Is it the end of the WBA, IBF, WBC and WBO?

[ReggieDiggs]

Although: the way some of the denizens of this board have suddenly raised up a boxing promoter & his selfish machinations as ushering in some sort of halcyon new era for the sport is, frankly, hilarious.

I don't really see anyone saying anything like that. Maybe one of the morons I block did, but you shouldn't listen to the morons cuz...well their morons. I think what most people who are onboard with Haymon are saying is Haymon is attempting to change the game & thru that change some positive things for boxing fans could happen. Not for charity, not out of the goodness of his heart, but to make some money. I think one of the biggest problems with this move for many is there is a institutionalized to prison-like thing going on for some fans.

Fans have gotten so used to the corruption they know, anyone coming into the sport trying to change the corrupt atmosphere, in any small way, that they've grown to love is gonna have a problem with them. Regardless if Al succeeds or fails I don't know how you can root against a guy who's plan is putting respectable fights on national tv & about 6 other channels (I've lost count), who's seemingly trying to take importance away from the abc 4 champions per division setup (this is one of the most underratedly sport damaging & under talked about stupid things happening in boxing, imagine if there were 4 super bowls & 4 different super bowl champs each year how f#cking dumb that would be) & allegedly is looking to end the PPV model of success in boxing (I've heard this said a few times by reporters he supposedly talks to off the record, but its more highly speculative then any other speculative Al sh!t going on, but Al's plan seems to be on a 4 year+ plan so it could be awhile before we know about this part or others).

Mostly it seems like reality-denying wish-fulfilment from people who should know better. As to the likes of "Haymon looks out for the fighters!"--well, I'm sure blind Lamon Brewster & brain-damaged Jermain Taylor were well looked-out for.

One of the most frustrating things when intelligently trying to discuss a subject disagreed upon around here is people bring up a random "bad thing(s)" they felt someone has done or that they definitely did & that is apparently supposed to dismiss any positive thing they could do in the future.

I don't think Al is Boxing Jesus although I've in jest made remarks like that cuz I believe the things he's done already aren't things anyone saw coming & 100% of sane fans woulda said its impossible, no one could or would do it a year before he did it. I don't think Al gots some altruistic mindset here. I also don't think not being perfect from birth til the present disqualifies you from ever doing anything good. Life is a lil more complicated than that, people are more complicated than that. You have a very simplistic, one track thought process if you think that. I do think Al is trying to make a f#ckload of money. Isn't everyone trying to make some money whether enough to pay your bills or a f#ckload? It'd be silly to suggest Al is just in this for the love of boxing like apparently some of you think some or all the current guys are in it for lol.

The biggest problem boxing has had is no one gives enough f#cks about it to take a risk on it. Al seems to have put more money into boxing than I've seen anyone put in it in a small period of time since I've been watching boxing just based on all the time buys he's done & how much it appears he's put into the first national TV show he's done. If you're one of the cats being negative about Al or wishing for his demise I'd say just take a step or two back & watch the brother a lil more before you automatically deem him evil & just spend a lil more time arguing who's the best of the 4 champions while you wait to get more info on what exactly Al is doing here.

[ReggieDiggs]

What Haymon needs to do is buy out the WBC, WBA, WBO and/or IBF, thus uniting the belts into one single entity!

I think if you wanna "take over boxing" you wanna disassociate yourself from the abc orgs at present time. I'm not sure what you'd need to buy them for. Either you can outplay them or you can't. If you outplay them it diminishes their importance in the sport & eventually no one cares about them anyway. If you can't outplay them why would they sell to you. They have a license to print money.

[Datsue]

^^ well, that's a tiny bit more sane, Reggie mate, but again: how is this new set-up different, exactly, from what King did when he got fighters to sign his son as manager whilst he promoted? Were you down with that as well? Can you not see why someone might have reservations about one dude effectively controlling the management & promotion of both sides of a fight?

& are the last two/three years of shite in North American boxing justified by fights like Jacobs-Truax & (let's face it, no-one seems to want to say it) Garcia vs "I'm a drug-cheat & got bombed out by LMM" Peterson?

