Larry Holmes: Wilder or Stiverne would beat Klitschko

[Cap]

Let's face it except for a really good thumb-in-the-eye, all Holmes had was his jab. That was his money ticket and claim to fame. He can't stand someone maybe as good or even, heaven-forbid, better than him. He'll never admit that the present version of Wlad Klitschko likely would have made him cry for his Mama.

[greg]

..I guess it's age, jealousy, support of his countrymen, couple of other things...all combined...

[reggaereggae]

Holmes makes no secret of hating whites so this may colour his opinion (sic)

That is utter nonsense. I've known Larry for years and I'm white and we always get along. I met him through a white guy, I've met other white friends of his, it's just ridiculous. Larry Holmes doesn't hate anyone, much less the entire white race.

Well, you have t heard him talk behind your back :-)

He used to come out with plenty of hate the White Man style stuff, maybe he's chilled out.

He certainly seems to be a Klitschko hater though!

[cold187]

dementia

[Tony1244]

Holmes makes no secret of hating whites so this may colour his opinion (sic)

Utter nonsense. Holmes has white in-laws and if he felt that way there are plenty of great black trainers, he didn't need Richie Giachetti and Ray Arcel.

Saying Klitschko doesn't have a jab is also nonsense, but not the moronic kind of nonsense. regarding Holmes being high or drunk, he has earned that right.

Klitschko is in awe of Muhammad Ali, as well he should be, and that rubs Holmes the wrong way. Simple jealousy, we all have that.

[Tony1244]

He used to come out with plenty of hate the White Man style stuff, maybe he's chilled out. quote]>>reggaereggae

You're lying again. Supply one example.

[Badhusker]

To say that Wlad has no jab is actually kind of funny. Does he have a Larry Holmes type jab? no

Holmes did show us why the jab is probably the most under-rated punch, and why it should be used more. I think it was Cap that pointed out he didn't have a big arsenal other than his jab, but was the best in the game using it at the time.

The reason I think it is possibly that Stiverne or Wilder could beat Wlad is for a couple of reasons. First of all, he is nearing the end of his career. I doubt if he could hurt Stiverne or take him out since Wilder couldn't. Stiverne could hurt Wlad, as he was KO'd a few times. Wilder I would say is faster than Wlad, but lacks the over-all skills in all other departments except power. Its the power of his punches that gives him a good chance against any heavy, and with his height and reach it will help too. Both are long shots, but both could possibly do it.

Has any heavyweight underwent random blood testing before fights? That might help too. :idea:

[tiny_acres]

Holmes makes no secret of hating whites so this may colour his opinion (sic)

That is utter nonsense. I've known Larry for years and I'm white and we always get along. I met him through a white guy, I've met other white friends of his, it's just ridiculous. Larry Holmes doesn't hate anyone, much less the entire white race.

He certainly seems to be a Klitschko hater though!

I will not get into the racism.

But it is not hard to hate Wlad as a fighter.
I enjoy pure boxers but I want excitement in the heavyweight division.I hold them to a different standard.
I know it is not right to have a heavyweight standard for excitement and an every other boxer standard but I do.
Wlad is just so boring to watch.I think he is a great guy.A great role model.But I hate watching him

[Tony1244]

I will not get into the racism.

But it is not hard to hate Wlad as a fighter.
I enjoy pure boxers but I want excitement in the heavyweight division.I hold them to a different standard.
I know it is not right to have a heavyweight standard for excitement and an every other boxer standard but I do.
Wlad is just so boring to watch.I think he is a great guy.A great role model.But I hate watching him[/quote]>>>tiny_acres


I agree with most of this, but a part of the reason he is boring is because he is a so good, and he has said that himself. Glad has said he has worked hard to "be boring." One sided fights are more boring.

Having said that, I'd like someone like Fury or Wilder to take over the division because they are more fan friendly and have exciting fights. Being a Westerner, I relate to them more. But I'n no Klitschko hater. The K brothers are smart, successful and great fighters and last time I checked those were all compliments.

[cold187]

lennox lewis was boring too according to your theory

[tiny_acres]

I will not get into the racism.

