Why cruiserweight should have stayed at 190lb

[jezzamundo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVAxz6Xf9Os

I enjoy Dwyer's video's, even if I often disagree with him and I'm not a fan of his gambling advice. While generally I believe that less weight classes is better, I can't help but agree with him here that a 185lb light cruiserweight division would be good to bridge the huge 25lb weight gap between light heavy and cruiserweight. However, my preference would actually be that for cruiserweight to be returned to its original 190lb limit.

I'm not a fan of catchweights, but I had to empathise with Danny Green, who I've met in person and was shocked by how big he is - he's got a huge frame - and how he ever managed to make super middleweight, I don't know. In his late 30s, he walked around at around 190lb and no longer wanted to starve himself to make light heavyweight, yet fighting at the full cruiserweight limit, he would have found himself up against guys who were a naturally 20lb heavier than him, who actually drained to make the 200lb limit.

Also, anyone who thinks we need a super heavyweight division clearly doesn't know what they're talking about:
- The hardest hitting heavyweight ever, Earnie Shavers, generally weighed around 210lb.
- 'BIG' George Foreman - another huge puncher - came in as light as 212lb and was generally around 220lb in his prime.
- Mike Tyson was at his best at around 218lb.
- Evander Holyfield stated that he could comfortably make the 190lb cruiserweight limit, yet was able to capture the heavyweight title after having bulked up to just over 200lb.
- Small, chubby heavyweights like Chagaev and Povetkin have recently held belts.
- A 219lb Deontay Wilder just won a share of the heavyweight title.

Klitschkos aside, the heavyweight division has been weak for over a decade. Splitting it into two, would create by far the two weakest divisions in boxing.

[Boxing Prospect]

I like it at 200lbs as it allows us to compare directly with the Heavyweights of Yore. The fact that Louis was similar in stature to a lot of Cruiserweights is a nice idea.

As for bringing it down...I dunno, I think the current crop are all big Cruisers and would be small Heavyweights.

As for the Super Heavyweight division. It's not just the Klitschko's but also Bowe and Lewis. Effectively 4 guys who have ran the division for the best part of the last 25 years. That's not to say I want a Super Heavyweight division, but more that I think it'd be more unfair on a Marco Huck or Denis Lebedev to expect them to give away 20lbs and 6" or 7" rather than have a guy like Green bulk up an extra 10lbs-15lbs and be a similar frame.

[ReggieDiggs]

I like the 200lb limit. And I always hated the 190lb limit. For whatever reason a HW always started at 200lbs for me anyway, unofficially obviously.

Hell personally I'd rather see some of the lower divisions killed as its overkill already. MMA does things right with weight divisions imho. Although they don't got a history with random numbered divisions like 122 & 147 so they can not give any f#cks with rounding up 147lbs cuz 147lbs don't make no kind of sense. The UFC gots 9 divisions that are actually active divisions (females & male).

265lbs - Heavyweight
205lbs - Light Heavyweight
185lbs - Middleweight
170lbs - Welterweight
155lbs - Lightweight
145lbs - Featherweight
135lbs - Bantamweight
125lbs - Flyweight
115lbs - Strawweight

I wish boxing would do something like this. No one gives a f#ck about the 200 guys fighting at 105. Lets combine those smaller divisions so we got some better competition at the top & so you gotta be better than a thousand guys instead of 200 guys or w/e.

[Looking On]

a lot of the independant / semi pro/ white collar / unlicensed (whatever you wish to call them) in UK have adopted dropping cruiserweight to a 14st (196lb) limit and adding a super cruiserweight division with a 15st (210lb limit) limit.
Maybe something similar would be good in the pro game

[Blodhemn]

Holy shit at the quoted eye sore...

There shouldn't be a Super HW division, but there also shouldn't be a cut back to 190lbs. You correctly state a Super HW division would water things down more, well wouldn't that essentially do the same for CW if it were back to 190lbs? Let's not forget that the CW was incredibly thin when it was at the 190 limit for most of it's existence. Other than Danny Green, this doesn't really benefit anyone, and nothing stopped him from creating his Dannyweight class anyway. While many of the larger CWs could beat a lot of the HWs in the top 10 already, essentially proving their worth as HWs as is, none of them stand a chance against Wladimir and it serves them little purpose to move up other than to create a stacked division, which is already what CW has been. So essentally, it doesn't really make much difference other than pretty much kill the CW division.

[jezzamundo]

Most of the top cruiserweights today could make 190lb. I think we're going to see more and more fighters draining to make 175lb, knowing they aren't big enough to beat the top fully fledged cruiserweights. 25lb is too large of a gap.