You & others have shouted down anyone & everyone who dares to even proffer a dissenting opinion. It's taken two pages of me ranting just to get you to concede obvious points.

Another obvious point: I'm not rooting against a guy, I'm rooting against more of the fvcking same but worse, with fighters w/o connections not even getting near the big time unless they bend over twice as hard as they used to. Something the devotees in this new cult of personality seem oblivious to.

[ReggieDiggs]

^^ well, that's a tiny bit more sane, Reggie mate, but again: how is this new set-up different, exactly, from what King did when he got fighters to sign his son as manager whilst he promoted? Were you down with that as well? Can you not see why someone might have reservations about one dude effectively controlling the management & promotion of both sides of a fight?

& are the last two/three years of shite in North American boxing justified by fights like Jacobs-Truax & (let's face it, no-one seems to want to say it) Garcia vs "I'm a drug-cheat & got bombed out by LMM" Peterson?

You & others have shouted down anyone & everyone who dares to even proffer a dissenting opinion. It's taken two pages of me ranting just to get you to concede obvious points.

Another obvious point: I'm not rooting against a guy, I'm rooting against more of the fvcking same but worse, with fighters w/o connections not even getting near the big time unless they bend over twice as hard as they used to. Something the devotees in this new cult of personality seem oblivious to.

Just a tiny bit lol. I appreciate the tiny bit though.

I think most of the promoters around today got as sketchy & imho more sketchy roles than Al gots with anyone. Bob is a promoter, but he seems to tell his guys who they are fighting or his favorite thing seems to be giving them 3 choices. Oscar was on record recently "advising" Saul with all his might not to fight Erislandy. Promoters are doubling as managers often imho. We could go on all day with the management/advisor roles promoters have taken with or without middlemen like Don's stepson or Michael Koncz (who I believe works for Al more than Manny).

I don't see how what Al is doing is the same as that. All Al is doing is outsourcing promotional duties. He's never promoted a fight that I'm aware of. I've seen no law or rule against outsourcing a promotion. And for me taking power out of the promoters hands is HUGE. I think 2nd to abc orgs promoters having all the power they have is one of the most damaging things happening in boxing today. So many fighters have lost years of their career due to shady ass promotional contracts.

And man Imma go crazy if people keep mentioning specific fights that are "bad". Bruh there are so many sh!t fights that happen in boxing picking on one guy is like the resume dick measuring that goes on far too often. You can sh!t on ANYONE'S resume. They shouldn't of did this. They ducked that guy. He scared. He KO'd that guy in 2, obviously he sucked despite him being the #1 legit contender. The topic of sh!t fights is a never ending discussion in our sport where there is no quality control by ANYONE being exercised. Sh!t fights by "this guy" or "that guy" is right there with it. So I'll pass on that conversation that'll be all about who's better at digging up sh!t fights from the past & present cuz who's historical put on the most sh!t fights is a competitive debate.

What points have I conceded? He's a guy. He's seemingly gots some sort of plan. It seems like that plan could have some positive effects on the sport. I think the Haymon haters are making more claims than I'm making.

[Datsue]

What points have I conceded? He's a guy. He's seemingly gots some sort of plan. It seems like that plan could have some positive effects on the sport. I think the Haymon haters are making more claims than I'm making.

& I think some people are swallowing a load of shiny, transparent PR bullshit, wilfully ignoring anything like a fact, & are characterising anyone who raises their voice as a "hater", all things which I find stupid & reductive.

Also, I find it interesting to note that you & others seem to be able to hand-wave the shite fights & the stuff that follows Schaefer around, for instance, yet still won't shut the fvck up about how great this all is & burying genuine criticisms & points under a ton of irrelevant bullshit, just 'cos they're in love with what the PR's selling them.

We shall see.

[ReggieDiggs]

What points have I conceded? He's a guy. He's seemingly gots some sort of plan. It seems like that plan could have some positive effects on the sport. I think the Haymon haters are making more claims than I'm making.

