Tuan_Jim wrote:I don't think Lewis or Briggs could clear up who was champ because Holyfield was regarded as The Man, and no one believed Briggs beat Foreman.
I stubbornly cling to the notion of the lineal champ being the World Heavyweight Champion. Or at least I did until Lewis retired. So I appreciate that Lewis & Briggs fought and that the lineal chain continued for a few more years. In my stubborn view Holyfield the top contender when he fought Lewis.
(And yes, I know this position could be argued forever. And I know that if any champion deserved to be stripped, it was George. And that the decision in favor of Briggs was dubious. And so on... )
About Joe Bugner...
During the late 70's I remember the boxing mags (in their ratings) listing his then-current home base as Redding, CA. Redding is a small city on I-5 in northern California. I've got friends and family there. There's not much there. Anybody know why Bugner was there?
I think he remarried and his new wife was from there.
Now that you mention it, that sounds familiar. Thanks!
Tuan_Jim wrote:There is no positive spin whatsoever to put on the explosion of title belts - unless you are a promoter, a fighter that falls short of genuine championship class, or are one of those weird jingoistic or territorial types who are happy for the illustrious history of championship boxing to be muddied because it means their fellow hometown fighter can be called a 'world champion'.
Agreed. It's horrible, and it's not just purists who think that. Overall, the fighters themselves don't come out ahead financially. Top contenders could make decent money fighting other top contenders and they did. The proliferation of titles has been one of the leading causes of the sport's decline.
Joe Bugner's second wife is Australian, though she was working as a journalist in the US when they met. Bugner was unpopular with the British media after beating Henry Cooper and left Britain in the late-70s, feeling he was getting a raw deal and looking for a new start. After losing to Ron Lyle, Bugner was basically living a playboy lifestyle and supposedly trying to break into films (he did actually do a bit of acting) when he met his wife-to-be, Marlene, at a 'celebrity' party somewhere in California. The couple eventually settled in Australia, I think in the mid-80s. Bugner thereafter began his 'Aussie Joe' trasformation.[/quote]
Im not certain but Joe's unpopularity was perhaps down to a few things; He wasn't born in Britain which was more of an 'issue' then than it is now. He dethroned Britains favourite son Henry Cooper. He was also much criticized for not giving his all and not having that killer instinct. So he adopted the role of the villain and I think it stuck with him and he played the role well at times. ' A legend never Dice!! (dies) '
mercman wrote:Yeah, I think that's right. The press turned on Bugner after he took the title from Cooper but then it gathered pace after he lost it to Jack Bodell after a seriously inept performance. But, yes, being an immigrant didn't help either. Bugner was also a frustrating sort of fighter. Physically he looked the part, and he was skilled and athletic but Bugner always promised more than he delivered. He tended to be quite defensive and I think that generally cheesed people off.
Calling Bugner's caution a lack of a 'killer' instinct is a bit unfortunate though. One of his early opponents, Ulric Regis, died as a result of injuries he received in the ring against Bugner and this, as you might imagine, had serious effect on him. It has often been said that much of Bugner's negativity and general dislike of boxing stemmed from this tragic incident. Bugner was actually a talented track and field athelete in his youth but there was no money in athletics back then and so he turned to boxing purely for the money. He's always said he hated it.
I was aware of the early death. He has previously cited it as a mental block in him, in the same way that Eubank was affected. Only understandable. I felt he was like the Robert Mitchum of boxing; He turned up, done his job, went home and couldn't care less. His heart was rarely in it.
Another factor to consider is how young he was when he fought these guys - The guy had like 30 fights before he was 21!!!!
mercman wrote:Yeah, I think that's right. The press turned on Bugner after he took the title from Cooper but then it gathered pace after he lost it to Jack Bodell after a seriously inept performance. But, yes, being an immigrant didn't help either. Bugner was also a frustrating sort of fighter. Physically he looked the part, and he was skilled and athletic but Bugner always promised more than he delivered. He tended to be quite defensive and I think that generally cheesed people off.
