Jermain Taylor sent to mental hospital

[Perseus]

JT is a loonnnggggg way from being same criminal that Ike or Etienne were.

I would say Ike is long way from being the same as Etienne. What Etienne did was armed robbery, kidnapping and attempted murder.

On the other hand, Ike had documented history of "mental incidents" long before the final arrest... and while it is obvious he should be taken care of (and isolated until the issue is solved), I doubt if ~20 years sentence was the best solution.

Prison isn't a place for finding a solution to his problem it's a punishment for his crimes and a measure of justice for the victims.
The victims aren't people close to your life though so no concern for them.

Starting to get a lot of posts on this thread about convicted criminals and accused criminals and not one about what would help the victims or represent justice for them just excuses to keep the criminal out of a bad place.

[SenorPipino]

JT is a loonnnggggg way from being same criminal that Ike or Etienne were.

I would say Ike is long way from being the same as Etienne. What Etienne did was armed robbery, kidnapping and attempted murder.

On the other hand, Ike had documented history of "mental incidents" long before the final arrest... and while it is obvious he should be taken care of (and isolated until the issue is solved), I doubt if ~20 years sentence was the best solution.

Prison isn't a place for finding a solution to his problem it's a punishment for his crimes and a measure of justice for the victims.
The victims aren't people close to your life though so no concern for them.

Starting to get a lot of posts on this thread about convicted criminals and accused criminals and not one about what would help the victims or represent justice for them just excuses to keep the criminal out of a bad place.

[gregor]

Starting to get a lot of posts on this thread about convicted criminals and accused criminals and not one about what would help the victims or represent justice for them just excuses to keep the criminal out of a bad place.

I was just talking about one specific case... no need to overstretch it to some general "convicted and accused criminals". And I still think Ike was more of a mental case that criminal as he has been diagnosed with some disorders (bipolar I think). It took quite a long time for lawyers/doctors to decide whether or not he is competent enough to stand a trial (Ike "won" that one by split decision)... and even the judge allowed to force-medicate him.

[matador]

Prison isn't a place for finding a solution to his problem it's a punishment for his crimes and a measure of justice for the victims.
The victims aren't people close to your life though so no concern for them.

Starting to get a lot of posts on this thread about convicted criminals and accused criminals and not one about what would help the victims or represent justice for them just excuses to keep the criminal out of a bad place.

You said it much better than I did.

Too many people want to blame their shortcomings on everyone and everything but themselves. Unfortunately, money and/or fame in this country can buy you a get out of jail free card. This includes scumbag celebs like Mark Wahlberg and R. Kelly to random people like that spoiled kid who killed innocent people while driving drunk and got a pass because he suffered from "affluenza". If taking to many blows to the head exempts you from crimes, where do we draw the line? Growing up poor, going to a bad school, having bad parents, suffering from a medical condition, growing up with so called "affluenza"? The fact is, we all are hit with adversities in life and it is our job to overcome them and strive to better ourselves.

[Perseus]

Starting to get a lot of posts on this thread about convicted criminals and accused criminals and not one about what would help the victims or represent justice for them just excuses to keep the criminal out of a bad place.

I was just talking about one specific case... no need to overstretch it to some general "convicted and accused criminals". And I still think Ike was more of a mental case that criminal as he has been diagnosed with some disorders (bipolar I think). It took quite a long time for lawyers/doctors to decide whether or not he is competent enough to stand a trial (Ike "won" that one by split decision)... and even the judge allowed to force-medicate him.

Once again your response shows ZERO concern for the victims just excuses for the criminal

How long it took to decide he was fit for trial is irrelevant.
You hire defense lawyers to keep you out of prison by any legal means possible. Part of the process was trying like hell to convince somebody/anybody that Ike was unfit to stand trial.
That takes time, they drug it out as long as they could and were still unsuccessful.

[birdman77]

I retract previous comments. Didn't realize stunt he pulled at MLK parade. That's f#cked up bad! He needs jail time

[BAD INTENTIONS]

Some people show the effects of brain damage sooner than others. When the effects start when you are still young, it can be pretty bad like this. Taylor's suddenly aggressive behavior/shift in attitude sound like the things former NFL player describe. Taylor seemed to increase his bad decision output after his first retirement when it was known that he had suffered some serious brian damage.

We really need to take another look at the violent crimes fighters commit outside the ring. Yes, they are from the hood and probably have a criminal past, but their brains are not working properly. So instead of being able to ignore certain things like they naturally would, they go down the first path their brain locks into.

However, as people who cheered while this damage was being inflicted, we tend to act like they are in full control and just made bad decisions.
It's easier to blame other than blame yourself

If we're going to start to look at biological reasons for violent behaviour and look toward treatment rather than punishment should it be kept only for ex boxers and ex football players or should it be done across the spectrum?