With heavyweights, I don't think the weight advantage is so important, because beyond a certain size - I would argue around 210lb, punching power seems to max out and any increase in size is coupled with a decrease in speed.

Fergusg, a lot of your examples are, in fact, redundant, because you are quoting fighter's weights when they are clearly overweight. Povetkin and Chagaev would fall easily under your 215lb limit if they were in top shape and they would be better heavyweights for it. What does it matter what Foreman and Tyson weighed in their last fights - the lighter, younger versions of themselves were clearly superior.

Why would you exclude former CWs from Wlad's opposition? That makes no sense.

Perhaps it would make more sense to keep the CW limit at 200lb and introduce a 185lb division, if, as I predict, we see a growing number of small cruiserweights who are unable to make 175lb.

If you introduced a 215lb division, the following heavyweights could fight there:
Povetkin
Glazkov
Tarver
Jennings
Solis
Cunningham
Mike Perez
Szpilka
Chagaev

I know many of the above don't have the discipline to keep under 215lb, but they certainly have the body size to do so. A 215lb division would just weaken the cruiserweight division and the heavyweight division and would be a weak division itself - not good for boxing.

[jezzamundo]

I like the 200lb limit. And I always hated the 190lb limit. For whatever reason a HW always started at 200lbs for me anyway, unofficially obviously.

Hell personally I'd rather see some of the lower divisions killed as its overkill already. MMA does things right with weight divisions imho. Although they don't got a history with random numbered divisions like 122 & 147 so they can not give any f#cks with rounding up 147lbs cuz 147lbs don't make no kind of sense. The UFC gots 9 divisions that are actually active divisions (females & male).

265lbs - Heavyweight
205lbs - Light Heavyweight
185lbs - Middleweight
170lbs - Welterweight
155lbs - Lightweight
145lbs - Featherweight
135lbs - Bantamweight
125lbs - Flyweight
115lbs - Strawweight

I wish boxing would do something like this. No one gives a f#ck about the 200 guys fighting at 105. Lets combine those smaller divisions so we got some better competition at the top & so you gotta be better than a thousand guys instead of 200 guys or w/e.

I'd rather see it like this:

Unlimited - Heavyweight
190lb - Cruiserweight
175lb - Light Heavyweight
160lb - Middleweight
147lb - Welterweight
135lb - Lightweight
126lb - Featherweight
118lb - Bantamweight
112lb - Flyweight
105lb - Minimumweight

A return to the classic weight classes - less divisions means stronger divisions. Oh, and a return to one belt per weight class would be great too!

[Blodhemn]

So you think it's too hard for Danny to cut from 190 to 175, but expect other fighters to cut just as much, if not more, to make 190? Someone like Hernandez would find it hard to make that weight and couldn't dream of facing HWs. One of the longest belt holders in the division is supposed to move up and fight opponents 20-30-40+ lbs bigger?

[Tarkus]

Easiest solution to this problem is to increae LHW to 180 as it is too close to SMW and too far to CW.

Of course if boxing was properly governed, the entire system would have been amended. Reduced down to 10 weight classes perhaps.

[Tony1244]

Easiest solution to this problem is to increae LHW to 180 as it is too close to SMW and too far to CW.

Of course if boxing was properly governed, the entire system would have been amended. Reduced down to 10 weight classes perhaps.

I'd go back to the original 8 classes but add cruiserweight @ 200. Get rid of all Junior/super divisions. They're hurting the sport by preventing great matchups.

[Karl Jade]

Nathan Cleverly would certainly agree with this. He'd be awesome at 185-190.

[dempseyfire]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVAxz6Xf9Os

I enjoy Dwyer's video's, even if I often disagree with him and I'm not a fan of his gambling advice. While generally I believe that less weight classes is better, I can't help but agree with him here that a 185lb light cruiserweight division would be good to bridge the huge 25lb weight gap between light heavy and cruiserweight. However, my preference would actually be that for cruiserweight to be returned to its original 190lb limit.

I'm not a fan of catchweights, but I had to empathise with Danny Green, who I've met in person and was shocked by how big he is - he's got a huge frame - and how he ever managed to make super middleweight, I don't know. In his late 30s, he walked around at around 190lb and no longer wanted to starve himself to make light heavyweight, yet fighting at the full cruiserweight limit, he would have found himself up against guys who were a naturally 20lb heavier than him, who actually drained to make the 200lb limit.