Calling Bugner's caution a lack of a 'killer' instinct is a bit unfortunate though. One of his early opponents, Ulric Regis, died as a result of injuries he received in the ring against Bugner and this, as you might imagine, had serious effect on him. It has often been said that much of Bugner's negativity and general dislike of boxing stemmed from this tragic incident. Bugner was actually a talented track and field athelete in his youth but there was no money in athletics back then and so he turned to boxing purely for the money. He's always said he hated it.
I was aware of the early death. He has previously cited it as a mental block in him, in the same way that Eubank was affected. Only understandable. I felt he was like the Robert Mitchum of boxing; He turned up, done his job, went home and couldn't care less. His heart was rarely in it.
Another factor to consider is how young he was when he fought these guys - The guy had like 30 fights before he was 21!!!!
Just been looking at his record, which reveals some interesting facts and figures. Turned professional at the age of 17, British and European champion at 21, fought Ali and Frazier at 22 and 23 respectively, then Ali again for the world title at 25 before retiring for the first time immediately thereafter. Nowadays most heavyweights haven't even had their debut by the age of 25 never mind done all that!
The Regis fight incidentally was a couple of days before Bugner's 19th birthday so he was a real youngster at the time. He was also back in the ring only a fortnight after the fatal event.
Incredible really - this guy grew up the hard way. I like how he fought Mike Boswell in Houston on 17th Novermber 1971 and fought again in England against non other than Larry Middleton on the 24th Novermber 1971! Incredible. Those days are gone....
mercman wrote:I think Middleton broke Bugner's jaw in that fight, otherwise he would probably been back in action a week later again!
But, seriously, you're right, Joe Bugner was brought up the hard way, that sort of thing wouldn't happen today. Bugner actually says in his autobiography that he wouldn't have had so many fights if he had his time again but I think his manager, Andy Smith, drove him pretty hard back then though. Smith had Bugner under his wing from being a young kid though so maybe he wasn't in the position to see what was happening.
Funny thing is, Bugner's still very much got all his marbles despite all those fights, and going in against all those big hitters including Frazier, Lyle, Shavers and everybody else. Many of his contemporaries are either in a bad way or not with us any more.
Didnt Joe have a heart attack recently? I like his fight with Winston Allen - Winston was a bit naughty with the head but Joe put paid to that with perhaps his best ever knockout!
Shavers was wobbling Bugner with the big punches, that fight was only going one way. Any claim by Joe that the Acorn was fouling him is as credible as his WBF world title belt.
Tuan_Jim wrote:Shavers was wobbling Bugner with the big punches, that fight was only going one way. Any claim by Joe that the Acorn was fouling him is as credible as his WBF world title belt.
Joe actually got decked in the first round with a classic Earnie shavers nut crack ; left glove clasped around the neck and the uppercut comes up - the opponents head is in the middle. Boom
Tuan_Jim wrote:Bugner would claim it was a headbutt that did it! He also claims to be boxing's oldest heavyweight champion!
He does acknowledge Shavers as the hardest puncher he ever met - so Earnie certainly made an impression on him in those two rounds.
I heard him say that about shavers but I have some interview with him from 1982 in the Cooney training camp saying how Gerry was so beyond anything from the past that he had fought in terms of punch power... Not sure if this was before shavers fight...
Tuan_Jim wrote:Bugner would claim it was a headbutt that did it! He also claims to be boxing's oldest heavyweight champion!
He does acknowledge Shavers as the hardest puncher he ever met - so Earnie certainly made an impression on him in those two rounds.
Of yeah, Shavers laid some heavy leather on Bugner, of that there's no doubt. The thing is, Bugner was still stood there firing back however the cut happened, which shows what a good set of whiskers he had. Bugner also absorbed some serious punishment from Ron Lyle but stood there and took his lumps, without fliching. Busted ribs, pissing blood for days after apparently. Tough as old boots, Joe Bugner.
Bugner has always said that the Lyle fight was his hardest, the only time when he asked himself what he was really doing this for. I don't blame him, Lyle was some tough cookie.
