About Joe Bugner

[scorpio83]

I recently read the book called "Joe Bugner: My Story" and it's about his early life in his birthplace of Hungary before moving to England as a child to escape communism. The book talked about his boxing career and was a good contender in the time of the 1970s Golden Age of the Heavyweights with the greats like Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Frazier, Norton, Lyle, Shavers, Ellis, Quarry and others. Bugner acknowledged George Foreman as the oldest World Heavyweight Champion in history at 45, but something that confused me that Bugner claimed that he was the oldest World Heavyweight Champion at 48 when he won the WBF title which a minor title and it doesn't count as a major title. Bugner is actually the oldest minor heavyweight champion. Why would he claim he was the oldest champion? Is it because Bugner never claimed the actual major world title and claimed the minor title, so he can make himself looked good even though he never won it? BTW, B-Hop is the oldest champion of all division at 48.

[evrenb]

I recently read the book called "Joe Bugner: My Story" and it's about his early life in his birthplace of Hungary before moving to England as a child to escape communism. The book talked about his boxing career and was a good contender in the time of the 1970s Golden Age of the Heavyweights with the greats like Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Frazier, Norton, Lyle, Shavers, Ellis, Quarry and others. Bugner acknowledged George Foreman as the oldest World Heavyweight Champion in history at 45, but something that confused me that Bugner claimed that he was the oldest World Heavyweight Champion at 48 when he won the WBF title which a minor title and it doesn't count as a major title. Bugner is actually the oldest minor heavyweight champion. Why would he claim he was the oldest champion? Is it because Bugner never claimed the actual major world title and claimed the minor title, so he can make himself looked good even though he never won it? BTW, B-Hop is the oldest champion of all division at 48.

You got it ! The WBF count for nothing! I think they presented, I think Greg Haugen with that belt after he won a match and he didnt even know about it. He asked if it was the World Butt Fuc*ing championships...lmao

[SteveO]

Aged 48 years 113 days, Joe Bugner beat James 'Bonecrusher' Smith for the vacant WBF title on 4th July 1998 in Australia.
Smith could not start the 2nd round due to a dislocated shoulder.

[evrenb]

I watched that fight... An absolute debacle!!

[SteveO]

I watched it too, and you're right...it was a debacle. Joe was so proud that he was now the heavyweight champion of the world!
Incidentally Smith was 45 years 92 days old, making their combined ages 93 years 305 days! That must be a record for a 'title' fight.

[Ambling Alp II]

Who knows if HBO decrees some day that the WBF is a major title, eventually people will forget that it ever was a minor title. Then they will notice that Bugner had won this and he will be considered the oldest champion.

Seem farfetched? People seem to think forget the WBO title was a minor title for long time.

[Tuan_Jim]

In order to further propagate the 'greatness' of the Klitschko brothers, all of their WBO title fights have been retroactively deemed actual heavyweight title reigns it seems, and are routinely used to beef up their stats and therefore 'credibility' both on TV and on forums.

This practice brings us into a world where Mike Tyson was never the undisputed heavyweight champ because Francesco Damiani was fighting Daniel Netto, a world were Tyson/Ruddock I & II, Lewis/Ruddock, Bowe/Holyfield III and both Bowe/Golota bouts were non-title fights, while Herbie Hide vs Damon Reed and Willi Fischer were fights for the heavyweight championship of the world.

[tiny_acres]

In order to further propagate the 'greatness' of the Klitschko brothers, all of their WBO title fights have been retroactively deemed actual heavyweight title reigns it seems, and are routinely used to beef up their stats and therefore 'credibility' both on TV and on forums.

This practice brings us into a world where Mike Tyson was never the undisputed heavyweight champ because Francesco Damiani was fighting Daniel Netto, a world were Tyson/Ruddock I & II, Lewis/Ruddock, Bowe/Holyfield III and both Bowe/Golota bouts were non-title fights, while Herbie Hide vs Damon Reed and Willi Fischer were fights for the heavyweight championship of the world.