& I think some people are swallowing a load of shiny, transparent PR bullshit, wilfully ignoring anything like a fact, & are characterising anyone who raises their voice as a "hater", all things which I find stupid & reductive.

Also, I find it interesting to note that you & others seem to be able to hand-wave the shite fights & the stuff that follows Schaefer around, for instance, yet still won't shut the fvck up about how great this all is & burying genuine criticisms & points under a ton of irrelevant bullshit, just 'cos they're in love with what the PR's selling them.

We shall see.

There are more Haymon haters than people being rational is all I'm saying. Wasn't claiming you were one of them.

Where am I proclaiming my love for all things Al at? I've went back n forth with Ferg on here about how I believe Al & Richard tried to f#ck over Oscar. Most people take on that whole thing is that Oscar deserved to get f#cked over cuz he had/has an addiction problem.

I just think Al is the best movement the sport has for change going on right now. I'm a AIBA Pro Boxing fan too. Anyone trying to change this clusterf#ck of a game we got going I'm for. I love boxing, but I hate the landscape of the sport & I think most fans do to. If ISIS came on board trying to shake sh!t up just a lil bit I'd be with them too.

I don't really care if any particular group succeeds in flipping the game I just want the game flipped.

[expe]

^^ well, that's a tiny bit more sane, Reggie mate, but again: how is this new set-up different, exactly, from what King did when he got fighters to sign his son as manager whilst he promoted? Were you down with that as well? Can you not see why someone might have reservations about one dude effectively controlling the management & promotion of both sides of a fight?

& are the last two/three years of shite in North American boxing justified by fights like Jacobs-Truax & (let's face it, no-one seems to want to say it) Garcia vs "I'm a drug-cheat & got bombed out by LMM" Peterson?

You & others have shouted down anyone & everyone who dares to even proffer a dissenting opinion. It's taken two pages of me ranting just to get you to concede obvious points.

Another obvious point: I'm not rooting against a guy, I'm rooting against more of the fvcking same but worse, with fighters w/o connections not even getting near the big time unless they bend over twice as hard as they used to. Something the devotees in this new cult of personality seem oblivious to.

Just a tiny bit lol. I appreciate the tiny bit though.

I think most of the promoters around today got as sketchy & imho more sketchy roles than Al gots with anyone. Bob is a promoter, but he seems to tell his guys who they are fighting or his favorite thing seems to be giving them 3 choices. Oscar was on record recently "advising" Saul with all his might not to fight Erislandy. Promoters are doubling as managers often imho. We could go on all day with the management/advisor roles promoters have taken with or without middlemen like Don's stepson or Michael Koncz (who I believe works for Al more than Manny).

I don't see how what Al is doing is the same as that. All Al is doing is outsourcing promotional duties. He's never promoted a fight that I'm aware of. I've seen no law or rule against outsourcing a promotion. And for me taking power out of the promoters hands is HUGE. I think 2nd to abc orgs promoters having all the power they have is one of the most damaging things happening in boxing today. So many fighters have lost years of their career due to shady ass promotional contracts.

And man Imma go crazy if people keep mentioning specific fights that are "bad". Bruh there are so many sh!t fights that happen in boxing picking on one guy is like the resume dick measuring that goes on far too often. You can sh!t on ANYONE'S resume. They shouldn't of did this. They ducked that guy. He scared. He KO'd that guy in 2, obviously he sucked despite him being the #1 legit contender. The topic of sh!t fights is a never ending discussion in our sport where there is no quality control by ANYONE being exercised. Sh!t fights by "this guy" or "that guy" is right there with it. So I'll pass on that conversation that'll be all about who's better at digging up sh!t fights from the past & present cuz who's historical put on the most sh!t fights is a competitive debate.

What points have I conceded? He's a guy. He's seemingly gots some sort of plan. It seems like that plan could have some positive effects on the sport. I think the Haymon haters are making more claims than I'm making.

And Haymon doesn't advise his fighters who to fight? Quillin against Korobov springs to mind, he denied Quillin a career best payday because of his own petty feud with Jay Z. Oscar advising Alvarez not to fight Lara was good advice, Lara isn't a draw, he's hard to look against and there was a real risk that Alvarez would get beaten, it's the sort of fight I'd like to see, but anyone acting in Alvarez's best interests would steer him away from it. A fighter having three choices of opponent is pretty good, most get told who they're fighting and when and that's it, they don't get a say.