Duh ... do you think I only care about athletes?

R=The punishment of crime and violence needs another look ... but the solutions might be contrary to the entire American way of life, so it's whatever.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Sadly, boxers are often drawn from the underclass, and are not guys with the solid framework to deal with their own gifts, the fame, and positions they end up in. Taylor always seemed like a decent guy, I do wonder if he isn't suffering from brain damage, but like I think Bowe was after the batterings he took before he went a bit mental.

It's part of the reason I always respected Lennox Lewis - not everyone's cup of tea, but he at least brought a little dignity to the world heavyweight mantle.

What is certain, is that Taylor really shouldn't be fighting any more, - he's badly damaged goods.

Interesting case, Ike Ibeabuchi, apparently after his absolute war with Tua, started hearing voices and hallucinating - maybe he was always mad, - and maybe he sustained some serious brain damage.

Interesting story - Henry VIII - was apparently, by all accounts, as a young man, a lively, virulent, learned, accommodating and kind man - he used to appear at jousting tournaments in disguise, because as monarch, he was not meant to put his life at risk.

At one tournament, he appears in disguise, and was hit in the head, and knocked from his horse, and was unconscious for almost an hour, they feared he was dead. All the accounts show that after this time, he underwent a serious personality change, and became a different person, they speculate now, that he sustained a serious brain trauma, that cause personality shift and disorder.

Let's face it, getting punched in the head, ain't good for your brain.

[jamesmcdonnell]

The problem with this country is that we give criminals too much benefit of the doubt. Bottom line is Taylor has committed several violent acts that have endangered the lives of several people. He belongs in a correctional facility, period. There's a risk/reward factor in choosing boxing as a career and using brain damage as a cop out to committing crimes is bullshit. Using that logic, Ike Ibeabuchi, Tony Ayala, Cliff Etienne, Harry Simon, and many others should've been spared as well.

Seriously, are you from the U.S? You have the biggest prison population by percentage of anywhere in the world!

[sucracristo]

Seriously, are you from the U.S? You have the biggest prison population by percentage of anywhere in the world!

99% of north koreans are living in a prison, and nobody can trust the prison stats of any totalitarian regime.
as far as the people in jail in the usa, almost all would be in jail in canada or uk for doing the same stuff.
i would say we probably have more people walking the streets here that would be normally be imprisoned
in other countries. we have neighborhhods here that would scare the living crap out of your average canadian
or brit. i know there are tough neighborhoods everywhere, but it's all relative. it mostly comes down to the
complete obliteration of the family nucleus (mommy+daddy raising kids) in specific areas, but about 20 million
illegal immigrants doesn't help. i would say that accounts for 90% of the incarcerated

[BAD INTENTIONS]

I think a bunch of you have justice and revenge mixed up.

[sucracristo]

I think a bunch of you have justice and revenge mixed up.

as opposed to justice and "social justice"

[gregor]

Once again your response shows ZERO concern for the victims just excuses for the criminal

OK. I admit I do not see how the situation of victims was improved by the fact that Ike went to jail instead of mental hospital.

And, while I agree claiming insanity may be just a legal trick to keep someone out of jail, I hope you realize it also may be true sometimes?

[BAD INTENTIONS]

Once again your response shows ZERO concern for the victims just excuses for the criminal

OK. I admit I do not see how the situation of victims was improved by the fact that Ike went to jail instead of mental hospital.

And, while I agree claiming insanity may be just a legal trick to keep someone out of jail, I hope you realize it also may be true sometimes?

In the US, punishment is all about revenge.

Instead of looking at how a crime affects society, the first thing we are trained to think is "what if it was you"? This creates an extremely unintellectual view of crime, as the first and only reaction is pure emotion. The only thought is a personalized anger on the behalf of the victim ... so we ship the highest percentage of our citizens to jails.

Then, when they are in jails, we are trained to get upset when they are given anything near a decent standard of living. WE HAVE EVEN CREATED A WELL-QUOTED LIE THAT PEOPLE IN PRISON GET FANCY MEALS AND LIVING ARRANGEMENTS. Actually, the significant percentage of people in jail are living in shitty conditions. However, we are also trained to believe that everyone in jail is bad, and that they deserve harsh treatment ... it's "good for them" for not following the fair and just rules of the United States of America.

So, this leads to jail being a horrible place we send angry people. So guess what? They leave jail even more angry and messed up than when they came in. So they commit another crime , we want revenge, they go to jail again, and thus the cycle.

We all KNOW this is what's going on. However, we refuse to try anything different.

This is what it's like living in America. How's the Netherlands?

