Was Witherspoon ever better than against Holmes?

[SamWise72]

I'm just watching Witherspoon vs Holmes. and reflecting on the Witherspoon I was familiar with a few years later. Here's a guy outjabbing Holmes, but who got outboxed by Pinklon Thomas? (admittedly I think Thomas was potentially better than his final record) He also got outboxed by Bruno, and needed a desperation haymaker. Did the Holmes fight represent his peak? Do you see his career panning out differently if he got the decision he probably deserved against Holmes?

[Ezzard]

Pinklon was possibly his equal but he too sort of wasted his potential.

I’m not sure Tim was being out-boxed by Frank. Tim liked to take his time and wait for his moment which is why he was a nightmare opponent for Frank.

The Holmes fight probably was his best night.

[SamWise72]

I loved Thomas. I was watching his fight with Weaver yesterday, and his head movement and jab were excellent when he chose to use them. Frank was well up on points in my view, and I can't see that being the case against the (almost 20lb lighter) Spoon who fought Holmes. Against Frank he didn't show the mobility, he wasn't active with his jab; I agree, he tended to wait for the big overhand right when he had people in the deep water, but the Spoon who fought Holmes didn't need to do that, he had so much to his game.

[drunkenpiper36]

I haven't seen every fight of Witherspoon's, but I've seen a good handful of them and ones that were from various stages in his career. Frankly I don't think he was ever again in ideal condition nor showed as much tenacity after the Holmes fight. He was more experienced in some of his future bouts, but without the motivation and the conditioning to back it up, experience only goes so far.

[Syntax Error]

Witherspoon was a tremendous fighter when he wanted to be.

He probably did peak against Holmes, which is a shame as he didn't win.

Losing to an on-form Pinklon Thomas isn't too much to be ashamed of either.

Thomas had one of the most underrated jabs in history & like Holmes, he could control a fight with it.

Reading through this just highlights what could have been in the 80s if the main HWs of the day hadn't snorted or eaten away their talents.

[Tuan_Jim]

Pick up Jack Newfield's 'Don King: Only in America', read the chapter 'Tim Witherspoon & the Lost Generation', and never doubt Tim Witherspoon again.

Timmy was doomed from the day he exhibited natural talent. Most people would have done much worse than Witherspoon, given what he was up against. Fancy doing a day's arduous work when Don King takes 50% of your wage and his son, your negotiator, also takes 50%? Don't like it? Oh, now you're blackballed from your industry. Go wash dishes.

For the record, he was splendid in '96 vs Cole, Gonzalez and Mercer.

[Ambling Alp II]

I have that book; it is pretty interesting. Has a lot of behind the scenes information regarding King and the lives he ruined.

As for Witherspoon, he fought for a long time and was (like the other alphabet champs of the era) very inconsistent. He did have other performances that were arguably as good as the Holmes fight.

He looked pretty good against Page and in the first Smith fight. He also stopped blew out Tillis and Broad early. Even though he lost to Thomas, he fought a pretty good fight.

[witherspoon]

I watched a brilliant interview on Sky Sports, Johnny Nelson interviewing Witherspoon, part of a series where presenters and sporting celebrities get to interview their personal 'sporting hero'.
(Ellory Hanley interviewed Frank Bruno, I thought that would be interesting but I didn't get past 5 minutes. Ok for the layman, I guess)
I don't want to spoil, but I was surprised at some of what Tim had to say about the whole relationship with Don King.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGabaLZ8T-I

[drunkenpiper36]

Pick up Jack Newfield's 'Don King: Only in America', read the chapter 'Tim Witherspoon & the Lost Generation', and never doubt Tim Witherspoon again.

Timmy was doomed from the day he exhibited natural talent. Most people would have done much worse than Witherspoon, given what he was up against. Fancy doing a day's arduous work when Don King takes 50% of your wage and his son, your negotiator, also takes 50%? Don't like it? Oh, now you're blackballed from your industry. Go wash dishes.

For the record, he was splendid in '96 vs Cole, Gonzalez and Mercer.

There was a documentary on him about 20 years ago which aired on regular television. I remember him saying that he only got like 90 grand from the Frank Bruno fight despite being the defending WBA title holder. Bruno apparently got something like 500 grand.

[Tuan_Jim]

Bruno got a million pounds from his team! Micky Duff doing his job and negotiating the best deal for his man.

Meanwhile yes, Carl King contrived to reduce a million purse to less than 100K for the reigning champ. Newfield includes in his book the complete list of Don King deductions from Spoon's purse. . . . The man's cold, dark larceny is shameless!

[drunkenpiper36]

Bruno got a million pounds from his team! Micky Duff doing his job and negotiating the best deal for his man.

Meanwhile yes, Carl King contrived to reduce a million purse to less than 100K for the reigning champ. Newfield includes in his book the complete list of Don King deductions from Spoon's purse. . . . The man's cold, dark larceny is shameless!

It really is no wonder why Tim appeared unmotivated for some of his fights. Working for "free" will do that to most people.

[dempseyfire]

I'm just watching Witherspoon vs Holmes. and reflecting on the Witherspoon I was familiar with a few years later. Here's a guy outjabbing Holmes, but who got outboxed by Pinklon Thomas? (admittedly I think Thomas was potentially better than his final record) He also got outboxed by Bruno, and needed a desperation haymaker. Did the Holmes fight represent his peak? Do you see his career panning out differently if he got the decision he probably deserved against Holmes?

I would definitely say yes. Witherspoon peaked very early in his career; partially due to his issues with weight. Vs Bruno, Tubbs etc. he was a slower, more grind you down fighter than the polished boxer-puncher who fought Larry.

That and the first fight with Bonecrusher Smith were his career highlights.

[SamWise72]

Pick up Jack Newfield's 'Don King: Only in America', read the chapter 'Tim Witherspoon & the Lost Generation', and never doubt Tim Witherspoon again.

Timmy was doomed from the day he exhibited natural talent. Most people would have done much worse than Witherspoon, given what he was up against. Fancy doing a day's arduous work when Don King takes 50% of your wage and his son, your negotiator, also takes 50%? Don't like it? Oh, now you're blackballed from your industry. Go wash dishes.

For the record, he was splendid in '96 vs Cole, Gonzalez and Mercer.

Funnily enough, Jim, it was reading exactly that chapter in that book that inspired me to watch these fights. It certainly puts a different pallor on the Lost Generation; I knew King ripped them off, but I didn't know how badly, and because of the age I was when I started watching fights, it felt like the norm. I don't mean any judgement on Spoon, I just wondered if he ever regained the magnificent form he showed against Larry. I've seen a few of his fights through the years, but by no means all.

[Ambling Alp II]

He had a few fights (including the Holmes fight) where he was borderline great. He had a few where was very good. He had a few where he was solid. He also had some where he was mediocre or worse. Like many of his rivals from the era, he was all over the map.

Drugs, lack of training, lack of motivation were various reasons why this happened with so many of these guys.

[tiny_acres]

He had a few fights (including the Holmes fight) where he was borderline great. He had a few where was very good. He had a few where he was solid. He also had some where he was mediocre or worse. Like many of his rivals from the era, he was all over the map.

Drugs, lack of training, lack of motivation were various reasons why this happened with so many of these guys.

I know it gets said a lot around here about different fighters .But IF Witherspoon was focused he could of been great.
He was something to watch when trained and focused