Jimmy Ellis - How Good

[Scypion]

I was wondering what the opinions here are on Jimmy Ellis as a boxer? I won't give my opinion until I have heard some others.

[evrenb]

I was wondering what the opinions here are on Jimmy Ellis as a boxer? I won't give my opinion until I have heard some others.

My opinion of Jimmy Ellis (I take you mean the 1960's version)

I think a really excellent fighter who when he took Dundee's advice and became a heavy he improved a lot. A very precise puncher with good form. An excellent jab and a terriffic right hand cross. In his Heavyweight prime he had a very good chin also.
It seemed that during the time Ali was banned he blossomed into a better fighter as though he wasn't worthy of being the best when Ali was around.
He had great wins over Johnny Persol, Leotis Martin, Oscar Bonavena and Jerry Quarry. They were his prime performances in my opinion. He managed to drop Bonavena twice and for a small Heavyweight that was a great achievement.
Unfortunately he ran into a prime Joe Frazier who was amazing that night, but Ellis fought very competitively but was run over.
He had another decent win over Chuvalo in an entertaining fight and that was his last real good win in my opinion.
He gave Ali a decent tussle in a strange fight. But was ultimately outclassed.
After he was iced by Shavers (who landed an illegal punch) it was pretty much over for him.

A decent Heavyweight in a competitive era that shone quite bright in a short period. Owner of one of the best 'Naturals' of the era...

[Scypion]

I was wondering what the opinions here are on Jimmy Ellis as a boxer? I won't give my opinion until I have heard some others.

My opinion of Jimmy Ellis (I take you mean the 1960's version)

I think a really excellent fighter who when he took Dundee's advice and became a heavy he improved a lot. A very precise puncher with good form. An excellent jab and a terriffic right hand cross. In his Heavyweight prime he had a very good chin also.
It seemed that during the time Ali was banned he blossomed into a better fighter as though he wasn't worthy of being the best when Ali was around.
He had great wins over Johnny Persol, Leotis Martin, Oscar Bonavena and Jerry Quarry. They were his prime performances in my opinion. He managed to drop Bonavena twice and for a small Heavyweight that was a great achievement.
Unfortunately he ran into a prime Joe Frazier who was amazing that night, but Ellis fought very competitively but was run over.
He had another decent win over Chuvalo in an entertaining fight and that was his last real good win in my opinion.
He gave Ali a decent tussle in a strange fight. But was ultimately outclassed.
After he was iced by Shavers (who landed an illegal punch) it was pretty much over for him.

A decent Heavyweight in a competitive era that shone quite bright in a short period. Owner of one of the best 'Naturals' of the era...

Thanks for the response.

Jimmy Ellis (1960's version) was giving up 26 lbs. to Ali in their fight. Dundee said that Ali was just too big for Ellis. I wonder how tall and how big they were when they fought as amateurs. Ellis was 17 and Ali was 15 at the time with both beating the other once.

In his prime, I think that Ellis was as good as anyone other than Ali and Frazier. Maybe IBHOF for Ellis, but some might disagree.

[Scypion]

I think that it was really over for Jimmy Ellis when he lost to Muhammad Ali. Not so much that he took a physical beating, but losing to Ali, the man who had overshadowed him throughout his career and being dominated so much during the fight I think hurt him psychologically. His confidence was gone after that I believe. Evidence of this is the fact that Dundee had him take eight easy fights in a row against boxers that almost all had losing records. Only one of the eight, Bob Felstein, had a winning record (16 wins, 11 losses, and 1 draw). Ellis won all 8 fights by KO.

I don't know why they took the 2nd fight with Frazier in 1975. Ellis was 35 years old and clearly past it, and Frazier was 31. They must have known that Ellis had little chance at that point to beat Joe Frazier. They probably shouldn't have taken the Ali fight either.

[Scypion]

BTW, I saw this question posed on another forum. Who would win if Bob Foster moved up to heavyweight and fought Jimmy Ellis? Foster won the light heavyweight title about the same time that Ellis won his WBA heavyweight title. What if they fought a few months after they both won their titles?