You nailed it with this one!!!!
The WBO was not accepted as a WORLD title and now we are supposed to accept it.BS

[Ketchel]

Like we accept WBA Interim champs, regular champs & super champs. WBC silver & diamond belts. More people with belts than without it seems.

[tiny_acres]

Like we accept WBA Interim champs, regular champs & super champs. WBC silver & diamond belts. More people with belts than without it seems.

It is a joke.I played a game on the internet that you had to name every world heavyweight champion.
They had Jimmy Thunder listed as a freaking world champion since he held the IBO bullsquirt title.
When will it end?

[dempseyfire]

I mean, heck the guy was 48 years old; let him believe the belt meant something.

But yes, boxing in the last 30 years has produced so many belts that a belt or "title defense" means practically nothing. I love how the sanctioning bodies have created 'interim' and 'super' titles out of their a$$ . . how Povetkin suddenly became the "regular" WBA champ still makes zero sense.

Hated how in the lead-up to last week's fight both Stiverne and Wilder were talking like the fight was for the actual HW championship. Gone are the days when Joe Louis, after beating Braddock, was asked how he felt being world champion, and he said he wouldn't feel like the champ until beating Max Schmeling . . avenging his only loss! No HW today is champ of anything without beating Klitschko.

[Broomhall]

For the purist it isnt great. But the belt and multi title system has created many more opportunities to make money. When I was a kid a contender might wait years to get a title shot and earn some real cash.

Most boxing fans know who who the real champ is in each division and I got no issues with an old pro like Joe making some cash in his twilight years. You got to love "Aussie" Joe-always good fun and when he wanted to he could fight.

[Ambling Alp II]

Contenders used to actually fight each other for real cash. When there was only one (or even two) champion (s), those fights meant something.
Now there is no need to fight another contender. Just bide your time until you get a shot at some one WBS title or another.

[Tuan_Jim]

There is no positive spin whatsoever to put on the explosion of title belts - unless you are a promoter, a fighter that falls short of genuine championship class, or are one of those weird jingoistic or territorial types who are happy for the illustrious history of championship boxing to be muddied because it means their fellow hometown fighter can be called a 'world champion'.

[Broomhall]

Contenders used to actually fight each other for real cash. When there was only one (or even two) champion (s), those fights meant something.
Now there is no need to fight another contender. Just bide your time until you get a shot at some one WBS title or another.

Well if I took someone like say Ricky Hatton who made an awful lot of money that he would never have made in title "defenses" of his WBF bauble. There is no way he would have had the career he had-and there are many cases of fighters being able to fight and win these titles on their home soil. From a British point of view as a comparison Herol Graham never made half the money Chris Eubank did but Graham was a way better fighter imo. Eubank had a "world title" and that was what British TV paid for.

I have no doubt the quality has been badly affected, but take someone like Charley Burley who never got a title shot-someone like him would have won the IBF or WBO and that would have been a launchpad to fight for the main title or make more money defending the bauble.

[Tuan_Jim]

Dempsey's observation about Joe Louis talking down his championship status is spot on. How fighting men have changed. Those two classless louts who contested the WBC title are no more the champion than the six or seven men who presently hold a portion of the WBA belt.

[Broomhall]

There is no positive spin whatsoever to put on the explosion of title belts - unless you are a promoter, a fighter that falls short of genuine championship class, or are one of those weird jingoistic or territorial types who are happy for the illustrious history of championship boxing to be muddied because it means their fellow hometown fighter can be called a 'world champion'.

So you can put a positive spin on from those people then? eg 90% of fighters and for the people who follow them, who are often genuine fight fans and like to see hometown boys make money.

There are plenty of ways world championship boxing has been muddied in the past from colour bars to mafia involvement.

[Tuan_Jim]

I don't want to see 90% of boxers holding titles. I want to see the absolute best in the division holding THE title, and defending against the top contenders. Then we can avoid debacles like Floyd Mayweather and Pacman, Ricky Hatton's bum of the month club, the last 20 years of the heavyweight division and the entirety of the WBO's body of work.

Basically I want it to be like, you know, sport.

