Jimmy Ellis - How Good

[Ambling Alp II]

He did have an odd career. For all practical purposes, went straight from the middleweight division to the heavyweights. Then wins the tournament to win the vacant WBA title.

I think at first glance, some people look at win/loss record (40-12-1) and don't think he was that good. However, take a look at the 12 losses. 5 were on his way up as a middleweight and he was pretty much thrown to the wolves way too early.
He also had 5 losses at the end of his career when he was past it. His only two other losses were to Ali and Frazier.

He certainly had some few nice wins. Seemed like a decent guy. Not a great fighter, but a very good one.

[elmersalsa]

Jimmy Ellis was nothing to be awed about

[Scypion]

No, I doubt that many people were awed by Jimmy Ellis, but he was a good boxer, good chin despite his KO's by Ali, Frazier, and Shavers (most were KO'd by those guys), good right that could hurt people, and a solid boxer. Let's face it, how many guys were as good as Ali and Frazier? Anyway, he deserved a better fate.

[Scypion]

Jimmy Ellis couldn't handle Joe Frazier, or Muhammad Ali. I think that he would have had trouble handling George Foreman a few years later or Sonny Liston a few years earlier. Other than that though...

Ellis not only beat Chuvalo, Quarry, Bonavena, Leotis Martin, and Johnny Persol, but he also beat some boxers with good records like Tony Doyle, Eddie Dembry, Hubert Hilton, and he beat Billy Daniels, who could be tough.

Jimmy Ellis was not the greatest fighter ever, but how many can say that they were WBA Heavyweight Champion and also beat Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay) as an amateur?

[Scypion]

Jimmy Ellis did not have any favors given to him when he started out as a middleweight. He fought some pretty good middleweights even though he did not have much experience. Even the middleweights that he fought other than the contenders mostly had winning records. His first fight was with a guy that had 28 fights followed by a boxer with16 followed by someone with 25 and a toughie named Wilf Greaves in his 4th fight with 54 bouts (all with winning records).

Anyway, I wish that I could see more of his fights.

[scorpio83]

Jimmy Ellis was a good boxer and even though he might fall short for him getting inducted in the IBHOF, I hope he would eventually get in. Ellis' accomplishment does not lie that will get in the IBHOF, but I don't know when it will happen. If Ken Norton got inducted because of his accomplishments including fighting Ali three times and awarded the WBC Heavyweight title before losing his title in a great fight against Larry Holmes, why not Ellis?

[Scypion]

I agree, although I must admit, Ken Norton was pretty tough.

[dempseyfire]

Ellis actually looks pretty good in the Frazier rematch for the first 3-4 rounds; than he succumbs to the pressure and received a beating.

I've been up close to Holyfield many times . . .the guy's body frame is much bigger than given credit for. He's definitely a natural heavyweight.

[Scypion]

Seeing all of these top 10 and top 20 lists makes me wonder. Where would Jimmy Ellis be on an all-time list? I know that he doesn't make top 10 with guys like Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Louis, Marciano, Tyson, Lewis, Johnson, Dempsey, Jeffries, etc. How about top 20? Top 25?

[yancey]

Seeing all of these top 10 and top 20 lists makes me wonder. Where would Jimmy Ellis be on an all-time list? I know that he doesn't make top 10 with guys like Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Louis, Marciano, Tyson, Lewis, Johnson, Dempsey, Jeffries, etc. How about top 20? Top 25?

Top 20 would be too high for Jimmy.

I would think Jimmy MIGHT be inside the Top 50, though I've never put together a list of that size.


p.s. I listed Ellis and Ingo as a match up topic a few weeks ago, but it did not generate interest. Although Ingo would be the favorite, I think Jimmy would have a decent chance. He could move and had underrated power.

If you ever get to see Ellis-Persol, watch it. Jimmy destroyed the slick Persol in one round on the Ali-Folley undercard. This was the win that really put Ellis on the heavyweight map.

[BoxBuzz]

Hey Yancey, where on Frazier's list would you consider his Ellis wins? #2 & #3?

[Scypion]

Seeing all of these top 10 and top 20 lists makes me wonder. Where would Jimmy Ellis be on an all-time list? I know that he doesn't make top 10 with guys like Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Louis, Marciano, Tyson, Lewis, Johnson, Dempsey, Jeffries, etc. How about top 20? Top 25?

Top 20 would be too high for Jimmy.

I would think Jimmy MIGHT be inside the Top 50, though I've never put together a list of that size.


p.s. I listed Ellis and Ingo as a match up topic a few weeks ago, but it did not generate interest. Although Ingo would be the favorite, I think Jimmy would have a decent chance. He could move and had underrated power.

If you ever get to see Ellis-Persol, watch it. Jimmy destroyed the slick Persol in one round on the Ali-Folley undercard. This was the win that really put Ellis on the heavyweight map.