[Broomhall]

Great fighter, with great athletic ability but I am not sure he ever really beleived in himself. Came across as relaxed and laid back and maybe lacked a ruthless streak that many of the really top fighters have.

Like Quarry it seemed to me he found himself in a boxing ring rather than it being his true calling if that makes sense?

[sweetsci]

His rise in the WBA tourney was quite remarkable. Ring had him at #10 going in, only on the basis of his win over Johnny Persol. I think taking 1969 off hurt Jimmy. Going against Joe Frazier after nearly a year and a half of inactivity was not good.

I'd always thought Ellis was written off after the first Frazier loss, and especially after the Ali loss. Ring magazine certainly didn't think much of him judging by their ratings. But I've been doing some ratings research lately and it turns out that, taking several ratings sources (mags like Boxing Illustrated and World Boxing, the WBA & WBC (organizational ratings were pretty accurate at that time)) into consideration, Ellis was #3 or #4 in the world from mid-72 through the Shavers fight. He still managed to stay top-10 through the Bugner fight despite losses to Kirkman and Lyle and the draw with Middleton. Up until the end of '74 Ellis was thought of as a solid contender by those around at the time.

[mikeycapp]

Hello Gentlemen,

Jimmy Ellis was certainly one of the most courageous heavyweights during the great heavyweight era which he participated in. Moving up in weight from a middleweight where he began his professional career to the heavyweight division and in doing so winning the 1968 WBA Heavyweight Championship was even more amazing in my opinion. By the mid 1970's (74,75) he was but a shell of the fighter he once was. He was giving up over 20LBS to many of the opponents that he was facing during this time period ie Ron Lyle 21LBS, Joe Bugner 23LBS. Although he was vacillating from 200LBS to 193 Ellis just did not have the power to compete against these true heavyweights. Versus Joe Bugner at times he was landing overhand rights on Bugner's chin thrown from the floor and Bugner is basically just looking at him and while Joe Bugner (Not known for his power) rips body shots to Ellis you can visibly see Ellis being moved by the punches (Bugner scored a Knockdown in the 10RD however the referee did not rule it as such he did not give Ellis a count).Jimmy Ellis was a very courageous guy who went as far as he could with his great talent. Possbily if he had "The Juice" like Evander he could have pulled more big wins against the larger heavyweights at the time. Thank god steroid use was not a used practice during the days of REAL BOXING.
I am Not trying to berate Evander he was a great warrior only speaking the truth.
Mikey Capp

[dempseyfire]

Hello Gentlemen,

Jimmy Ellis was certainly one of the most courageous heavyweights during the great heavyweight era which he participated in. Moving up in weight from a middleweight where he began his professional career to the heavyweight division and in doing so winning the 1968 WBA Heavyweight Championship was even more amazing in my opinion. By the mid 1970's (74,75) he was but a shell of the fighter he once was. He was giving up over 20LBS to many of the opponents that he was facing during this time period ie Ron Lyle 21LBS, Joe Bugner 23LBS. Although he was vacillating from 200LBS to 193 Ellis just did not have the power to compete against these true heavyweights against Joe Bugner at times he was landing with overhand rights from the floor and Bugner is basically just looking at him while Joe Bugner (Not known for his power) rips body shots to Ellis and you can visibly see Ellis being moved by the punches. A very courageous guy who went as far as he could with his great talent. Possbily if he had "The Juice" like Evander he could have pulled more big wins against the larger heavyweights at the time. Thank god steroid use was not a used practice during the days of REAL BOXING.
I am Not trying to berate Evander he was a great warrior only speaking the truth.
Mikey Capp

I completely disagree about Ellis's power; he was not a monster puncher but he was the biggest hitter of the middleweights who moved up to heavyweight besides Bob Fitz and Langford. Dropped the normally iron-jawed Bonavena and hurt almost everyone he managed to land that sneaky right hand on. He was in ways a precursor to the HW careers of Moorer, Toney, and Byrd . ..was probably most at home at 175 but fought at HW for the money and had the skills to beat the larger men.

[Tuan_Jim]

Ellis made a dent in plenty of heavyweights. He might have failed to crack the diamond solid head of Joe Bugner, but that doesn't mean much.

Mikey, I see you've passed a guilty verdict over Evander Holyfield. What was the evidence?

