Refs jumping in too early

[Jeff Thomas]

Sorry to make a new topic but I don't want this to be specifically about Brian and Ian john Lewis - I'm after an example of when a fighter has suffered an injury from a fight being stopped to late in the early rounds.

People are quick to say 'well better two punches to soon then 2 punches too late'

Further then this can anyone give me an example of a fighter who was badly in trouble in the early rounds and Jen got stopped late and was injured?

[crusader]

People are quick to say 'well better two punches to soon then 2 punches too late'

No kidding. The 'what if so and so ended up being badly hurt' logic is used far too much and going by it we might well stop every fight at the first sign that someone is remotely bothered, because hey, maybe they'd get badly injured if the fight continued.

[Coco]

While of course nobody wants to see folk hurt, this is professional boxing, you get paid, so it is fair that the ref stops the fight one punch too late than too early.
Fair enough in the amateurs but careers and livelihoods get ruined like this.

[Stuarty]

The referee has to be allowed to use his own discretion and instinct. It's a hard job the guys have and in boxing unfortunately it only takes one punch or bad landing to change a fighters life forever or worse. The refs to an extent are responsible for the fighters safety and in some cases have to make decisions in the blink of an eye. If we are watching on telly we have the luxury of being relaxed on our sofa and seeing the action from different camera angles. We all want to see fair fights with a definitive outcome but it's human error. It happens in every walk of life. We've all sat and watched fights where a guy is taking so much of a tanking we are uncomfortable watching it and we have all probably lost count of all the premature stoppages we've seen. It's a thankless task the refs have.

[jonp]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Bwalya

[jonp]

Should this one have been stopped straight away ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankie_Campbell

Was the damage already done and the next three rounds didnt matter anyway?

[Boxerbeetle]

I read a good post on CS the other day (yes, I was amazed as well ) saying we'd have a far better idea of whether the stoppage was premature or not if the ref was miked up - if the referee is asking questions which the fighter doesn't respond to, there's a much stronger case for the stoppage being correct. There's no real excuse for referees not being miked up during a televised show (not just in boxing, but any sport imo).

Anyone have any strong feelings about introducing standing 8 counts? I'm not a fan personally, but I'm starting to think I'd rather see it introduced than keep seeing premature stoppages.

[Old bones Ian]

Joey Gamache got damaged from being KO'd by Gatti in the 2nd

[Datsue]

Anyone have any strong feelings about introducing standing 8 counts? I'm not a fan personally, but I'm starting to think I'd rather see it introduced than keep seeing premature stoppages.

The sort of people who rage about a "premature stoppage" are the sort who'd rage about a standing eight count: the moment one was given they'd be all over it going "FFS he could've finished him!!! He was allowed to survive 'cos of the standing eight111!!!ELEVEN!!11!!! SACK THE REF!!111! THIS IS BOXING!!!11!"

imo.

I think they're a good idea, meself.

[Datsue]

Joey Gamache got damaged from being KO'd by Gatti in the 2nd

Hospitalised for a week, never fought again.

[Jeff Thomas]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Bwalya

Hi Jon,

Felix Bwala was stopped late - he was also paraded around the ring in a semi comatose state having being declared the winner at the conclusion of his bizarre bout with Paul Burke. Very sad but that doesn't really fit.

[Jeff Thomas]

Joey Gamache got damaged from being KO'd by Gatti in the 2nd

yes this was the one I could think of too- he couldn't really have being stopped any earlier. Ganache was injured but I believe he had an issue with the weight disparity and was trying to sue the commission. Could be a case that he was making more of it car whiplash style?? Would he have fought again anyway?? It was a brutal knockout and he was already a long way from his glory days? What an opportune way to financially secure himself without fighting?

[Jeff Thomas]

I watch a lot of MMA and you see guy knocked out on the floor taking punches and they aren't further injured. Their careers aren't ended. It's always unedyfing to see a boxer poleaxed but it astonishes me these referees are so 50/50 about it. These big fights need to be allowed to conclude properly - that might sound heartless but as a boxer you want every chance.