Also, anyone who thinks we need a super heavyweight division clearly doesn't know what they're talking about:
- The hardest hitting heavyweight ever, Earnie Shavers, generally weighed around 210lb.
- 'BIG' George Foreman - another huge puncher - came in as light as 212lb and was generally around 220lb in his prime.
- Mike Tyson was at his best at around 218lb.
- Evander Holyfield stated that he could comfortably make the 190lb cruiserweight limit, yet was able to capture the heavyweight title after having bulked up to just over 200lb.
- Small, chubby heavyweights like Chagaev and Povetkin have recently held belts.
- A 219lb Deontay Wilder just won a share of the heavyweight title.

Klitschkos aside, the heavyweight division has been weak for over a decade. Splitting it into two, would create by far the two weakest divisions in boxing.

There shouldn't even be a cruiserweight division. Look at how many top guys Eddie Chambers beat and in top shape he'd be around 180 lbs (please don't tell me his love handles and man-boobs helped him take the big blows!).

[ikorolev]

Fewer weight classes would mean that more fighters would severely drain themselves. For example, if there were no LMW and SMW divisions, some of fighters who are now comfortable at 154, would need to drain themselves to 147, because they are too small to fight with natural middleweights or even natural super-middleweights who had to drain themselves to 160 (being too small for LHW). Also, more fighters per weight class would cause appearance of more fake belts.

I would favor a cruiserweight division at 190, heavyweight at 210-215 and super-heavyweight above that.

[Perseus]

[quote="ikorolev"]Fewer weight classes would mean that more fighters would severely drain themselves. For example, if there were no LMW and SMW divisions, some of fighters who are now comfortable at 154, would need to drain themselves to 147, because they are too small to fight with natural middleweights or even natural super-middleweights who had to drain themselves to 160 (being too small for LHW). Also, more fighters per weight class would cause appearance of more fake belts.

I would favor a cruiserweight division at 190, heavyweight at 210-215 and super-heavyweight above that.[/quote]

Excellent points.

imo the only way a new weight class above 175 should be created is if one of the lower weight classes is eliminated.
The weight divisions need some change but what boxing does not need is MORE weight divisions.
From 105-118lbs there are five divisions. Get rid of one of them then add a division between 175 and 200.
My suggestion: eliminate the 115lb class then create a 188lb division.

[expe]

Fewer weight classes would mean that more fighters would severely drain themselves. For example, if there were no LMW and SMW divisions, some of fighters who are now comfortable at 154, would need to drain themselves to 147, because they are too small to fight with natural middleweights or even natural super-middleweights who had to drain themselves to 160 (being too small for LHW). Also, more fighters per weight class would cause appearance of more fake belts.

I would favor a cruiserweight division at 190, heavyweight at 210-215 and super-heavyweight above that.

This, but we need a new weight name, heavyweight has to be the top division, none of this super heavyweight bollocks.

[Tarkus]

If there were only 10 divisions it would be much more difficult to move from one division to another. But that is the idea of weight divisions. It is same in all other ports that has weight classes. There is also the issue of weigh in that can be improved in boxing so that fighters don't come on the ring huge above the limit.

Less divisions also mean more competition for titles and therefore worthier champions. Most of the weight classes are too diluted right now with often two or three fighters at the top. In middle weight there is only one. Too little competition.

[jezzamundo]

While Eddie Chambers is a good example of a little guy who had success at heavyweight - I'd say he's more on an exception than a rule and has capitalized on a weak era for heavyweights - Klitschkos aside. I certainly can't agree that there shouldn't be a cruiserweight division, I just think it makes more sense at 190lb.

As for the big cruiserweights like Hernandez - to me, they are heavyweights and if they can't make 190lb healthily, then heavyweight is where they should be fighting. Hernandez is bigger than many of the top guys at heavyweight today. Huck almost beating Povetkin - arguably the #2 heavyweight in the world - is another good example. While the cruiserweight division would lose some of the big guys, it would also gain the big light heavyweights. Heavyweight would be better for it, cruiserweight wouldn't suffer, but light heavyweight would be somewhat weakened.

[Tarkus]

Marco Huck might have had success against a smaller HW like Povetkin but against a real big man he would look like a baby. Just watch Cunningham vs Fury. He pushed him around and spanked him like a child.

There is a dead weight between 200 to 220 were there are almost no fighters. Because to big man you'd give away too much weight. At 190 the dead space would be even bigger. And fighters that are 220 would not even be able to make CW like they do now.

[ikorolev]

Marco Huck might have had success against a smaller HW like Povetkin but against a real big man he would look like a baby. Just watch Cunningham vs Fury. He pushed him around and spanked him like a child.

There is a dead weight between 200 to 220 were there are almost no fighters. Because to big man you'd give away too much weight. At 190 the dead space would be even bigger. And fighters that are 220 would not even be able to make CW like they do now.