[Scypion]

Thanks for all the good responses.

I agree with most of what has been said here. Ellis was an excellent boxer who probably was around at the wrong time. In a different era, he may have held the heavyweight title for some years, or maybe the cruiserweight title.

As for Ellis vs Foster, I would have gone with Ellis (probably no surprise).

Angelo Dundee probably should get some credit for much of the success that Ellis had as a heavyweight. I guess that Dundee was one of the best, if not the best. He should have kept Ellis away from Frazier and Ali though. I guess that Ellis had to fight Frazier the first time or probably be stripped of his WBA title (he should have let them take it).

How about Jimmy Ellis for IBHOF, or is that an overreach. I think that Jimmy was as good or deserving as some that are in there.

[dempseyfire]

Thanks for all the good responses.

I agree with most of what has been said here. Ellis was an excellent boxer who probably was around at the wrong time. In a different era, he may have held the heavyweight title for some years, or maybe the cruiserweight title.

As for Ellis vs Foster, I would have gone with Ellis (probably no surprise).

Angelo Dundee probably should get some credit for much of the success that Ellis had as a heavyweight. I guess that Dundee was one of the best, if not the best. He should have kept Ellis away from Frazier and Ali though. I guess that Ellis had to fight Frazier the first time or probably be stripped of his WBA title (he should have let them take it).

How about Jimmy Ellis for IBHOF, or is that an overreach. I think that Jimmy was as good or deserving as some that are in there.

I wouldn't vote for IBHOF but my standards are stricter than the Hall's.

Ellis would've easily been a titleholder in the post-Lewis era. I'd favor him over the likes of Chagaev, Povetkin, Ibragimov, Ruiz, Brewster etc. despite giving up lbs.

[mikeycapp]

Tuan Jim common sense dictates! Holyfield goes from 188LBS Cruiserweight to 217LBS rock hard lean muscle for one, also he hangs out and trains with bodybuilder Lee Haney. In his fight with Bobby Czyz (No more than a blown up middleweight) Evander looked exhausted from the start of the fight and dried out meanwhile he threw every punch in the book at Bobby Czyz but he could not put him away, Czyz resigned in his corner due to his eyes burning (Not sure what the reason was behind the burning eyes I think he just wanted out of the fight in a graceful manner).

Those are just my observations but take a look at this article which says a lot about this subject. As far as I am concerned you can believe whatever you choose to believe Tuan Jim I really don't care. http://justnotsaid.blogspot.com/2014/03 ... roids.html

Below is a portion of the Link Above, very revealing!
On February 28, 2007, Holyfield was anonymously linked to Applied Pharmacy Services, a pharmacy in Alabama that is currently under investigation for supplying athletes with illegal steroids and human growth hormone (HGH). He denies ever using performance enhancers.
Holyfield's name does not appear in the law enforcement documents reviewed. However, a patient by the name of "Evan Fields" caught investigators' attention. "Fields" shares the same birth date as Holyfield—October 19, 1962. The listed address for "Fields" was 794 Evander, Fairfield, Ga. 30213. Holyfield has a very similar address. When the phone number that, according to the documents, was associated with the "Fields" prescription, was dialed, Holyfield answered.

Mikey Capp

[yancey]

I think that it was really over for Jimmy Ellis when he lost to Muhammad Ali. Not so much that he took a physical beating, but losing to Ali, the man who had overshadowed him throughout his career and being dominated so much during the fight I think hurt him psychologically. His confidence was gone after that I believe. Evidence of this is the fact that Dundee had him take eight easy fights in a row against boxers that almost all had losing records. Only one of the eight, Bob Felstein, had a winning record (16 wins, 11 losses, and 1 draw). Ellis won all 8 fights by KO.

I don't know why they took the 2nd fight with Frazier in 1975. Ellis was 35 years old and clearly past it, and Frazier was 31. They must have known that Ellis had little chance at that point to beat Joe Frazier. They probably shouldn't have taken the Ali fight either.

The reason for the second Ellis-Frazier fight in '75 was because the Ali camp (with Dundee as the observer) wanted a first hand opportunity to see how much Frazier had left before giving him a shot at Ali and the title.