He is promoting the shows, just because someone else's name is on the paperwork doesn't mean they're the real promoter. Who puts the fights together, sorts the TV deal? Fighters lose years of their careers because they sign things without really checking what they're signing, the manager has to take some of the blame for that too. Then when the fighter decides they don't like what they signed, they expect to be able to end the contract on their terms at a time of their choosing, it isn't going to happen. If managers did their job properly, got a lawyer in to check the contract, then explained it all to the fighter, allowing them to make a proper decision on whether they're happy with what they're signing. If Quillin's contract with Haymon wouldn't allow him to fight Korobov, he was fucked over by a shady contract.

Well what has he done that's good then? Apart from putting one show on NBC, which isn't really important to me because I'm not in the US, what great fights has Haymon put together? All promoters/managers put together some shocking fights, but the difference is that some also put on some great fights.

[benion]

Oscar advising Alvarez not to fight Lara was good advice, Lara isn't a draw, he's hard to look against and there was a real risk that Alvarez would get beaten,

Apply the same scenario to Al advising LSC not to fight Rigo. Do you think it was good advice?

[benion]

Explain to me, please, how that's qualitatively different than saying "Stevenson/Quillin/Garcia/Klitschko/whomever are chumps for not fighting for Bob Arum, & because of their intractable refusal that's why we don't get good fights?"

Kovalev/Stevenson is the perfect example. Stevenson choose to go with Haymon/Showtime essentially ending any potential fight for the time being. Stevenson was called a ducker, coward ect. Since then we've seen Stevenson earn more money fighting lesser competition and Kovalev earn a paltry $500K for fighting one of the best there every was. I think he only took home $150K after fees. Now Kovalev knows HBO refuses to work with Haymon. If Kovalev signs a contact extension with HBO he's killing any chance for a fight against Stevenson. If you want to say he's doing what's best for him you also have to say that about Stevenson when he signed the Showtime deal.

So, using your new version of logic, Kovalev is the bad guy for fighting, like, decent fighters who aren't useless pudenda, whilst Stevenson is to be applauded for fighting never-weres, retreads & hasbeens? & the guy willing to fight all-comers, we side against them now because they're not getting with the motherfucking programme & ceding total control to Saint Al?

& this also extends to any other fighter on the planet, it's immediately, say, Golovkin's fault that Danny Jacobs is fighting Caleb Truax?

I just like to have all this set out in front of me so I'm sure I'm not making any assumptions here, 'cos it's like the collective IQ has dropped, & for around here, that's saying something.

Where did I say either is a good guy or bad guy? I'm a big fan of both and want to see the fight. Your question was if we'll see those fights. The main reason those fights won't get made us because of HBO's refusal to work with Haymon, its not the other way around. People seem to allow HBO to get away with that. That's like when Mayweather said he refused to work with Arum, but he didn't get a pass. Crawford & Kovalev know full well that HBO will not work with Haymon so if they sign extensions with HBO they're basically saying they don't want to fight any fighter associated with Haymon. I'm not saying they should leave their promoter but they don't have to sign an extension with HBO. Of they choose to because it's the best deal they can get I have no problem with a man doing what's best for him and his family just like Stevenson did when he signed with Haymon.

[ReggieDiggs]

And Haymon doesn't advise his fighters who to fight?

Haymon is a manager/advisor. Thats a managers job to advise his fighters. A promoter isn't supposed to manage their boxers careers. HUGE difference here.

He is promoting the shows, just because someone else's name is on the paperwork doesn't mean they're the real promoter.

This is ridiculous. Of course he isn't promoting fights. Promoting a boxing card is a physical task with various duties not just pieces of paper being giving to a commission. Al isn't doing any of that stuff that I have seen. Sh!t it seems like Al barely leaves his house. He is simply outsourcing the promotional duties like any manager or investor can do. There is no law or rule that says you can't be a manager & investor in boxing. All the conflict of interest sh!t in boxing is about promoters being managers.

