Why being high on a p4p all time list does not mean much

[Chepppaaa]

I studied records of all time great like armstrong, jimmy wilde (not wilder/ type mistake), greb, langford, robinson etc and one things comes to my mind, that basicly 80 % opponents on their record were prety much bad quality of opponents.

the main reason why so many so called experts have the old timers so high, is because they have 100 + opponent, sometimes even 200 +. thats always the main reason:"yeah, floyd is good, but he only had 40+ fights, chavez had more ko's than floyd has total of fights." well, the first 80 fights chavez had he was only fight crap and ones he fought elite guys he kept losing and losing of got gift decision, were floyd started boxing good level since his 24 fight and kept on fighting quality beating quality, so why should chavez be above floyd, just because chavez has twice as much fights as floyd?

therefore no boxer from today or future can become an all time great or top 10 atg material, because boxers from today or future will certainly never gonne box 100 + fights or how i call it sparring matches. I mean robinson fought guys with 43-17-2 or 17-14-3 records and not at the beginning of his career, but well on when he was primearound 49. it's like letting a prime pacquiao box Silverio Ortiz who has a 34(16)-14(4)-0 record. people would shake their head if such match would be made, but old timers get a pass and its totaly okay that most of their fights were sparring matches against crap opponents.

the funny part about it, is when so called boxing experts go full retard mode and say things like "armstrong would beat leonard, because armstrong had a better record." when in reality when you watch tapes of armstrong, 95 % of the time his head was open and 0 guard and he was basicly coming at you, with no guard, head full open unprotected and you wanna tell me he could beat leonard, who was capable at his best delivering 7 punches a second at his very best and would have totaly lazered with henry with those fast punches on an easy open target.

and now you gonne come at me and talk about achievemants, well what is tougher to do, having each month a fight against a cab driver with an 5-8-2 record or boxing 3 times a year, but against strong dudes, who train proffesional with good record?

[fanman]

You make some good points cheppa about atg fighting club fighters.
However. Srr, for example. I know within 2 years of going pro he had beat the lightweight champ in a non title match. He was fighting lamotta a top middleweight contender. So he mixed in a lot of hard fights. He fought lamotta twice in 2 weeks for gods sake!
And as for atg lists, they are purely speculative. I personally wouldnt put greb or langford in there though they must have been great because ive never seen them fight.

If i am correct i did see a list of yours and pac was no.8 but duran was not on it? Care to explain?

[tiny_acres]

I can see some of what you are saying.Not 100% on board but I do
agree with the premise.

[Yes We Can]

Floyd could certainly be compared to Sugar Leonard, whom he is behind on any Mythical all time P4P list in my eyes.

[tiny_acres]

Floyd could certainly be compared to Sugar Leonard, whom he is behind on any Mythical all time P4P list in my eyes.

I classify Pac and Mayweather on the same level as Leonard.
People disagree but it is just an opinion.We all have them and p4p is so subjective.
Pac and Mayweather's longevity at the top level outweigh Leonards spectacular
resume.Due to Leonards relatively short career.(in terms of number of fights)

[Badhusker]

Floyd could certainly be compared to Sugar Leonard, whom he is behind on any Mythical all time P4P list in my eyes.

I classify Pac and Mayweather on the same level as Leonard.
People disagree but it is just an opinion.We all have them and p4p is so subjective.
Pac and Mayweather's longevity at the top level outweigh Leonards spectacular
resume.Due to Leonards relatively short career.(in terms of number of fights)

True, SRL was shot at 34, and many thought he lost to the ready-to-retire Hagler. If it was a 12 round fight vs Hearns, their pfp status would be flip flopped, because Hearns was ahead on all cards. Leonard was very good, but not like legions ahead of Floyd in skill or competition like some think. His popularity now is much greater than it was then - same for Ali. Both were hated by many then like Floyd is now.

[Cloutov]

All time p4p list are very subjective has it is near impossible to get a clear top 10. I personnaly think that every guy on the top 10-15 can be no 1 on any given night. In 20 years from now we ll talk about Manny and Floyd like we talk about Leonard, Robinson, Ali...

[ReggieDiggs]

ATG is easily the silliest thing the average boxing fan talks about. Boxing IQ's fall more than rise over these discussions usually.

If you really wanna talk about this sorta topic with an inch of expertise you need to become a true student of the sport & dedicate your life for years just watching all you can see & reading all you can read about the best fighters & their opponents since the beginning of modern boxing back at the end of John L. Sullivan's reign til yesterday. There is far too much info out there for the overwhelming majority of hardcore boxing fans to spit real knowledge. Might as well be talking about your favorite housewife of wherever instead of best ATG fighters for 98% of boxing fans with the knowledge they hold about fighters of the past.

Also its just a lil childhood superhero-ish in a Batman can beat the Flash sorta way to do all this historic dick measuring.

[Yes We Can]

All time p4p list are very subjective has it is near impossible to get a clear top 10. I personnaly think that every guy on the top 10-15 can be no 1 on any given night. In 20 years from now we ll talk about Manny and Floyd like we talk about Leonard, Robinson, Ali...