In other words, Jimmy was used.

Based upon Joe's sluggish performance in Australia, it was felt that Joe was largely washed-up and would be relatively safe for Ali to take on, therefore he was given a chance.

[Scypion]

Thanks for all the good responses.

I agree with most of what has been said here. Ellis was an excellent boxer who probably was around at the wrong time. In a different era, he may have held the heavyweight title for some years, or maybe the cruiserweight title.

As for Ellis vs Foster, I would have gone with Ellis (probably no surprise).

Angelo Dundee probably should get some credit for much of the success that Ellis had as a heavyweight. I guess that Dundee was one of the best, if not the best. He should have kept Ellis away from Frazier and Ali though. I guess that Ellis had to fight Frazier the first time or probably be stripped of his WBA title (he should have let them take it).

How about Jimmy Ellis for IBHOF, or is that an overreach. I think that Jimmy was as good or deserving as some that are in there.

Getting back to Angelo Dundee, I think that he improved all of the fighters that he trained, including Ellis, Sugar Ray Leonard, Muhammad Ali, etc. As for Muhammad Ali, no trainer or coach could have kept him from being the heavyweight champion.

I do hope that Jimmy Ellis does make the IBHOF sometime. I don't know if he will be, but hopefully he ends up there.

[mikeycapp]

Hello Yancey,
Thank you for the very interesting information regarding Jimmy Ellis and the reason behind his rematch with Joe Frazier. It would give Angelo Dundee a good opportunity to observe if Frazier had slipped somewhat since the last time he and Ali had met and perhaps also aid Angelo in developing some strategic nuances going into the rubber match with Joe. Thanks again!
Mikey Capp

[Tuan_Jim]

Tuan Jim common sense dictates! Holyfield goes from 188LBS Cruiserweight to 217LBS rock hard lean muscle for one, also he hangs out and trains with bodybuilder Lee Haney. In his fight with Bobby Czyz (No more than a blown up middleweight) Evander looked exhausted from the start of the fight and dried out meanwhile he threw every punch in the book at Bobby Czyz but he could not put him away, Czyz resigned in his corner due to his eyes burning (Not sure what the reason was behind the burning eyes I think he just wanted out of the fight in a graceful manner).

Those are just my observations but take a look at this article which says a lot about this subject. As far as I am concerned you can believe whatever you choose to believe Tuan Jim I really don't care. http://justnotsaid.blogspot.com/2014/03 ... roids.html

Below is a portion of the Link Above, very revealing!
On February 28, 2007, Holyfield was anonymously linked to Applied Pharmacy Services, a pharmacy in Alabama that is currently under investigation for supplying athletes with illegal steroids and human growth hormone (HGH). He denies ever using performance enhancers.
Holyfield's name does not appear in the law enforcement documents reviewed. However, a patient by the name of "Evan Fields" caught investigators' attention. "Fields" shares the same birth date as Holyfield—October 19, 1962. The listed address for "Fields" was 794 Evander, Fairfield, Ga. 30213. Holyfield has a very similar address. When the phone number that, according to the documents, was associated with the "Fields" prescription, was dialed, Holyfield answered.

Mikey Capp

You're linking to blogs, are you serious?

As for jumping from 190 to heavyweight, why do people recycle this ignorant assumption that Holyfield's walk around weight was 190? Why is it Evander Holyfield alone, across all divisions, in all the annals of boxing, is the only fighter ever who wasn't making weight? Once you realise that Holyfield was walking around 200+, and that he started heavyweight in the low 200s and remained at that weight for many years, this 'sudden weight gain' is seen for the fallacy it is.

As for not being able to put Czyz away, he did put Czyz away. Bobby quit on his stool in 5.

[mikeycapp]

Ok Tuan Jim, so we will agree to disagree! But I will tell you what you want to hear ok! You convinced me, Evander never used steroids and he is the greatest heavyweight champion of all time! Jimmy Ellis can bang like George Foreman he was a terrific hitter. There! you have won! Mikey Capp

[Scypion]

I think that it was really over for Jimmy Ellis when he lost to Muhammad Ali. Not so much that he took a physical beating, but losing to Ali, the man who had overshadowed him throughout his career and being dominated so much during the fight I think hurt him psychologically. His confidence was gone after that I believe. Evidence of this is the fact that Dundee had him take eight easy fights in a row against boxers that almost all had losing records. Only one of the eight, Bob Felstein, had a winning record (16 wins, 11 losses, and 1 draw). Ellis won all 8 fights by KO.

