Refs jumping in too early

[Sklar]

Is a standing count an automatic 10-8 round?

For me, I'd class it as equivalent to a knockdown and score accordingly. Where the three knockdown rule is in effect I'd include each standing eight as one of the three. I see what you're saying about it being open to abuse but I don't think there is as much corruption in the sport as is speculated. The overwhelming majority of 'dodgy x' is, in my view, down to non-deliberate human error. Even a glaring example of a situation like Bruno in Tyson one would have coped with a standing eight, the ref could've weighed things up for a moment and made his call. I don't really see why people are anti.

[Trojans44]

Further then this can anyone give me an example of a fighter who was badly in trouble in the early rounds and Jen got stopped late and was injured?

I think this really misses the point about the nature of how fighters get injured. If a boxer gets buzzed, feels dizzy, is unsteady on his feet etc that is a bad concussion. Point being he is already seriously injured. All the research tells us that people who have been concussed are exponentially more likely to suffer them in the future; hence why fighters' punch resistance decreases over time. Concussion is closely linked to brain damage.

Now of course it may not be that an extra few digs will result in a brain bleed or equivalent injury in the here and now but it is utterly beyond doubt that it puts them at increased risk of long-term brain damage further down the road.

Allowing a fighter who is clearly concussed to continue to recieve blows to the head is nothing short of barbaric.

[moogie101]

Further then this can anyone give me an example of a fighter who was badly in trouble in the early rounds and Jen got stopped late and was injured?

I think this really misses the point about the nature of how fighters get injured. If a boxer gets buzzed, feels dizzy, is unsteady on his feet etc that is a bad concussion. Point being he is already seriously injured. All the research tells us that people who have been concussed are exponentially more likely to suffer them in the future; hence why fighters' punch resistance decreases over time. Concussion is closely linked to brain damage.

Now of course it may not be that an extra few digs will result in a brain bleed or equivalent injury in the here and now but it is utterly beyond doubt that it puts them at increased risk of long-term brain damage further down the road.

Allowing a fighter who is clearly concussed to continue to recieve blows to the head is nothing short of barbaric.

Couldn't agree more. We've all seen incredible fights where guys were hurt but carried on to win, but any shot they took after being already hurt has to be doing some sort of brain damage. sadly its not the sort of damage that is noticeable immediately but has a great effect on fighters in later life.

All sports now are researching the effects of concussions, in the NFL you just put your helmet on & went back onto the field, now independent doctors assess you & if believed to be concussed then you're out of the game.

[Boxerbeetle]

Further then this can anyone give me an example of a fighter who was badly in trouble in the early rounds and Jen got stopped late and was injured?

I think this really misses the point about the nature of how fighters get injured. If a boxer gets buzzed, feels dizzy, is unsteady on his feet etc that is a bad concussion. Point being he is already seriously injured. All the research tells us that people who have been concussed are exponentially more likely to suffer them in the future; hence why fighters' punch resistance decreases over time. Concussion is closely linked to brain damage.

Now of course it may not be that an extra few digs will result in a brain bleed or equivalent injury in the here and now but it is utterly beyond doubt that it puts them at increased risk of long-term brain damage further down the road.

Allowing a fighter who is clearly concussed to continue to recieve blows to the head is nothing short of barbaric.

Couldn't agree more. We've all seen incredible fights where guys were hurt but carried on to win, but any shot they took after being already hurt has to be doing some sort of brain damage. sadly its not the sort of damage that is noticeable immediately but has a great effect on fighters in later life.

All sports now are researching the effects of concussions, in the NFL you just put your helmet on & went back onto the field, now independent doctors assess you & if believed to be concussed then you're out of the game.

So what are we saying here - stop the fight as soon as a meaningful punch lands?

[moogie101]

Couldn't agree more. We've all seen incredible fights where guys were hurt but carried on to win, but any shot they took after being already hurt has to be doing some sort of brain damage. sadly its not the sort of damage that is noticeable immediately but has a great effect on fighters in later life.