[Sklar]

Jeff, Brian is your mate so I understand that you're niggled by this one. Under the rules we have IJL was right to stop the fight. If Brian was at all with it and switched on he'd have taken a knee or grabbed hold of Jones, he did neither of those things and looked like punctured dinghy being dropped off the top of the tower. Bringing in standing eights is the solution, until that's done I'm not going to get too up in arms when a referee waves off a fight in situations like on Saturday.

[Datsue]

Jeff, Brian is your mate so I understand that you're niggled by this one. Under the rules we have IJL was right to stop the fight. If Brian was at all with it and switched on he'd have taken a knee or grabbed hold of Jones, he did neither of those things and looked like punctured dinghy being dropped off the top of the tower. Bringing in standing eights is the solution, until that's done I'm not going to get too up in arms when a referee waves off a fight in situations like on Saturday.

[Datsue]

Standing eight counts and allowing refs to explain decisions would curb a lot of problems. Fair weight-making would also eliminate a lot of dangers, given that fighters regularly add a lot of weight and, in some cases, are a division bigger than their opponent come fight night.

[Sklar]

Standing eight counts and allowing refs to explain decisions would curb a lot of problems. Fair weight-making would also eliminate a lot of dangers, given that fighters regularly add a lot of weight and, in some cases, are a division bigger than their opponent come fight night.

Yep. If the standing eight was an option there's no way on earth IJL would've stopped that fight at the point he did. He'd have used the eight. Refereeing boxing is not easy, they're damned if they do damned if they don't, with that extra few moments to help the make a decision, things would work a lot better.

How would you make weight making more fair?

[Jeff Thomas]

Jeff, Brian is your mate so I understand that you're niggled by this one. Under the rules we have IJL was right to stop the fight. If Brian was at all with it and switched on he'd have taken a knee or grabbed hold of Jones, he did neither of those things and looked like punctured dinghy being dropped off the top of the tower. Bringing in standing eights is the solution, until that's done I'm not going to get too up in arms when a referee waves off a fight in situations like on Saturday.

It's not just Brian and Ian john Lewis I'm talking about mate - Howard foster and groves, Enzo and Ovil 1. It's frustrating that these fights are ruined by poor decision making.

I like Ian John lewis- a lovely man and a talented, brave fighter back in the day but he has made a poor call. The fight had not reached a conclusive point and he's ended the fight. Why?? Probably because he's a nice caring human who has a great deal of compassion for fellow fighters - does that make it any more tolerable ? No.

Fights need to be let go longer. It's almost crazy that these premature stoppages happen so frequenly yet there are hardly any big punchers in the UK anymore - at least statistically?? Where have all the punchers gone?

[Jeff Thomas]

Standing eight counts and allowing refs to explain decisions would curb a lot of problems. Fair weight-making would also eliminate a lot of dangers, given that fighters regularly add a lot of weight and, in some cases, are a division bigger than their opponent come fight night.

I agree with this - I'd rather see a standing 8 then a stoppage - but I'd rather see a well time stoppage then a shitty 8 count.

[bripez]

I watch a lot of MMA and you see guy knocked out on the floor taking punches and they aren't further injured.

How do you know this ?

Are you just talking about a physical injury immediately after the fight ? - what about a year later, or 10 years or 20 years (when the boxer could still only be in their 40's) ?

I am not sure how long MMA has been going or if there has been a study of long term damage.

I am not a doctor, but I am guessing that getting punched in the head (and particularly getting knocked out) is not good for anyone's health.

As a boxing fan I like to see competitive fights, but I don't want to see anybody take unnecessary punishment - the issue is, the definition of "unnecessary" is very subjective and most often relies on the judgement of the ref.

[Datsue]

Jeff, Brian is your mate so I understand that you're niggled by this one. Under the rules we have IJL was right to stop the fight. If Brian was at all with it and switched on he'd have taken a knee or grabbed hold of Jones, he did neither of those things and looked like punctured dinghy being dropped off the top of the tower. Bringing in standing eights is the solution, until that's done I'm not going to get too up in arms when a referee waves off a fight in situations like on Saturday.

It's not just Brian and Ian john Lewis I'm talking about mate - Howard foster and groves, Enzo and Ovil 1. It's frustrating that these fights are ruined by poor decision making.

If I may interject... Each of the last two led to rematches, highly publicised, good money pay-days.

