Is Arum Having a Bad Year?

[ReggieDiggs]

It’s abundantly clear that Al Haymon’s stable, in terms of quality and quantity of big names, is now far bigger the total combined stables of Top Rank and GBP… and I have no idea how Oscar and Bob could possibly address the balance of power in the near future.

There's definitely some game changing things going on right now with Al. And I believe RocNation is a pit bull thats waking up at the moment to (they sneaked in & picked up two of the biggest names in the sport while only having promoted 1 show so far iirc), while obviously on a smaller patio than Al is on & seemingly not doing anything game changing.

The worse thing that can happen to TR & GBP right now is fighters coming into the game start seeing the benefit of not being nailed down to a promotional contract. If that happens TR & GBP are becoming better named & more known versions of Warriors, Goosen or DiBella promotions & just freelancing cards like those other orgs appear to be doing for Al.

Randomly I'm kinda expecting this "advisor" thing to take off as it makes zero sense for promoters to have all the power they do in the sport. I'm thinking we will see more "advisors" in the future. It wouldn't shock me to learn RocNation is doing this sorta thing to some degree (with the rumored 3 fight $50M deal with Miguel I think he's doing something cuz that would seem like far too much in TR's & GBP's world for Miguel) or would be willing to switch over to such a business model in the future as they are still new to the game & more versatile than the old dogs. For the old dogs this will be a huge change if it were to happen.

[ReggieDiggs]

You need to follow the sport more. Haymon rules by proxy, which led to Main Events filing a lawsuit alleging that he contravened the federal Muhammad Ali act, due to him operating as a manager and a promoter. If you want to know what "by proxy" means, look it up.

Haymon didn't even bother to defend the lawsuit.

This question is for anyone:

Why can't a manager (which is basically a "advisor" as it seems Al prefers to advertise himself as) outsource promotional duties without it violating the MAA?

From my understanding of the MAA its not a fan of a promoter acting as a manager (& thats exactly how I'd word it as even that doesn't seem entirely in violation of the MAA). There isn't really anything there suggesting a manager can't outsource promotional duties to promotional companies. Al isn't doing any promoting.

I'd say Oscar is more a promoter who "advises" Saul than Al is a manager that promotes anyone. Every promoter is doing some advising. Before Cotto signed with Roc Nation, Bob Arum was telling Cotto his choices for his next fight was Tim, Brandon or K9. Whats that if not trying to manage his career & advise him. Shouldn't Miguel & his manager be telling Bob who he's fighting next & Bob either saying yay or nay to it & if its a nay Miguel changing his opponent or going elsewhere?

And he didn't bother defending the lawsuit cuz it got dropped. I don't think anyone is trying to defend a dropped lawsuit. You seem to be trying to make that sound more nefarious than it is. And I'm in the Al/Richard f#cked over Oscar camp so I'm not of the opinion Al is unfailable, but that lawsuit isn't an area I believe you can dog Al too much about.

[koolkc107]

That lawsuit Kathy Duva filed was a loser the day it was filed and her and her lawyers knew it.

The danger was not in the lawsuit, but in the damage that could be done to Haymon's secrecy, which he obviously values.

But, as soon as the BHop fight was signed, it became moot and they had to drop it. No way they could show damage after that.

Hell, Kovalev is in a better position today than he would have if Adonis had not bolted.

He is now the acknowledged best in the division by most, yet there are still enough Stevenson believers to make a showdown an even huger match than it ever would have been.

But back to the main thrust of the OP...just take a look at the upcoming PBC bouts in the next few months.

I might be wrong, but it seems like Haymon is going to put on more big matchups in 2 or 3 months than TR did all last year.

[koolkc107]

Yes, BHop did what he did.

But, I'd say that the lawsuit gets dropped with the making of ANY decent fight by Kovalev.

Again, how was he going to show damage?

But, I agree that Bernard certainly expedited things and had a keen interest in doing so.

[koolkc107]

The lawsuit would have been rendered moot by ANY big fight.

Hell, he is going to walk away with more money Saturday than he did against Hopkins.

It was a loser from the jump, unless they were going to put Sergei on the shelf and act like he couldn't get any fights.

[koolkc107]

The lawsuit would have been rendered moot by ANY big fight.

I agree. You’re right. However, I’m not sure who else in the GBP & Haymon stable they could have used to grant Kovalev a big money title unification fight.