These stories about Bugner's good chin makes Frazier's one punch knockdown of Bugner all the more impressive. Frazier could have done some serious damage to Bugner after that hook as Bugner was doing a fantastic, Richard Dunn-like wobble before sinking down, but Smoke sportingly chose to let the opportunity pass.
That's true... Bugner was sitting on the ropes like washing on a line
..a less confident fighter, or a more aggressive Frazier from 1969 might have put the young Scamboogah to sleep for the night. Close fight that. Bugner wobbled Frazier with a peach of a right if I remember. Close decision.
Bugner was past his best when I first started following boxing....but I still loved the way he came back to the UK, playing up the panto villain role he had been given to the absolute full, and turning the fight with Bruno into a very big night of boxing. I was a big Bruno fan but liked Joe's cheekiness...he had a bit about him. Think he turned up at Heathrow with one of those hats with all the corks dangling from it!
I think the Bruno camp took Joe pretty seriously. He was a big old unit with quick hands, some good skills and lots of experience....but I am guessing the lack of a fight-ending bomb and the fact that Joe was carrying a fair bit of timber (and they'd had a good look at him previously) meant they felt everything was always under control.
I reckon a prime Bugner would have been properly tricky for Frank; he actually started the fight fairly well at White Hart Lane and Bruno started trying some rough-housing....getting a bit frustrated/naughty for a short period. But Joe really slowed and started taking lots of jabs and clubbing overhands; towards the end Frank could not miss because Joe was not moving.
I liked the guy and the way he put in a stint and showed some nuts that night seemed to bring a few more people round to his side and lessen some of the ill-feeling towards him. Rightly so I think.
Yet another example of Frank being naughty.... Hitting Bugner while he was slumped on the ropes then pushing him over. I think Bruno could well be the dirtiest fighter of the last 30 years.... Sorry to say that... As I love frank but the more I watch the more I'm seeing a guy that obviously has a confidence problem so resorts to illegal tactics. Made me laugh how the Bruno camp complained of tysons rough house tactics in their first fight when frank pulled out every foul in the book... Especially rabbit punching!!!!
@evrenb...agreed, loved Frank to bits as well, but he was no angel and rabbit punching, hitting on the break and putting in a couple of extra power shots when the guy was going down was (sadly) a fairly big/frequent part of his repertoire.
For sure, Bugner did not get any favours that night and I think he was pretty pissed about taking those bombs when he was basically down and the ropes were stopping him from getting there. Very much a case of an old school pro expecting, but not getting, a fair crack of the whip from his opponent and the third man.
If you've been in with Ali, Frazier and Shavers a bit of respect was due? Result never in doubt after three decent opening rounds; but not FB's finest moment.
Although 1973 featured 2 losses he gave a terrific account of himself against Ali and Frazier... A lot of people don't realise that Bugner was sent over to America to spar all the tough USA fighters at a very young age...He really learnt his craft... And coming from an impoverished, immigrant background... With a tough mother he in turn grew up tough... That's why fighters of that era were so great... Hunger...I knew all about that growing up....
Joe Bugner was always kind of an enigma to me he appeared to possess the frame and the boxing skills necessary to win the World Heavyweight championship but lacking the determination to carry himself out of top contender mode and into the World Champion Strata.
Having had the opportunity to review previous film of him in action during his first career against boxers both possessing small frames such as Henry Cooper 3-16-1971 W15, Jimmy Ellis 11-12-1974 W10, Joe Frazier 7-2-1973 L12 (Small but wide Frame) and Larger Boxers such as Muhammad Ali 2-14-1973 L12 and 6-30-1975 L15, Ron Lyle 3-20-1977 LSD15, Jack O'Halloran 4-15-1969 W8, Manuel Ramos 3-24-1970 W8 I come out of my observation feeling like Bugner had more trouble with the smaller heavyweights. Perhaps it was the concept of punching down at his smaller opponent as opposed to throwing eye level that could have made the smaller opponents more troubling for Bugner, the taller and Wider framed fighters sans Ali were right in front of him most of the time as the films illustrate. It would seem that only 2 fighters ever really hurt him 1)Paul Brown who stopped him in the 3rd Round of their first fight Bugner's Pro Debut and 2)Joe Frazier who Dropped Bugner in their July 1973 Fight. I am not observing Joe's comeback as I am aware he was dropped by Ernie Shavers and perhaps other fighters at the time, however I am not really interested in that period of his career.