I fail to see the damage, other than to the pride of the participants. I'm not participating, but as I'm a paying consumer I'd rather see somebody's pride irreparably damaged than their brain.

Also, stoppages that the loser thinks are "quick" give the dude something to moan about to their grandkids. This is an important service & should not be overlooked.

Fights need to be let go longer. It's almost crazy that these premature stoppages happen so frequenly yet there are hardly any big punchers in the UK anymore - at least statistically?? Where have all the punchers gone?

Fighters are partly scared to throw/fight with the abandon that guarantees KO's/KO'd by, imo, 'cos of the influence of TV money on the sport. It's a stylistic thing generated by matchmaking & what happens when you lose (long time out, no more/less TV money).

But have there ever been a slew of big hitters at world level? We remember Takaloo, Wayne & Ensley 'cos they were hammer-fisted nearly men. So was Mickey Hughes.

Didn't exactly shatter the world scene though, did they? How many times were they bested domestically/at Euro level by guys who couldn't hit like that? More often than not.

I'd also say it's probably a bit more to do with physiology; boxers are better athletes I feel especially in modern, calibrated senses--isolation exercises, you dig? Bigger gym muscles--but a differing socio-economic backgrounds, less childhood/infant physical labour & less manual labour in general means a lack of the explosive, torso-tastic whipping power that true punchers have.

Look at what strong men used to look like thirty, forty years ago: big barrel chested big-gutted motherfuckers who could pick up a car. Probably couldn't bench-press fvck-all, but give 'em a huge block to shift for eighteen hours a day, no problem.

It's the difference between hod-carriers & weight lifters, if you like. There's less hod carriers & more athletes/weight lifters.

There's an old photo of Dempsey from the back, doing a stretch. Looks like a fvcking anatomical model. Doesn't look like a modern boxer--no traps, no big wings of lats. All in the spine/support muscles.

I also think--& it ties back into the stylistic thing--boxing is far more conservative, stylistically, these days. Good amateur backgrounds probably help with that, as is the way modern amateur boxing is so well-funded & well, mainstream now.

Kids starting out down the road from me are shown how to jab whilst protecting themselves, even in the boxercise classes. I was told "Get in there & take his fcking head off."

[Shirow]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Bwalya

Hi Jon,

Felix Bwala was stopped late - he was also paraded around the ring in a semi comatose state having being declared the winner at the conclusion of his bizarre bout with Paul Burke. Very sad but that doesn't really fit.

According to the NY Times linked from the Wiki page he went on a 2 day bender after the fight while on malaria medication complained of a headache then slipped into a coma. So maybe this isn’t valid example.

On the subject of standing 8 counts they make me more queasy. If you stop a boxer who is swaying about just before he is about to be stopped and give him a few seconds to recover it will prolong the beating and long gruelling beatings are proved to do long term damage.

If only refs were given a platform to justify their definition of 'unable to protect oneself' i think it would feedback into all ref's performances.

[Boxerbeetle]

I guess the concern fighters will have - particularly with certain UK refs - is that they'll take a knee but then get immediately stopped by the referee anyway when they get up, no matter how much they've recovered.

Diego Corrales had the right idea - spit the mouthpiece out as soon as you go down to buy yourself a few more precious seconds & demonstrate you've still got your senses.

So I suppose I'm saying that Rose should have taken a knee, then dropkicked his mouthpiece across the arena

[Flump]

Standing eight counts and allowing refs to explain decisions would curb a lot of problems. Fair weight-making would also eliminate a lot of dangers, given that fighters regularly add a lot of weight and, in some cases, are a division bigger than their opponent come fight night.

Personally speaking I'm not a fan of standing counts, either you are fit to continue or you're not, it's the referee's job to determine that. It's also open to abuse, every time the home fighter gets wobbled the hometown ref can give him a standing count that in reality goes on for 15+ seconds.

Is a standing count an automatic 10-8 round?

[Datsue]

Is a standing count an automatic 10-8 round?

I appreciate what you're saying mate, but the only rational response would be "There is no such thing as an automatic 10-8 round", followed by "of course, the ten-point must system must be reworked so that we use the fcking ten points, or at least more than three of them, with bigger margins allowed for clear rounds without a knockdown/dude being hurt etc".

& by then we're so far off-topic it's all a bit moot, like.