Didn't need to be Haymon or GBP.

The fight he is having in a few days would have done it.

(You can bet the lawsuit would still be in effect right now without the BHop fight)

[koolkc107]

The lawsuit would have been rendered moot by ANY big fight.

I agree. You’re right. However, I’m not sure who else in the GBP & Haymon stable they could have used to grant Kovalev a big money title unification fight.

Didn't need to be Haymon or GBP.

The fight he is having in a few days would have done it.

(You can bet the lawsuit would still be in effect right now without the BHop fight)

[koolkc107]

Didn't need to be Haymon or GBP.

The fight he is having in a few days would have done it.

(You can bet the lawsuit would still be in effect right now without the BHop fight)

I think you’ve misunderstood…

Kovalev fighting Pascal would have had no bearing on the outcome of the Main Events lawsuit, as the Canadian is a network free agent, promoted by Interbox and managed by Greg Leon (i.e. none of those parties were involved in Kathy Duva’s lawsuit).

I have misunderstood? Maybe.

I know that in the lawsuit, in order for it to be successful, Kovalev would have to show that he was financially and irreparably damaged by not fighting Adonis.

So, assuming the lawsuit was still in effect and that he fights Saturday for the biggest payday he has ever had...

Exactly how would he be able to show irreparable financial damage?

The fight with Stevenson didn't happen but technically still can.

And he is making more money than he ever has.

Good luck explaining how Sergei suffered...

[ReggieDiggs]

I agree with what you’re saying. Bob Arum strongly “advises” Manny Pacquiao, by proxy of Michael Koncz. Therefore, Haymon's not alone...

I don't think what Al does & what Bob & Oscar do are the same thing is what I mean. Al is alone. Bob & Oscar are doing something different. And I'm not even talking about this proxy stuff. Bob said out loud, to boxing media & Miguel that Miguel had these 3 guys. He's done the same with Manny in the past. Koncz or anyone else wasn't involved. And its all out in the open.

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So at least you know what happened with the Main Events lawsuit.

I'm not too interested in getting into all the details of the case again. There was a case. It got dropped. Al didn't need to defend anything in a dropped case. Thats all I'm saying.

Getting back on topic, I read an article on ESPN that alleged the main reason why Al Haymon hasn’t been sued for contravening the Muhammad Ali Act, is because his stable of fighters appear to be relatively happy, as they’re well paid and their careers are protected… much to the frustration of fight fans who only want to see the biggest bouts possible.

The Muhammad Ali Boxing Reform Act is supposed to “protect the rights and welfare of boxers”, but if Haymon’s stable of fighters are well looked after, then it’s extremely difficult for anyone to file a lawsuit against him.

So he's doing something bad in ESPN's opinion & maybe yours, but no fighter has called him on it so its whatever. Lets play devils advocate & lets say someone is unhappy right now. What part of the MAA is Al violating exactly?

And this is for anyone to answer.

Here's a link to the MAA

[koolkc107]

They filed for general and punitive damages.

Again, what money did he lose?

The fight fell through and he got a different one.

And the one he is going to fight Saturday is more lucrative than any of them.

He is way, way ahead because he didn't fight Adonis then AND that fight is still on the table.

So, how was he going to collect damages when he is better off the fight didn't take place?

General damages ARE based on actual losses you know.

And punitive ones on the idea that actions adverse to the plaintiff should be paid for?

Where is Kovalev's argument that his career was injured?

[koolkc107]

They filed for general and punitive damages.

Again, what money did he lose?

The fight fell through and he got a different one.

And the one he is going to fight Saturday is more lucrative than any of them.

He is way, way ahead because he didn't fight Adonis then AND that fight is still on the table.

So, how was he going to collect damages when he is better off the fight didn't take place?

General damages ARE based on actual losses you know.

And punitive ones on the idea that actions adverse to the plaintiff should be paid for?

Where is Kovalev's argument that his career was injured?

The crux of the lawsuit lies with the broken promise (i.e. breach of contract), which led to GBP et al not fulfilling their financial contractual obligation to Main Events... at least until the fight with Hopkins was made.

If Kovalev would have been deprived of his opportunity of a big fight (that subsequently led to his victory over Hopkins), Sergey would have ended up becoming another low paid anonymous lightly regarded WBO champion only appreciated by a very few hard-core fight fans.