That's why a 190-220/215/210 division could benefit smaller heavyweights.

[dempseyfire]

Marco Huck might have had success against a smaller HW like Povetkin but against a real big man he would look like a baby. Just watch Cunningham vs Fury. He pushed him around and spanked him like a child.

There is a dead weight between 200 to 220 were there are almost no fighters. Because to big man you'd give away too much weight. At 190 the dead space would be even bigger. And fighters that are 220 would not even be able to make CW like they do now.

Cunningham-Fury is your example? Cunningham was past his prime and had always been a light hitter (with a boxing style that relied on staying at range with his reach, a horrible style vs a 6'8 fighter), but he drops an over 10 years younger and much bigger Fury HARD on his a$$.

[Blodhemn]

Yeah.. that's not a good example, yet Cunningham still dropped Fury... Lol. Haye, who is more or less a CW still, would've murdered Fury. A shame he's so fragile or else the hype that is Fury would already be over.

I just got around to watching Dwyer's drawn out video - there's just too many inconsistencies in almost every example he gives to strengthen his argument.

--HWs were small in Marciano's days anyway.
--Haye benefited from CW being at 200, not the other way around.
--Cleverly didn't lose to Bellew at CW because he was smaller, but because Kovalev ruined his fighting mentality, which was his best asset.
--Kovalev, Stevenson, Beterbiev are some of the biggest punchers in the sport... no matter how you're faring on the scales, if you get hit on the chin by these guys, it's bad damn news.
--Pascal isn't weight drained at 175. Wtf?
--Beterbiev would do as good at CW as he would at LHW. He fought the huge and excellent Usyk in the amateurs and knocked him down in close fights.
--Lewis would be seen as a smallish HW today? He'd still be one of the top 2 punchers and his only competition would still be the Klitschkos. What's the point, again? Lewis doesn't beat Wach? Lol
--Adamek wasn't given enough weight class choices to fight? He fought in 3!!!!!!!!!!!!

--I agree that the lower weights are far too abundant, thus making a mockery of the sport with claims of 6 weight class champion and all of that hyped up junk that comes from being in the hyped up weight classes, but CW will never be a celebrated division like that. LHW isn't even celebrated, and HW will only be celebrated with an American or British champ, so the idea that more weights, belts and thus larger claims to P4P status because you have more belts would also bring more attention to the higher weights classes is simply wrong. Just look at Adamek... good fighter, got lucky to have his Polish American transplanted fans, but he still wasn't celebrated or talked about by the boxing media even so. So then, why try and ruin/water down a weight class like the lower weights have done?

[dominik]

It might be controversial because it is a very traditional Division but I think with the SMW Division the LHW Needs to be moved up.

a 7 lb difference at that weight is just not enough, that is even smaller than between MW and SMW. you have to consider than 5 lb at 140lb is much more than 5 lb at 200 lb (larger percent difference).

I would move the LHW to 180.

make it

MW: 160
SMW: 168 (+8)
LHW: 180 (+12)
CW: 200 (+20)


that makes much more sense than

MW: 160
SMW: 168(+8)
LHW: 175 (+7)
CW: 200 (+25)

I also don't think we Need a SHW Division. of course a really skilled "superheavyweight" like lennox lewis or klitschko is hard to beat, but 99% of all heavies over 240 are either fat or not really good (or both). if you get larger you also get slower and you are gassed easier, most good HWs are 220-235.

of course for a 205 HW it is hard to compete with a good 230 HW but guys under 210 could easily go down to cruiser if they wanted too.

[Dennis]

The same argument can be made with some lower weight classes. 140 to 147 to 154 each have 7# increases while going from 154 to 160 is only a 6# increase.
If weight classes at the top end of the weights were to increase, the following could also occur: 160-MW, 170-SMW, 185-LHW, 210-CW, and +210-HW. Makes as much sense as anything else proposed without adding more weight classes which I'm against.

[jujigatame]

I think 195 would have been a decent compromise, although I don't really mind 200. The problem with 190 was that it left guys who naturally weigh around 210-220 without a weight class. Yes they could just fight at HW but to weigh 215 and compete in the HW division you have to be truly elite. With the CW division at 200 they don't have to drop an excessive amount of weight to fight guys their own size.

The only reason 195 would be a slightly better compromise than 200 is because right now, guys who weigh in the 195-200 range face a problem themselves. The drop to 175 is too big for them to make comfortably, but in the CW division they have potential to fight guys draining from as high as 215-220.

[tiny_acres]

A very good 210 pound man can not defeat a great 245 pound man.
I would like to see it another way but I can't.
The cruserweight division is just right at 200 pounds in my opinion.