But it is not hard to hate Wlad as a fighter.
I enjoy pure boxers but I want excitement in the heavyweight division.I hold them to a different standard.
I know it is not right to have a heavyweight standard for excitement and an every other boxer standard but I do.
Wlad is just so boring to watch.I think he is a great guy.A great role model.But I hate watching him

>>>tiny_acres


I agree with most of this, but a part of the reason he is boring is because he is a so good, and he has said that himself. Glad has said he has worked hard to "be boring." One sided fights are more boring.

Having said that, I'd like someone like Fury or Wilder to take over the division because they are more fan friendly and have exciting fights. Being a Westerner, I relate to them more. But I'n no Klitschko hater. The K brothers are smart, successful and great fighters and last time I checked those were all compliments.[/quote]

Tony. I have to disagree with one part of your comment. Wlad is boring because of the hugging. I am not saying he is not great but that clinching puts me to sleep.

[Coachmanager]

The reason I think it is possibly that Stiverne or Wilder could beat Wlad is for a couple of reasons. First of all, he is nearing the end of his career. I doubt if he could hurt Stiverne or take him out since Wilder couldn't.:

Why? Stiverne is a perfect candidate to be stopped for Wlad, a slow punching bag. Wilder right hand is wild and faster than Wladimir's but Wlad jab hurt boxers while Wilder's jab against Stiverne was a tool to land the right. I think that Wlad punish Stiverne in a hard way.

[punchoutsb]

The reason I think it is possibly that Stiverne or Wilder could beat Wlad is for a couple of reasons. First of all, he is nearing the end of his career. I doubt if he could hurt Stiverne or take him out since Wilder couldn't.:

Why? Stiverne is a perfect candidate to be stopped for Wlad, a slow punching bag. Wilder right hand is wild and faster than Wladimir's but Wlad jab hurt boxers while Wilder's jab against Stiverne was a tool to land the right. I think that Wlad punish Stiverne in a hard way.

Wlad is also so much more precise. Precision and scary power are a more potent combination than wild and scary power.

[Lackeos]

There's thousands of pro boxers with no jab, and Larry Holmes isn't saying anything about any of them. Wlad is among the greatest heavyweights of all-time, he might have the #1 heavyweight jab of all time, and Larry Holmes is saying he has no jab. You can tell who Larry Holmes is jealous of.

[Tony1244]

There's thousands of pro boxers with no jab, and Larry Holmes isn't saying anything about any of them. Wlad is among the greatest heavyweights of all-time, he might have the #1 heavyweight jab of all time, and Larry Holmes is saying he has no jab. You can tell who Larry Holmes is jealous of.

Sure Holmes may be jealous. Envy is part of the human condition. We have all spewed BS at some time. My point is the racial angle here is ridiculous, not the jealousy part.

[Tony1244]

Tony. I have to disagree with one part of your comment. Wlad is boring because of the hugging. I am not saying he is not great but that clinching puts me to sleep.[/quote]>>>tiny_acres


The hugging and the pushing down has become tiresome. Ali use to get away with literally hundreds of clinches (holding behind the neck in his case) against Frazier 2&3, Foreman and others. I'd like to see the ref enforce the rules against Wlad.

[lookingaround87]

Amazing to think there are still imbeciles like this idiot Coldko in the world.

He's a moron but let's not kid ourself into believing we don't know where exactly Holmes is coming from with his criticism of Wlad. He hates him, and we all know why.

[pound per pound]

Does anybody genuinely believe that “Klitschko has no jab, no heart & would be beaten by Wilder or Stiverne”?

Yes.

- Larry Holmes
- ESPN's Teddy Atlas and Eric Raskin
- "dempseyfire" and at least 10 other regulars here at boxrec
- at least 20 regular posters at ESB
- at least 15 at checkhookboxing
- at least 12 at BS where I made this same thread (check the replies).
- I also made this thread at saddoboxing, and you can easily check it and see that some over there too are in full agreement with Larry.

Hatred sometimes blinds people from seeing reality.