They will both be in that conversation along with possibly even JMM, Barrera and Morales.

[uptconnect]

Wait, hold up... Are you telling us that being listed on a pretend ranking list, a pretend ranking list that is independent to each fan and subjective to each individual's own likes and dislikes, doesn't mean much?

What??

[Cloutov]

Ya depend on how he finish is carreer, Wlad will be mention,

[Chepppaaa]

You make some good points cheppa about atg fighting club fighters.
However. Srr, for example. I know within 2 years of going pro he had beat the lightweight champ in a non title match. He was fighting lamotta a top middleweight contender. So he mixed in a lot of hard fights. He fought lamotta twice in 2 weeks for gods sake!
And as for atg lists, they are purely speculative. I personally wouldnt put greb or langford in there though they must have been great because ive never seen them fight.

If i am correct i did see a list of yours and pac was no.8 but duran was not on it? Care to explain?

robinson is an great exception. he, not like armstrong wasnt coming at you with 0 guard. robinson was so much ahead of his time. in terms of technic, or athletic ability, being fast, yet powerful puncher, just a 1 in a 100 years kind of talent.

even if you speculate, you have to make some sense behind it. give clear reasons to it. he is faster, stronger, got a uch better chin, is technily superior because etc....., that are clear reasons, but not like boxiner wannaba experts:" this guy is better and would beat the other guy, because the boxer a has 150 fights in 4 division and boxer b only 40 in 1 division."

the list i made was made by me prety fast. thats why it is an incorect list by myself, although some are at the right place like jones being 1, robinson 2 and leonard 3, but the rest, its so close.

its just so funny, every sport in the world, the athletes become better. they become faster, stronger. back than a guy like laver was the best at tennis, now he would be considered slow and weak and physical monsters like nadal would total crush him. back than you were considered fast when you had 10 secondes in 100 m run, now there are guys like blake or bolt running around 9,72-9,58. in every sport athletes become better because training gets better, DNA gets better, athletes become more athletic, every sport improves, only boxing in the eyes of many, nonsense.

[Chepppaaa]

ATG is easily the silliest thing the average boxing fan talks about. Boxing IQ's fall more than rise over these discussions usually.

If you really wanna talk about this sorta topic with an inch of expertise you need to become a true student of the sport & dedicate your life for years just watching all you can see & reading all you can read about the best fighters & their opponents since the beginning of modern boxing back at the end of John L. Sullivan's reign til yesterday. There is far too much info out there for the overwhelming majority of hardcore boxing fans to spit real knowledge. Might as well be talking about your favorite housewife of wherever instead of best ATG fighters for 98% of boxing fans with the knowledge they hold about fighters of the past.

Also its just a lil childhood superhero-ish in a Batman can beat the Flash sorta way to do all this historic dick measuring.

you sound like a total smart arse. why is judging an atg list silly. isnt fantasy and imagination one of the greatest things to do. and how is it silly to fantasies and let 2 atg fighter box each other and you invision based on how they move, how their skillset is who certainly would win.

i remember this boxing expert, writer of a lot of boxing books talking about bob fitzemmon being the best boxer ever.....hahahaaha.......the dude didnt even have footwork at all, but sure, he is the #1 ever.

[Chepppaaa]

the biggest joke ever is in 9 out of 10 p4p all time top 10 lists, done by experts, you always have duran between 6-9, with no leonard, no hearns and no hagler.

thats the biggest joke ever. you got leonard easily winning the rematch and third fight, but you dont put him above duran. you got hearns rumbling in 2, but sure, duran is better than hearns because he got more fights ....nonsense, please stop guys, i cant take it anymore.

[stevedoc]

What ATG is wilder?

[Chepppaaa]

What ATG is wilder?

call me crazy, but i do think he would beat guys like frazier or liston. he is more athletic than those guys, has a stronger punch and moves vetter inside the ring, more fluid, not as robotic and plum as liston and frazier. were exactly wilder is in a all time p4p list, tough to say, i had to think about it more, but he is good.

[stevedoc]

What ATG is wilder?

call me crazy, but i do think he would beat guys like frazier or liston. he is more athletic than those guys, has a stronger punch and moves vetter inside the ring, more fluid, not as robotic and plum as liston and frazier. were exactly wilder is in a all time p4p list, tough to say, i had to think about it more, but he is good.

Maybe he will go on to be a great but right now it's like comparing James regale with ray Robinson

[Ezzard]

the biggest joke ever is in 9 out of 10 p4p all time top 10 lists, done by experts, you always have duran between 6-9, with no leonard, no hearns and no hagler.

thats the biggest joke ever. you got leonard easily winning the rematch and third fight, but you dont put him above duran. you got hearns rumbling in 2, but sure, duran is better than hearns because he got more fights ....nonsense, please stop guys, i cant take it anymore.

But by that logic you'd rank Iran Barkely over Hearns.

[Chepppaaa]

What ATG is wilder?

call me crazy, but i do think he would beat guys like frazier or liston. he is more athletic than those guys, has a stronger punch and moves vetter inside the ring, more fluid, not as robotic and plum as liston and frazier. were exactly wilder is in a all time p4p list, tough to say, i had to think about it more, but he is good.