[BAD INTENTIONS]

The problem with this country is that we give criminals too much benefit of the doubt. Bottom line is Taylor has committed several violent acts that have endangered the lives of several people. He belongs in a correctional facility, period. There's a risk/reward factor in choosing boxing as a career and using brain damage as a cop out to committing crimes is bullshit. Using that logic, Ike Ibeabuchi, Tony Ayala, Cliff Etienne, Harry Simon, and many others should've been spared as well.

Did you know that the brain is the thing that controls the body?

[gregor]

I see I did not update the profile for quite a time... no longer in the Netherlands.

Anyway, about the time I was leaving they were closing some prisons due to lack of criminals (and also because they switched to use electronic tagging instead for some crimes). I guess the stress was more on preventing/deterring the crime than on severe punishment afterwards... and while it was not ideal, it seemed to be working (well, if you do not count bike stealing plague ...but they had even logical explanation for it )

[Perseus]

Once again your response shows ZERO concern for the victims just excuses for the criminal

OK. I admit I do not see how the situation of victims was improved by the fact that Ike went to jail instead of mental hospital.

And, while I agree claiming insanity may be just a legal trick to keep someone out of jail, I hope you realize it also may be true sometimes?

You don't get the concept of punishment for crimes?
Justice for victims?

Insanity can sometimes be true.
I'm not naive enough to think anyone who is mentally fit enough to follow rules in a prize fighting ring is not mentally fit enough to be held accountable for breaking rules once outside of that ring.
I have thought Taylor should not even be allowed in the ring since after the Abraham fight but I have watched him repeatedly get in there and follow the rules.
We're talking about a felony here but what if it was something less?
If he were pulled over driving 75mph in a 55mph zone should he not get a ticket?
Or are the excuses reserved to keep him from going to a bad place when he does something worse?

[Perseus]

Once again your response shows ZERO concern for the victims just excuses for the criminal

OK. I admit I do not see how the situation of victims was improved by the fact that Ike went to jail instead of mental hospital.

And, while I agree claiming insanity may be just a legal trick to keep someone out of jail, I hope you realize it also may be true sometimes?

In the US, punishment is all about revenge.

Instead of looking at how a crime affects society, the first thing we are trained to think is "what if it was you"? This creates an extremely unintellectual view of crime, as the first and only reaction is pure emotion. The only thought is a personalized anger on the behalf of the victim ... so we ship the highest percentage of our citizens to jails.

Then, when they are in jails, we are trained to get upset when they are given anything near a decent standard of living. WE HAVE EVEN CREATED A WELL-QUOTED LIE THAT PEOPLE IN PRISON GET FANCY MEALS AND LIVING ARRANGEMENTS. Actually, the significant percentage of people in jail are living in shitty conditions. However, we are also trained to believe that everyone in jail is bad, and that they deserve harsh treatment ... it's "good for them" for not following the fair and just rules of the United States of America.

So, this leads to jail being a horrible place we send angry people. So guess what? They leave jail even more angry and messed up than when they came in. So they commit another crime , we want revenge, they go to jail again, and thus the cycle.

We all KNOW this is what's going on. However, we refuse to try anything different.

This is what it's like living in America. How's the Netherlands?

This post is just stupid.

Explain Bernard Hopkins.
Sent to prison as a young man for violent crimes, never returns.
How is that possible in your America?
Probably had something to do with actually accepting responsibility for his situation vs blaming the system and society(also a real fear of returning after being released).

Like it or not prison is not a nice place by design.
It's supposed to be a place people fear being sent or will fear being sent back to if they were ever there.
"Anger" is not a reason for more crimes. It's just another lame excuse to lay responsibility on anyone other than the criminal.
Your posts show a lot of anger but I'm willing to bet you've never let your anger land you in jail.
You sure do have a long list of excuses for crime though.

An ex-con doesn't need to be perfect upon release they just need to stop being a menace to society. That's it. They can be a completely useless douche-bag and a burden to society and that is still better than being a menace. Nobody expects ex-cons to be cured of all problems or go on to be President or whatever.
Punishment for previous crimes, cease being a menace to society then move forward from there like Hopkins did and plenty of others have done.

[gregor]

You don't get the concept of punishment for crimes?

For crimes - OK. It worked well for Hopkins... who was really criminal and sane though. But punishment for being insane is different thing.

I'm not naive enough to think anyone who is mentally fit enough to follow rules in a prize fighting ring is not mentally fit enough to be held accountable for breaking rules once outside of that ring.

Actually, Ike had some mental issues long before his arrest. Also inside the ring, when he choked his sparring partner apologizing for accidental cut. There was also a story of Ike driving a car (with another passenger inside) against a wall at considerable speed. That is why I believe that his case was more mental than criminal.