The more successful you are, the more detractors you'll get. Holmes is back to his sour grapes. Might his comment be aimed at jealously as Wlad has a chance to put some distance between Holmes 20 successful heavyweight title defenses? I think so.

[Tony1244]

Larry Holmes: Wilder or Stiverne would beat Klitschko

Larry Holmes competed in 22 world heavyweight title fights between 1978 & 1986. His average weight for those bouts was 216lbs.

If we exclude the anomalous David Bey, Randall Cobb & Leroy Jones from his list of opponents, as they were freakishly heavy and not representative of a typical title challenger, the average weight of a Larry Holmes opponent for 19 defences of his belt(s) was only 213lbs.

If you exclude the equally anomalous “small” heavyweight opponents, who have all campaigned as cruiserweights (i.e. Chris Byrd, Eddie Chambers, David Haye & Jean Marc Mormeck) from the 26 world title fights that Wladimir Klitschko has competed in, the average weight of a Dr. Steelhammer title challenger is 239lbs. Wladmir's average over the course of the same 21 bouts was 244lbs.

Do we really honestly believe that a 216lb Larry Holmes would have been equally as successful in the modern era facing 239lb behemoths? Would he have been able to overcome a 28lb weight disadvantage against Klitschko?

This is just something for you all to consider… ;;-)

A 216 Larry Holmes would have had a tough time against a Kltschko or Lennox Lewis, not because those 3 are 245 but because they're great fighters. Holmes would have had no problem whatsoever with a Povetkin or Valuev. So it's not size, it's talent.

[tiny_acres]

Larry Holmes: Wilder or Stiverne would beat Klitschko

Larry Holmes competed in 22 world heavyweight title fights between 1978 & 1986. His average weight for those bouts was 216lbs.

If we exclude the anomalous David Bey, Randall Cobb & Leroy Jones from his list of opponents, as they were freakishly heavy and not representative of a typical title challenger, the average weight of a Larry Holmes opponent for 19 defences of his belt(s) was only 213lbs.

If you exclude the equally anomalous “small” heavyweight opponents, who have all campaigned as cruiserweights (i.e. Chris Byrd, Eddie Chambers, David Haye & Jean Marc Mormeck) from the 26 world title fights that Wladimir Klitschko has competed in, the average weight of a Dr. Steelhammer title challenger is 239lbs. Wladmir's average over the course of the same 21 bouts was 244lbs.

Do we really honestly believe that a 216lb Larry Holmes would have been equally as successful in the modern era facing 239lb behemoths? Would he have been able to overcome a 28lb weight disadvantage against Klitschko?

This is just something for you all to consider… ;;-)

A 216 Larry Holmes would have had a tough time against a Kltschko or Lennox Lewis, not because those 3 are 245 but because they're great fighters. Holmes would have had no problem whatsoever with a Povetkin or Valuev. So it's not size, it's talent.

yes you are right.Holmes was an atg.
II would favor him to win against Wlad and Lewis.
But it will take not a good small heavyweight but a borderline great small heavyweight to beat Klitschko.
Good vs great when the size is the deciding factor I would choose the great.

[reggaereggae]

Holmes is severely overrated. He never beat anyone half decent in their prime. His best won is a split decision over a very green Tim Witherspoon, who was hardly a legend either.

[Tony1244]

Here’s a list of the world title fights that Larry Holmes emerged victorious:
• Carl Williams
• James Smith
• Scott Frank
• Tim Witherspoon
• Lucien Rodriguez
• Gerry Cooney
• Renaldo Snipes
• Leon Spinks
• Trevor Berbick
• Muhammad Ali
• Scott LeDoux
• Lorenzo Zanon
• Earnie Shavers
• Mike Weaver
• Ossie Ocasio
• Alfredo Evangelista
• Ken Norton

His victories over Tim Witherspoon & Ken Norton were impressive, but unfortunately for him, he fought in an era where the quality of opposition he faced was merely mediocre.

In a similar way to what Golovkin is doing right now, at least he can lay claim to being the dominant and undisputed long-term champion, even though there was a distinct lack of big names available for him to fight.

If you compare the title challengers to what Wladimir faced, are the two eras that much different (in calibre of opposition)?