All sports now are researching the effects of concussions, in the NFL you just put your helmet on & went back onto the field, now independent doctors assess you & if believed to be concussed then you're out of the game.

So what are we saying here - stop the fight as soon as a meaningful punch lands?

Obviously not. I'm saying stop a fight when a fighter isn't defending himself.
Its boxing, people are getting punched, but when a guy is rocked & clearly isn't defending himself then the fight has to be stopped. There are things in place that allow a boxer who still has his senses to continue the fight, but if too hurt to take advantage of these then the ref has to step in.

The rules that a boxer should be intelligently defending himself. That doesn't mean standing there with arms up & getting punched. Guys might recover immediately after the referee has stopped the fight & given them a break from being hit, but if it had carried on & the opponent continues to land heavy blows on a defenceless & hurt fighter we are only asking for tragic consequences.

Obviously a lot of this is coming after the Rose fight, but if Rose would have been the one landing those blows & the fight would have been stopped in his favour instead the crowd would have cheered & everyone would have been happy. Seems to only be a controversy because the wrong guy won.

[Flump]

Standing eight counts and allowing refs to explain decisions would curb a lot of problems. Fair weight-making would also eliminate a lot of dangers, given that fighters regularly add a lot of weight and, in some cases, are a division bigger than their opponent come fight night.

Personally speaking I'm not a fan of standing counts, either you are fit to continue or you're not, it's the referee's job to determine that. It's also open to abuse, every time the home fighter gets wobbled the hometown ref can give him a standing count that in reality goes on for 15+ seconds.

Is a standing count an automatic 10-8 round?

You’d use it in conjunction with the three knockdown rule, which can cause problems (Witherspoon etc.) but is generally OK.

No rounds an automatic 10-8, it’s a discretionary call depending on how the fighter does after getting up. The 10 must means that, in rounds where both hit the deck, one person still gets the 10, so the judge might see one guy take a knee, after take a proper fall and go 10-9 in the favour of the one who took the knee, as he may have shown that he wasn’t as badly hurt.

It’s down to interpretation of the refs and judges.

I appreciate that mate, I should have asked if it's judged in the same way a knockdown would be.

Personally if I was a fighter and I had my opponent staggering around like a drunk on rollerskates I'd want to be able to press home the advantage I'd earned by either stopping or flooring him heavily, not have them get given respite through a standing count if they are unwilling/too buzzed to take a knee.

I can see that it gives the referee a safety net if they are not sure, but it's just my preference for the ref to decide whether the guy can continue or not in the moment.

[Trojans44]

Another the thing that gets me about safety in boxing is the utter futility of ring side doctors. Burns-Beltran is a good example of a fighter that definitely shouldnt have been fighting on. If its the case that I can spot that from my couch 4 cobras in what the hell is the doctor doing?

[rhino222]

Standing 8 counts are not the answer. The fighter will make the call if he knows he is in bad trouble, he can take a knee at anytime he wants. If you are obviously hurt (as brian was) then take a knee, if you dont and still show signs of being hurt (as brian was continuing to do) then you could argue that the fighter has lost his ability to think rationally then the ref is right to stop him. At the time I thought it an appaling stoppage, after slo mo replays etc I think it was just a poor one. Mackenzie v enzo 1 was far far worse.

[crusader]

Mackenzie v enzo 1 was far far worse.

That is by far the worst stoppage I've seen, so I don't think it's the best point of comparison for judging how bad other stoppages are.

[Tuan_Jim]

What fighter would be comfortable taking a knee in a British boxing ring? Being that our referees are angling to jump in and wave off a fight the moment someone is wobbled, going down voluntarily to recover your wits - a classic old time tactic - would now be an invitation to a British referee to terminate the fight. And perhaps the accusation of quitting, or wanting out.

British referees are above reproach and we won't do a thing about their antics, seems to be the message of the BBBoC. Essentially 'take it or leave it'. The great majority of the public have opted to leave it, long ago.

[olij999]

Standing eight counts and allowing refs to explain decisions would curb a lot of problems. Fair weight-making would also eliminate a lot of dangers, given that fighters regularly add a lot of weight and, in some cases, are a division bigger than their opponent come fight night.