Well what has he done that's good then? Apart from putting one show on NBC, which isn't really important to me because I'm not in the US, what great fights has Haymon put together? All promoters/managers put together some shocking fights, but the difference is that some also put on some great fights.

I think the biggest thing he might have done at this point is simply working in the best interest of his fighters so well that he's got the biggest roster of fighters or top fighters ever it would appear. I don't think many promoters are doing anything as simple as that & none are capable of doing it on the scale Al has so far. What he can do in the future is speculation, but I like where he's going in trusting in the sport enough to buy up loads of TV time which I've never heard of anyone doing & ignoring abc belts thus far which is also something I don't recall seeing in boxing.

Its still pretty early in this experiment to really judge what he's done or could do. Like saying how well Usain Bolt looks after 1 second, but a lot of things are looking good at this early stage in the race to me & I think a solid minority of fans who are tired of the status quo of acceptable corruption.

To speculate, cuz its fun, I think the potential upside of having an elite boxing league in boxing (you know like almost every other major sport has an elite league representing their sports regardless of being individual or team oriented sports) is a game changer for the sport & a HUGE thing if it can be done.

And idk that you can just put on "great fights" like you decide to go out to eat. You can put two top guys in the ring together, like he did on his first national PBC show between Keith & Robert, but its pretty much out of your hands if it becomes a great fight. Ask me this at the end of the year when there will be 20+ shows to choose from & surely be a PBC FOTY caliber fight or two.

[expe]

Oscar advising Alvarez not to fight Lara was good advice, Lara isn't a draw, he's hard to look against and there was a real risk that Alvarez would get beaten,

Apply the same scenario to Al advising LSC not to fight Rigo. Do you think it was good advice?

As a fan it wasn't because I'd like to see the fight, but for Santa Cruz, it was, he's not beating Rigo, so there's nothing in the fight for him.

[expe]

Kovalev/Stevenson is the perfect example. Stevenson choose to go with Haymon/Showtime essentially ending any potential fight for the time being. Stevenson was called a ducker, coward ect. Since then we've seen Stevenson earn more money fighting lesser competition and Kovalev earn a paltry $500K for fighting one of the best there every was. I think he only took home $150K after fees. Now Kovalev knows HBO refuses to work with Haymon. If Kovalev signs a contact extension with HBO he's killing any chance for a fight against Stevenson. If you want to say he's doing what's best for him you also have to say that about Stevenson when he signed the Showtime deal.

So, using your new version of logic, Kovalev is the bad guy for fighting, like, decent fighters who aren't useless pudenda, whilst Stevenson is to be applauded for fighting never-weres, retreads & hasbeens? & the guy willing to fight all-comers, we side against them now because they're not getting with the motherfucking programme & ceding total control to Saint Al?

& this also extends to any other fighter on the planet, it's immediately, say, Golovkin's fault that Danny Jacobs is fighting Caleb Truax?

I just like to have all this set out in front of me so I'm sure I'm not making any assumptions here, 'cos it's like the collective IQ has dropped, & for around here, that's saying something.

Where did I say either is a good guy or bad guy? I'm a big fan of both and want to see the fight. Your question was if we'll see those fights. The main reason those fights won't get made us because of HBO's refusal to work with Haymon, its not the other way around. People seem to allow HBO to get away with that. That's like when Mayweather said he refused to work with Arum, but he didn't get a pass. Crawford & Kovalev know full well that HBO will not work with Haymon so if they sign extensions with HBO they're basically saying they don't want to fight any fighter associated with Haymon. I'm not saying they should leave their promoter but they don't have to sign an extension with HBO. Of they choose to because it's the best deal they can get I have no problem with a man doing what's best for him and his family just like Stevenson did when he signed with Haymon.

Why won't HBO work with Haymon? Nothing to do with what he served up when he was working with them?

Doesn't the same apply to any fighter with Haymon then? If they sign a contract with Haymon, are they saying they don't want to fight anyone who fights on HBO?