This would have had enormously detrimental long-term implications to the Russian's career.

I really don't see anything complicated about this lawsuit.

You should go back and read what was actually filed.

There was no contract between GBP and Main Events. There was no obligation to fulfil. No breach.

Main Events sued GYM for breach, not Golden Boy.

The only way Kathy Duva collects from GBP or Haymon or Showtime or anyone else not GYM (Stevenson's promoter) is if she can show they interfered with a contract already in place (and there was none signed) and their actions caused a financial loss and hurt Kovalev's career.

My point is, even assuming next Saturday was Sergei's first fight since (and no way it would be), if the lawsuit was still ongoing there is no way Duva could show he was injured financially. It is his biggest payday ever. As soon as the bell rings Saturday the lawsuit would be moot.

[WadeGwynn]

I can think of three promoters who're having worse years.

Gary Shaw - Not sure what that whole mess with Roc Nation was, but it certainly did not improve his credibility.

ODLH - Finds himself amid the ruins of his company.

Dan Goossen - RIP.

[sucracristo]

You need to follow the sport more. Haymon rules by proxy, which led to Main Events filing a lawsuit alleging that he contravened the federal Muhammad Ali act, due to him operating as a manager and a promoter. If you want to know what "by proxy" means, look it up.

Haymon didn't even bother to defend the lawsuit.

This question is for anyone:

Why can't a manager (which is basically a "advisor" as it seems Al prefers to advertise himself as) outsource promotional duties without it violating the MAA?

this is why i said al is not a promoter. i have said it before. people on here will have you wandering
down into the weeds with them because they seem to be emotionally invested in this stuff.
they will respond like the problem is with you when there really isn't one word of value in these
novels they write about al haymon being a promoter. boxing is cut throat and the law is very
clear about what managers and promoters do and if al is breaking laws then it would be easy to prove.
al is not doing the same thing as TR and GB. the lamon brewster stuff looked dirty, though, so i'm
definitely not saying al is in boxing for philanthropic reasons.

[caldo2025]

If things go really badly for Bob Arum, he could always teach a class on how The Philippines beat Hitler and saved millions of Jews from the Holocaust when America turned their backs on them. WHAT?!!?? Reason number 20000000000 he needs to go. We wait years for the biggest fight in the world and he uses the platform at the only press conference for the fight to put America down. Hey Bob, if we don't come save the day in WWII and find those death camps, there wouldn't be many Jews left. What a dickhead statement. Go away.

[ReggieDiggs]

If things go really badly for Bob Arum, he could always teach a class on how The Philippines beat Hitler and saved millions of Jews from the Holocaust when America turned their backs on them. WHAT?!!?? Reason number 20000000000 he needs to go. We wait years for the biggest fight in the world and he uses the platform at the only press conference for the fight to put America down. Hey Bob, if we don't come save the day in WWII and find those death camps, there wouldn't be many Jews left. What a dickhead statement. Go away.

lol. I don't think the OP meant Alzheimers when he was talking about Bob having a bad year, but that might be the biggest threat for Bob's year.

I cringed the whole way through that story.

And this is why boxing needs some younger cats involved in every avenue. You can't have grandpa having an "episode" during the biggest event in the history of the sport.

[ReggieDiggs]

Just found this awesome quote with a comparison of Floyd to Hitler lol. He definitely gots a WWII fetish of some sort.

"Don't you understand why the Mayweather/Pacquiao fight can't and won't happen? Listen, I promoted Mayweather for over ten years. The one thing I learned during that period is that Mayweather doesn't like to fight-doesn't want to fight a southpaw. Why? Because his whole style-defensively-is geared for a right-handed fighter. And to compound that, if the southpaw is really fast and moves, that would give Mayweather and his style a lot of trouble and it would really jeopardize Mayweather's record as an undefeated fighter. That's why the fight is not happening. Because-I mean this is almost like before the second world war. You know, Hitler wanted this and Hitler wanted that and if you gave him this then peace would occur. But it was never enough. It was never enough because Hitler's dream was to go to war and conquer all of Europe, if not the world. Now, Mayweather's dream is to stay undefeated. So, whatever you give him, if Manny agreed to fight for nothing, it wouldn't be enough. Don't you understand that?"