[Broomhall]

I don't want to see 90% of boxers holding titles. I want to see the absolute best in the division holding THE title, and defending against the top contenders. Then we can avoid debacles like Floyd Mayweather and Pacman, Ricky Hatton's bum of the month club, the last 20 years of the heavyweight division and the entirety of the WBO's body of work.

Basically I want it to be like, you know, sport.

like it was when the mafia controlled it or when there was a colour bar, or when world class guys like Charley Burley never got a title shot when guys like Pete Rademacher did?

[dempseyfire]

I don't want to see 90% of boxers holding titles. I want to see the absolute best in the division holding THE title, and defending against the top contenders. Then we can avoid debacles like Floyd Mayweather and Pacman, Ricky Hatton's bum of the month club, the last 20 years of the heavyweight division and the entirety of the WBO's body of work.

Basically I want it to be like, you know, sport.

like it was when the mafia controlled it or when there was a colour bar, or when world class guys like Charley Burley never got a title shot when guys like Pete Rademacher did?

The level of influence the mob has is over-played; yes they helped fighters along and controlled certain venues but popular mythology has arisen that it was all corrupt and every fight was fixed etc. Wasn't even close to that. The time period in which they exerted significant control also didn't last very long.

Burley not getting a shot had nothing to do with a color bar.

Rademacher was a media stunt and a huge exception for those times. You really want to compare the quality of world title challengers from now to the late 1950s?

[Broomhall]

No I dont. As I have said from the first post, but you choose not to read that.

I clearly stated the quality cannot be compared to that of today. All I did was point out that many fighters have benefited financially from the current situation.

It is what it is. Things change and they always have done and always will.

Pro fighters risk their health for entertainment. If they can earn more money, well there you go.

[Tuan_Jim]

I don't want to see 90% of boxers holding titles. I want to see the absolute best in the division holding THE title, and defending against the top contenders. Then we can avoid debacles like Floyd Mayweather and Pacman, Ricky Hatton's bum of the month club, the last 20 years of the heavyweight division and the entirety of the WBO's body of work.

Basically I want it to be like, you know, sport.

like it was when the mafia controlled it or when there was a colour bar, or when world class guys like Charley Burley never got a title shot when guys like Pete Rademacher did?

There's a happy medium between the distant days of Blinky Palermo and the present crop of bandits spawning belts like births of rats without scandal or condemnation thanks to an all-time low public interest in the sport.

It's called the 70s.

[sweetsci]

Remember "I coulda been a contender"? We need to get back to the days when being a contender meant something and being World Champion REALLY meant something. If champions and contenders were better defined I think more fans could come to boxing.

Want more belts? I have no problem with regional belts. Let two guys or gals fight for the Boston middleweight championship, the South Dakota lightweight championship, the Yorkshire heavyweight championship, the welterweight championship of Brazil, the European flyweight title, etc. But the existence of lots of WBS "world" title fights distorts boxing and confuses the casual fan.

Re: dempseyfire - "Gone are the days when Joe Louis, after beating Braddock, was asked how he felt being world champion, and he said he wouldn't feel like the champ until beating Max Schmeling . . avenging his only loss!"
I don't have a source I can point to, but I recall Mike Tyson (or his management) saying, after he won a couple of belts, that he wouldn't be the World Heavyweight Champion until he beat Michael Spinks. And I've never read this, but I'm of the opinion that Lennox Lewis "defended" his belt against Shannon Briggs to clear up confusion as to who the real champion was.

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About Joe Bugner...
During the late 70's I remember the boxing mags (in their ratings) listing his then-current home base as Redding, CA. Redding is a small city on I-5 in northern California. I've got friends and family there. There's not much there. Anybody know why Bugner was there?

[Tuan_Jim]

I don't think Lewis or Briggs could clear up who was champ because Holyfield was regarded as The Man, and no one believed Briggs beat Foreman.

[Caractacus]

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About Joe Bugner...
During the late 70's I remember the boxing mags (in their ratings) listing his then-current home base as Redding, CA. Redding is a small city on I-5 in northern California. I've got friends and family there. There's not much there. Anybody know why Bugner was there?

I think he remarried and his new wife was from there.