I don't know why they took the 2nd fight with Frazier in 1975. Ellis was 35 years old and clearly past it, and Frazier was 31. They must have known that Ellis had little chance at that point to beat Joe Frazier. They probably shouldn't have taken the Ali fight either.

The reason for the second Ellis-Frazier fight in '75 was because the Ali camp (with Dundee as the observer) wanted a first hand opportunity to see how much Frazier had left before giving him a shot at Ali and the title.

In other words, Jimmy was used.

Based upon Joe's sluggish performance in Australia, it was felt that Joe was largely washed-up and would be relatively safe for Ali to take on, therefore he was given a chance.

Thanks for the info.

I agree about Ellis being used. Jimmy was washed up by then and Ali was still Dundee's main man. Angelo helped make Ellis a better fighter, but not sure that he really looked out for Jimmy in other ways.

I watched a middleweight bout of Jimmy Ellis last night (Ruben Carter) and Jimmy looked really skinny. He was really too tall to be a middleweight. The reason that he never fought Clay as an amateur after 1957 is because Cassius Clay moved up to light heavyweight in 1958 and Ellis stayed at middleweight. When Clay and Ellis fought twice in 1957 as amateurs, they must have both been middleweights. BTW, Jimmy Ellis had a pretty good amateur career.

[ThatOne]

When they used to ask Jimmy Ellis why Muhammad Ali was so good his wife told him to say that's because he taught him everything he knew.

I don't think either's heart was in their fight. It would be like fighting your best friend...

Interesting in that fight Ali was doing a lot of shoulder rolls... It would have been awesome if he complimented his unworldly athleticism with sound technical skills.

[Scypion]

When they used to ask Jimmy Ellis why Muhammad Ali was so good his wife told him to say that's because he taught him everything he knew.

I don't think either's heart was in their fight. It would be like fighting your best friend...

Interesting in that fight Ali was doing a lot of shoulder rolls... It would have been awesome if he complimented his unworldly athleticism with sound technical skills.

Ali and Ellis were friends, but Muhammad still had to show that he was clearly the superior fighter, as he did in all of his fights.

Ali clowned around in the 3rd round, moving around Ellis with his arms down, and Ellis still had trouble hitting him. After that, Muhammad Ali just methodically beat down Ellis until the last round when he picked up the pace and got a stoppage.

Jimmy Ellis' amateur record was 59 wins in 66 bouts. Don't know if there were any draws. He lost to Cassius Clay, Leotis Martin, Johnny Persol, Wilbert McClure, in his 7 non-wins as an amateur. Cassius Clay, Leotis Martin, and Ossie Marcano were among his wins during his amateur career. Jimmy got revenge on Johnny Persol, and further revenge on Leotis Martin after they turned pro with KO wins (Persol in the first round).

Wish that there were more Ellis heavyweight fights on film, The only heavyweight matches that I have seen are his two with Frazier, and his bouts with Ali, Shavers, Quarry, Bonavena, Patterson, and Leotis Martin. I would love to see his fights with George Chuvalo, Ron Lyle, Joe Bugner, Boone Kirkman, Larry Middleton, Tony Doyle, Johnny Persol, and Billy Daniels. I would even like to see his fights with some of his lesser opponents.

[Tuan_Jim]

Ellis-Chuvalo is certainly available.

[Scypion]

Ellis-Chuvalo is certainly available.

Where?

[Tuan_Jim]

I'm annoyingly out the loop on the selling/trading market but I'm sure it's out there. I don't know the extent of your search though. Probably a Klompton type can confirm? Or disgraced steroid cheat Mikey Capp?

[Tuan_Jim]

Also, I recently learned from Capp that Bugner-Ellis is out there as well!

I wonder if Lyle-Ellis will ever surface? Team Lyle seemed to film all of his fights.