hype Job ever that is. Anyway, thanks for the link. Sounded like the crowd roundly booing that decision to me. I thought I remembered seeing a different version, with two announcers, and they expressed shock at the decision, but that was a few years ago. This announcer sounds like the famous Les Keiter. And remember that Johnson was just a club fighter who had lost six of his previous 8. Interesting comment on the video one year ago by a person who said that Johnson is his grandfather and still in good shape and riding motorcycles.

Are there any of the other suspicious - to put it very mildly - Clay/Ali so-called wins mentioned above that you'd care to discuss?

You can use the search feature to review those conversations. There in the historical files. But remember...you came in....you claimed "x"....and it turned out to be "y". after the truth squad was on to ya.

So your cred is suspect from the gitgo. Also...what is your source for the Alonzo Johnson dive that your referred to in the other thread? In the day... the word was everyone on of those "Toronto 5" fellas were in it to foil George and help themselves out at the same time. Jerry Judge sure wasn't going quietly lol. Why in the world do you want to slander Alonzo's good name? Just because he couldn't beat Ali at the Louisville fairgrounds? You hold that against him? And now your spreading rumors about him? Like you say, he had been retired for a while, and he was taking on George when George was fresh, and only had to be there for three rounds to possibly upset George's applecart in a big way. There was some risk, but a huge opportunity for him. He didn't go in and throw it away...he did his best.

Now the next time you contribute to this forum....I want you to do your best, just like Alonzo.

Tuan_Jim · Post by **Tuan_Jim** » 24 Jan 2015, 06:12

I see Duce is so desperate he has to resurrect one of his schizophrenic alter egos to revive his threads and spew his conspiracy theories.

Don't you know Tunney Hunsaker was robbed too? Jesus, get a life.

evrenb · Post by **evrenb** » 24 Jan 2015, 06:40

Tuan_Jim wrote:I see Duce is so desperate he has to resurrect one of his schizophrenic alter egos to revive his threads and spew his conspiracy theories.

Don't you know Tunney Hunsaker was robbed too? Jesus, get a life.

Duce has frequented many other forums. At the moment he is bill Paxtom on a rival forum. His real name is Jay I believe. And if he tells you he was ringside for some of the fights of the 1960s that is pure bull. He is in his twenties!!

Tuan_Jim · Post by **Tuan_Jim** » 24 Jan 2015, 06:46

It's obvious he's a congenital liar but his interests and theories always painted him to me as an old geezer. He obviously doesn't have a job and has a lot of free time. Weird fellow.

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 24 Jan 2015, 09:50

evrenb wrote:
Tuan_Jim wrote:I see Duce is so desperate he has to resurrect one of his schizophrenic alter egos to revive his threads and spew his conspiracy theories.

Don't you know Tunney Hunsaker was robbed too? Jesus, get a life.
Duce has frequented many other forums. At the moment he is bill Paxtom on a rival forum. His real name is Jay I believe. And if he tells you he was ringside for some of the fights of the 1960s that is pure bull. He is in his twenties!!

How do you know his age and possible name? I always got the impression he was older guy

Ilya Muromets · Post by **Ilya Muromets** » 24 Jan 2015, 11:23

BoxBuzz wrote:
x2x wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:...

You gotta get up pretty early in the afternoon to sell hogwash round these parts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlW9_E1hN3U

You mean hogwash like the Greatest...Hype Job ever that is. Anyway, thanks for the link. Sounded like the crowd roundly booing that decision to me. I thought I remembered seeing a different version, with two announcers, and they expressed shock at the decision, but that was a few years ago. This announcer sounds like the famous Les Keiter. And remember that Johnson was just a club fighter who had lost six of his previous 8. Interesting comment on the video one year ago by a person who said that Johnson is his grandfather and still in good shape and riding motorcycles.

Are there any of the other suspicious - to put it very mildly - Clay/Ali so-called wins mentioned above that you'd care to discuss?
You can use the search feature to review those conversations. There in the historical files. But remember...you came in....you claimed "x"....and it turned out to be "y". after the truth squad was on to ya.

So your cred is suspect from the gitgo. Also...what is your source for the Alonzo Johnson dive that your referred to in the other thread? In the day... the word was everyone on of those "Toronto 5" fellas were in it to foil George and help themselves out at the same time. Jerry Judge sure wasn't going quietly lol. Why in the world do you want to slander Alonzo's good name? Just because he couldn't beat Ali at the Louisville fairgrounds? You hold that against him? And now your spreading rumors about him? Like you say, he had been retired for a while, and he was taking on George when George was fresh, and only had to be there for three rounds to possibly upset George's applecart in a big way. There was some risk, but a huge opportunity for him. He didn't go in and throw it away...he did his best.

Now the next time you contribute to this forum....I want you to do your best, just like Alonzo.

If you have something to post on the other thread post it on the other thread.

In the interest of keeping the "truth squad" truthful I actually watched that entire boring Clay-Johnson fight again. Famous announcer Don Dunphy did a terrible job and was extremely biased for Clay. The fight he was announcing wasn't the fight I was seeing. Only the last judge's scorecard was fair, as I will allow that Clay won the close fight by one point. The supposedly pro-Clay crowd booed the other scores, as well as the fight itself.

Ilya Muromets · Post by **Ilya Muromets** » 24 Jan 2015, 11:25

So did they ban the OP - and delete all of his posts - because he made a "politically incorrect" thread?

evrenb · Post by **evrenb** » 24 Jan 2015, 13:49

Controversial wrote:
evrenb wrote:
Tuan_Jim wrote:I see Duce is so desperate he has to resurrect one of his schizophrenic alter egos to revive his threads and spew his conspiracy theories.

Don't you know Tunney Hunsaker was robbed too? Jesus, get a life.
Duce has frequented many other forums. At the moment he is bill Paxtom on a rival forum. His real name is Jay I believe. And if he tells you he was ringside for some of the fights of the 1960s that is pure bull. He is in his twenties!!
How do you know his age and possible name? I always got the impression he was older guy

When he first started hounding the boxing forums he posted details and even a picture of himself!

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 24 Jan 2015, 14:05

evrenb wrote:

When he first started hounding the boxing forums he posted details and even a picture of himself!

Hmm probably on a wind up, I wouldn't take that as gospel

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 24 Jan 2015, 23:05

x2x wrote:

If you have something to post on the other thread post it on the other thread.

You seem confused, I always know precisely what thread I wish to post on......but thanks for the invitation, and if I have something to post on another thread, I shall do so, knowing you will likely approve!