Like I said earlier, to me he is an enigma that appeared to have all tools to be a Heavyweight Champion even though he campaigned during arguably the greatest era of heavyweights in history.
Mikey Capp
mikeycapp wrote:Joe Bugner was always kind of an enigma to me he appeared to possess the frame and the boxing skills necessary to win the World Heavyweight championship but lacking the determination to carry himself out of top contender mode and into the World Champion Strata.
Having had the opportunity to review previous film of him in action during his first career against boxers both possessing small frames such as Henry Cooper 3-16-1971 W15, Jimmy Ellis 11-12-1974 W10, Joe Frazier 7-2-1973 L12 (Small but wide Frame) and Larger Boxers such as Muhammad Ali 2-14-1973 L12 and 6-30-1975 L15, Ron Lyle 3-20-1977 LSD15, Jack O'Halloran 4-15-1969 W8, Manuel Ramos 3-24-1970 W8 I come out of my observation feeling like Bugner had more trouble with the smaller heavyweights. Perhaps it was the concept of punching down at his smaller opponent as opposed to throwing eye level that could have made the smaller opponents more troubling for Bugner, the taller and Wider framed fighters sans Ali were right in front of him most of the time as the films illustrate. It would seem that only 2 fighters ever really hurt him 1)Paul Brown who stopped him in the 3rd Round of their first fight Bugner's Pro Debut and 2)Joe Frazier who Dropped Bugner in their July 1973 Fight. I am not observing Joe's comeback as I am aware he was dropped by Ernie Shavers and perhaps other fighters at the time, however I am not really interested in that period of his career.
Like I said earlier, to me he is an enigma that appeared to have all tools to be a Heavyweight Champion even though he campaigned during arguably the greatest era of heavyweights in history.
Mikey Capp
Hi Mikey
Didn't Jack Bodell put Joe on the floor? I seem to recall I watched this last year and remember Joe really hurt. . . Perhaps Joe's worst night as a professional aside from the Scott Welch debacle.
Wow, I haven't seen Welch/Bugner since the night it happened. I think it was the German wing of the Tyson/Bruno II PPV. Bugner was 46, which was probably why Welch had to fight him in Germany. The BBBoC are quite stringent about these things, the Germans less so. Like when Bonecrusher failed a brainscan that thwarted a London fight with Henry Akinwande. He popped up in Germany a couple of weeks later to box Axel Schulz instead!
Mikey, great post. Have you seen Joe Bugner vs Jimmy Ellis? I never knew the tape existed. I would love to see it one day.
Tuan_Jim wrote:Wow, I haven't seen Welch/Bugner since the night it happened. I think it was the German wing of the Tyson/Bruno II PPV. Bugner was 46, which was probably why Welch had to fight him in Germany. The BBBoC are quite stringent about these things, the Germans less so. Like when Bonecrusher failed a brainscan that thwarted a London fight with Henry Akinwande. He popped up in Germany a couple of weeks later to box Axel Schulz instead!
Mikey, great post. Have you seen Joe Bugner vs Jimmy Ellis? I never knew the tape existed. I would love to see it one day.
A legend never dies!!!!
Bugners words during every promotional event / interview. A legend never dice!!!
Thank you for the reply, I would really need to go back and look at the fight to recall what you have brought to my attention namely the knockdown by Bodell of Bugner.
I am confident your observation is fair and Bugner was knocked down I missed that!
I do think Bugner was capable of giving any top heavyweight a hard nights work if his mind was in the right place. He may well also have been one of those fighters who are world class in sparring as they dont have the same inhibitions in sparring. I have seen many guys in sparring look really really good, but just cannot free the mind up under the pressure of competition.
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