Maybe he will go on to be a great but right now it's like comparing James regale with ray Robinson

not at all, cause degale compared to robinson poses 0 advantage over robinson. not in any term. while deonthay has advantages that i named.

[Chepppaaa]

the biggest joke ever is in 9 out of 10 p4p all time top 10 lists, done by experts, you always have duran between 6-9, with no leonard, no hearns and no hagler.

thats the biggest joke ever. you got leonard easily winning the rematch and third fight, but you dont put him above duran. you got hearns rumbling in 2, but sure, duran is better than hearns because he got more fights ....nonsense, please stop guys, i cant take it anymore.

But by that logic you'd rank Iran Barkely over Hearns.

heanrs was more of a welterweight-154 boxer, his prime was at 154 in my oppinion. barkley was a big strong tough rugged naturel middleweight. therefore you could say hearns over barkley, because barkley at the favourite weight of hearns around 147 would play out different. but, barkley is so damn underrated, he won against hearns and had a near win over duran, very underrated dude.

[Chepppaaa]

What ATG is wilder?

call me crazy, but i do think he would beat guys like frazier or liston. he is more athletic than those guys, has a stronger punch and moves vetter inside the ring, more fluid, not as robotic and plum as liston and frazier. were exactly wilder is in a all time p4p list, tough to say, i had to think about it more, but he is good.

Sugar Ray Leonard throwing seven meaningful punches in a second… Mike Tyson ranked in 4th place of the all-time-great list… and Deontay Wilder is an all-time-great that could beat Frazier & Liston… whatever next?

Yeah, I’d call you crazy!

i never said meaningful punches, dont put words into my mouth i didnt said!
donaire can throw 14 punches in 3 secondes, go watch on ytub. that makes 4,6 punches a second for donaire. i see prime leonard as a speedyer puncher as donaire, so why is 7 so far out of ranch? maybe its 5-6 punches a second, what does it matter, bottum line is and the mainpoint i wanted to point out is that if you come like armstrong infront of leonard with basicly non excisting guard, than you get hecked, no matter if its 5,6 or 7 punches a seconde.

prime tyson was one of the baddest man this earth has ever seen. ultimate power, ultimate chin, ultimate speed and pretty acurrate and great upper body and head movemant, why is it so far away him being in a p4p atg top 5 list? because he lost some bouts, when he wasnt training at all and having his mein focus on party and girls? most put ali and louis in 1-5, i say tyson cracks both em. than obviously i put him above them, that simple.

wilder is the future. i dont need 40 fights of him to see his talent. i see what i see and that is a heavyweight boxer who is more athletic, punches harder than any heavyweight in the world (dont come with wlad, he is a greco roman wrestler, i dont rate him as a boxer)

[Ricky_]

Boxing fans place too much emphasis on a fighters opponent and not enough on a fighters ability. You can tell just by looking at footage of sugar ray rb he's the undisputed goat. He was gifted beyond anything you'll ever see. Simply the perfect boxing specimen.

[Chepppaaa]

Boxing fans place too much emphasis on a fighters opponent and not enough on a fighters ability. You can tell just by looking at footage of sugar ray rb he's the undisputed goat. He was gifted beyond anything you'll ever see. Simply the perfect boxing specimen.

exactly and thats the main reason he is 1 or 2 for me, because prime roy was also from another planet. but like you said, footage shows it all, his ability was super rare and this made him the arguably best boxer ever and not that he had 100 + fights with 80 % sparring matches.

[man]

i see the OPs idea and think there is truth in
this but you cannot hold the many bouts against
the ATGs either. they had to make money, which
seems much easier today.

regarding certain fighters like JCC, i think he is
spot on, which is one reason why the board in
general is more critical about the mexican than
the general public.

regarding SRL and floyd, that is really a very
tricky question, because for once floyd would
meet a man with as much ring intelligence as
himself, plus with at least the same hand speed.
prime ray is almost impossible to beat. (in my
book he lost the first to duran due to his own
hybris, that made him rather fight than box
the smaller man).

[IKSRTFO]

Floyd could certainly be compared to Sugar Leonard, whom he is behind on any Mythical all time P4P list in my eyes.

I classify Pac and Mayweather on the same level as Leonard.
People disagree but it is just an opinion.We all have them and p4p is so subjective.
Pac and Mayweather's longevity at the top level outweigh Leonards spectacular
resume.Due to Leonards relatively short career.(in terms of number of fights)

True, SRL was shot at 34, and many thought he lost to the ready-to-retire Hagler. If it was a 12 round fight vs Hearns, their pfp status would be flip flopped, because Hearns was ahead on all cards. Leonard was very good, but not like legions ahead of Floyd in skill or competition like some think. His popularity now is much greater than it was then - same for Ali. Both were hated by many then like Floyd is now.

Floyd wouldn't have beaten neither even with his skill so that point is invalid. And I can't think of one guy on Floyd's resume that would've surely beaten Leonard. Not one.