Here’s a list of the men that Klitschko successfully defeated in 24 of his world heavyweight championship fights:
• Kubrat Pulev
• Alex Leapai
• Alexander Povetkin
• Francesco Pianeta
• Mariusz Wach
• Tony Thompson
• Jean Marc Mormeck
• David Haye
• Samuel Peter
• Eddie Chambers
• Ruslan Chagaev
• Hasim Rahman
• Sultan Ibragimov
• Lamon Brewster
• Ray Austin
• Calvin Brock
• Chris Byrd
• Jameel McCline
• Ray Mercer
• Frans Botha
• Charles Shufford
• Derrick Jefferson

None of Holmes' victims would give a Klitschko any trouble with the exception of a much younger Ali or possibly Kenny Norton.

Likewise, none of Klit's victims would give a prime Ali or prime Holmes any trouble at all.

[Ilya Muromets]

"If you compare the title challengers to what Wladimir faced, are the two eras that much different (in calibre of opposition)?"


Yes, despite the constant propaganda in the US media, parroted on these boxing forums, that the heavyweight division is now bad, in fact it is bigger and stronger and better and far more international in scope than it has ever been before.


"None of Holmes' victims would give a Klitschko any trouble with the exception of a much younger Ali or possibly Kenny Norton."

Ali has become the biggest hype job in history. He couldn't even beat men weighing in their 180's (like Henry Cooper and Doug Jones) without cheating and crooked judging, and half his other victories were fake besides, like the two against the above mentioned Ken Norton for instance. How do you think he'd look in the ring against a modern super heavy? All he'd be able to do would be to run away, or try some rope a dope trick, and you need to be a. a dope to play that game, and b. have the ring ropes fixed besides. As for Ken Norton, who in reality beat Ali 2 out of 3, see what Gerry Cooney did to him. And as for the "much younger Ali", look at the much younger Ali squeak out a victory, if that's even what it was, against club fighter Alonzo Johnson, who lost six of his previous 8, and weighed 189 (I just watched that snoozefest).

Idiotic thread about some ravings of a punch drunk ex-boxer keeps getting bumped.

[Tony1244]

[quote="x2x"]"If you compare the title challengers to what Wladimir faced, are the two eras that much different (in calibre of opposition)?"


Yes, despite the constant propaganda in the US media, parroted on these boxing forums, that the heavyweight division is now bad, in fact it is bigger and stronger and better and far more international in scope than it has ever been before.


"None of Holmes' victims would give a Klitschko any trouble with the exception of a much younger Ali or possibly Kenny Norton."

Ali has become the biggest hype job in history. He couldn't even beat men weighing in their 180's (like Henry Cooper and Doug Jones) without cheating and crooked judging, and half his other victories were fake besides, like the two against the above mentioned Ken Norton for instance. How do you think he'd look in the ring against a modern super heavy? All he'd be able to do would be to run away, or try some rope a dope trick, and you need to be a. a dope to play that game, and b. have the ring ropes fixed besides. As for Ken Norton, who in reality beat Ali 2 out of 3, see what Gerry Cooney did to him. And as for the "much younger Ali", look at the much younger Ali squeak out a victory, if that's even what it was, against club fighter Alonzo Johnson, who lost six of his previous 8, and weighed 189 (I just watched that snoozefest).Quote >>>X2X

This has more holes in it than Swiss cheese. If you look at anybody at their worst, they're not going to look very good. Need we go into the details of Wlad vs. Puritty, Brewster, and Sanders? Didn't think so. Ali was never knocked out or beaten by anyone like that. He beat Cooper easily twice. I watched the Jones fight and saw Ali winning quite easily. The decision was booed because the brash Clay predicted a KO. Norton was a superb fighter. He got stopped by 2 of the biggest punchers of all-time. Yes, he lost to a Garcia but sheet happens, not to Ali though, he wasn't stopped until he was sick and that was to Holmes. Cooney was an excellent puncher, and Norton was way washed by that time. Ali played with Alonzo Johnson, next...

[energie]

It shows larry holmes is just another niger

thats just plain wrong to say dude / i hope you get banned