[chucktaylor]

Once again your response shows ZERO concern for the victims just excuses for the criminal

OK. I admit I do not see how the situation of victims was improved by the fact that Ike went to jail instead of mental hospital.

And, while I agree claiming insanity may be just a legal trick to keep someone out of jail, I hope you realize it also may be true sometimes?

You don't get the concept of punishment for crimes?
Justice for victims?

Insanity can sometimes be true.
I'm not naive enough to think anyone who is mentally fit enough to follow rules in a prize fighting ring is not mentally fit enough to be held accountable for breaking rules once outside of that ring.
I have thought Taylor should not even be allowed in the ring since after the Abraham fight but I have watched him repeatedly get in there and follow the rules.
We're talking about a felony here but what if it was something less?
If he were pulled over driving 75mph in a 55mph zone should he not get a ticket?
Or are the excuses reserved to keep him from going to a bad place when he does something worse?

Yes, probably. Bad example. Cops give out way too many chicken sh*t tickets to taxpaying commuters and speed limits on our highways are generally too low. Idk about Arkansas highway patrol, but fvck the CHP. They are more a coercive fundraising organization than police.

[Evander]

Jermain should stop smoking weed and get it together.

[Perseus]

You don't get the concept of punishment for crimes?

For crimes - OK. It worked well for Hopkins... who was really criminal and sane though. But punishment for being insane is different thing.

I'm not naive enough to think anyone who is mentally fit enough to follow rules in a prize fighting ring is not mentally fit enough to be held accountable for breaking rules once outside of that ring.

Actually, Ike had some mental issues long before his arrest. Also inside the ring, when he choked his sparring partner apologizing for accidental cut. There was also a story of Ike driving a car (with another passenger inside) against a wall at considerable speed. That is why I believe that his case was more mental than criminal.

Ike was punished for his crimes not being insane. His attorneys best efforts couldn't convince the system he was not mentally well enough to be held accountable.
A menace to society?
Yeah, that part is indisputable but it doesn't make him insane anymore than it made the young Hopkins insane.

Plus we don't yet know how it worked out for Ike. He apparently has had no issues in prison and even completed a college degree.
I'm not going to predict great things for him but if it turns out that he is no longer a menace to society then the system worked.

[palooka]

Yes, probably. Bad example. Cops give out way too many chicken sh*t tickets to taxpaying commuters and speed limits on our highways are generally too low. Idk about Arkansas highway patrol, but fvck the CHP. They are more a coercive fundraising organization than police.[/quote]

You don't want to buy Erik Estrada's autograph do you, Chuck?

[SenorPipino]

Yes, probably. Bad example. Cops give out way too many chicken sh*t tickets to taxpaying commuters and speed limits on our highways are generally too low. Idk about Arkansas highway patrol, but fvck the CHP. They are more a coercive fundraising organization than police.

Gee, I don't know Palooka. In 40 + years of traversing California highways, I've never once been stopped by the CHP.
You think that maybe the so-called chicken sh*t tickets you and others have received might actually be DESERVED???

Just because you're a (yawn) taxpaying commuter, doesn't mean that you can flaunt protective laws and receive immunity on the roads from tickets.

The speed limits (65) are fine. I don't need some immature pendejo barreling freely down the highway at 80 + MPH. Leave that type of behavior to 14 year old boys playing video games.

[chucktaylor]

Yes, probably. Bad example. Cops give out way too many chicken sh*t tickets to taxpaying commuters and speed limits on our highways are generally too low. Idk about Arkansas highway patrol, but fvck the CHP. They are more a coercive fundraising organization than police.

Gee, I don't know Palooka. In 40 + years of traversing California highways, I've never once been stopped by the CHP.
You think that maybe the so-called chicken sh*t tickets you and others have received might actually be DESERVED???

Just because you're a (yawn) taxpaying commuter, doesn't mean that you can flaunt protective laws and receive immunity on the roads from tickets.

The speed limits (65) are fine. I don't need some immature pendejo barreling freely down the highway at 80 + MPH. Leave that type of behavior to 14 year old boys playing video games.

I've only been stopped once for speeding in my life b/c I know how to drive around quickly/efficiently without drawing a lot of attention, but I always see these guys parked with radar guns trying to bust people. The worst is when they are actually hiding from motorists behind some bushes or up a driveway trying to squeeze some more $ from the already overtaxed and scared people of LA. Did these guys really get into law enforcement to HIDE?! Did they see some movie about Clint Eastwood or Steve McQueen HIDING with a radar gun? Cops should stop people who are driving like sh*t, not those simply getting where they're going efficiently.
And if you can't handle 80 on a freeway, you're a piss poor driver (or you're in an 80's Nova or some similar non-roadworthy sh*tbox).