Personally speaking I'm not a fan of standing counts, either you are fit to continue or you're not, it's the referee's job to determine that. It's also open to abuse, every time the home fighter gets wobbled the hometown ref can give him a standing count that in reality goes on for 15+ seconds.

Is a standing count an automatic 10-8 round?

You’d use it in conjunction with the three knockdown rule, which can cause problems (Witherspoon etc.) but is generally OK.

No rounds an automatic 10-8, it’s a discretionary call depending on how the fighter does after getting up. The 10 must means that, in rounds where both hit the deck, one person still gets the 10, so the judge might see one guy take a knee, after take a proper fall and go 10-9 in the favour of the one who took the knee, as he may have shown that he wasn’t as badly hurt.

It’s down to interpretation of the refs and judges.

I agree, but just with a small correction. In Britain, a knockdown means a one-point swing in favour of the person who scored the knockdown, so the 10-8 round usually happens because Boxer A has won the round and scored a knockdown. There is no difference between a heavy knockdown, taking a knee or whatever - down is down, and it means a one-point swing. If the round is even apart from the knockdown, it is 10-9, and if Boxer B wins the rest of the round, it's 10-10. A good example of where a 10-10 round can occur is in McAuley v Blanco 1 for the IBF Flyweight title (and indeed most of McAuley's career, given his ability to get knocked down as if briefly short-circuited and then get back up and be boxing within a few seconds as if nothing had happened). So the heaviness of the knockdown itself should not be taken into account, but in practical terms it is likely to affect who wins the rest of the round (as someone who has been down heavily is less likely to win the rest of the round than someone who has taken a knee and recovered).

Hope that helps.

[MightyWarrior]

I think in Ian John Lewis must hold the world record for worst premature stoppage of all time, with the Enzo fight, hard to beat that one.

This was the most notorious early stoppage of the 80's, and it was for the heavyweight title, the ref never lived it down - rematch was a 15 round draw.

http://youtu.be/MLUGIpxSpS0

[mickey1975]

I think in Ian John Lewis must hold the world record for worst premature stoppage of all time, with the Enzo fight, hard to beat that one.

This was the most notorious early stoppage of the 80's, and it was for the heavyweight title, the ref never lived it down - rematch was a 15 round draw.

http://youtu.be/MLUGIpxSpS0

That would have been stopped after 40 seconds over here, without too much complaint.

[olij999]

I agree, but just with a small correction. In Britain, a knockdown means a one-point swing in favour of the person who scored the knockdown, so the 10-8 round usually happens because Boxer A has won the round and scored a knockdown. There is no difference between a heavy knockdown, taking a knee or whatever - down is down, and it means a one-point swing. If the round is even apart from the knockdown, it is 10-9, and if Boxer B wins the rest of the round, it's 10-10. A good example of where a 10-10 round can occur is in McAuley v Blanco 1 for the IBF Flyweight title (and indeed most of McAuley's career, given his ability to get knocked down as if briefly short-circuited and then get back up and be boxing within a few seconds as if nothing had happened). So the heaviness of the knockdown itself should not be taken into account, but in practical terms it is likely to affect who wins the rest of the round (as someone who has been down heavily is less likely to win the rest of the round than someone who has taken a knee and recovered).

Hope that helps.

Cheers for the post. Do you know if the 10-10 was applied on that card and if there's any others knocking about that I can look at?

The full card for McAuley v Blanco 1 was printed on the letters page (page 10) of Boxing News of 5 October 1990. If you can't get hold of a copy, let me know and I'll see if I can scan it.

[crusader]

I think in Ian John Lewis must hold the world record for worst premature stoppage of all time, with the Enzo fight, hard to beat that one.

This was the most notorious early stoppage of the 80's, and it was for the heavyweight title, the ref never lived it down - rematch was a 15 round draw.

http://youtu.be/MLUGIpxSpS0

Agree about Enzo-Ovill; worst stoppage I recall seeing since I started watching the sport 13 years ago.