I think that the Persol fight was what got Ellis into the WBA heavyweight elimination series. Also the fact that Joe Frazier opted not to enter the tournament. Jimmy Ellis was the last seed (8th out of 8) but managed to beat Leotis Martin, Oscar Bonavena, and Jerry Quarry to win the tournament and hence, take the WBA Heavyweight Championship. And yes, I would love to see the Ellis/Persol fight as well as others that do not seem to be out there.

I did respond to the Ingo/Ellis thread. I thought that it would get more responses, because it would have been an interesting match up. I think that Jimmy would have had a good chance too, but he would have to be careful of Ingo's right hand.

I saw a top 50 heavyweight listing someplace once, and I believe that it had Jimmy Ellis in the forties somewhere. However, I maintain that Jimmy was underrated, so he maybe should have been rated higher that that.

Of course there have been a lot of excellent heavyweights. I listed 11 above, but there were also guys like Walcott, Charles, Patterson, Baer, Holmes, Tunney, Fitzsimmons, Lyle, Shavers, Norton, Thomas, Witherspoon, Berbick, Willard, Terrell, Johansson, Moore, Williams, Machen, and others that I can't think of right now. I guess that it is hard to figure where Jimmy Ellis would fit in with all of those guys and other good ones that are not mentioned here.

BTW, Jimmy Ellis was on the undercard on 11 Clay/Ali fights.

[yancey]

Hey Yancey, where on Frazier's list would you consider his Ellis wins? #2 & #3?

The 1970 unification fight was Frazier at his prime, imo. He was devastating that night. Frazier was at his best hunting down and pressuring a slick boxer type and that was basically what he had in Jimmy. Thankfully, Dundee would not send out Ellis for the 5th or he would have taken more needless punishment. In the press conference after the fight, Ellis said he went down only once in the 4th. Dundee quickly corrected him and used that as evidence why he stopped things.

A couple of months later Frazier fractured his ankle in a motorcycle accident and I have always maintained he was slightly less than his best against Ali in '71. Other medical issues such as high blood pressure going into the FOTC were also factors.

The Ellis win was certainly in Joe's top 5 performances.

[Scypion]

Seeing all of these top 10 and top 20 lists makes me wonder. Where would Jimmy Ellis be on an all-time list? I know that he doesn't make top 10 with guys like Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Louis, Marciano, Tyson, Lewis, Johnson, Dempsey, Jeffries, etc. How about top 20? Top 25?

Top 20 would be too high for Jimmy.

I would think Jimmy MIGHT be inside the Top 50, though I've never put together a list of that size.


p.s. I listed Ellis and Ingo as a match up topic a few weeks ago, but it did not generate interest. Although Ingo would be the favorite, I think Jimmy would have a decent chance. He could move and had underrated power.

If you ever get to see Ellis-Persol, watch it. Jimmy destroyed the slick Persol in one round on the Ali-Folley undercard. This was the win that really put Ellis on the heavyweight map.

I think that the Persol fight was what got Ellis into the WBA heavyweight elimination series. Also the fact that Joe Frazier opted not to enter the tournament. Jimmy Ellis was the last seed (8th out of 8) but managed to beat Leotis Martin, Oscar Bonavena, and Jerry Quarry to win the tournament and hence, take the WBA Heavyweight Championship. And yes, I would love to see the Ellis/Persol fight as well as others that do not seem to be out there.

I did respond to the Ingo/Ellis thread. I thought that it would get more responses, because it would have been an interesting match up. I think that Jimmy would have had a good chance too, but he would have to be careful of Ingo's right hand.

I saw a top 50 heavyweight listing someplace once, and I believe that it had Jimmy Ellis in the forties somewhere. However, I maintain that Jimmy was underrated, so he maybe should have been rated higher that that.

Of course there have been a lot of excellent heavyweights. I listed 11 above, but there were also guys like Walcott, Charles, Patterson, Baer, Holmes, Tunney, Fitzsimmons, Lyle, Shavers, Norton, Thomas, Witherspoon, Berbick, Willard, Terrell, Johansson, Moore, Williams, Machen, and others that I can't think of right now. I guess that it is hard to figure where Jimmy Ellis would fit in with all of those guys and other good ones that are not mentioned here.

BTW, Jimmy Ellis was on the undercard on 11 Clay/Ali fights.

In case anyone might be interested, here are the Ellis fights that are on Ali/Clay undercards:

(1) In Jimmy's very first pro fight, Ellis beat Arley Seifer with a TKO in the 3rd round on the undercard of Clay vs Lamar Clark. Clay won (KO2). 4/19/61

(2) Ellis beat Johnny Morris with a split decision in 6 rounds. Clay beat Alonzo Johnson (UD10). 7/22/61

(3) Ellis beat Clarence Riley (TKO2). Clay beat Alex Miteff ((TKO6). 10/7/61

(4) Jimmy Lost to Holly Mims (UD10). Clay beat Willi Besmanoff (TKO7) 11/29/61

(5) Ellis beat Johnny Halifihi ((KO1). Clay beat Henry Cooper (TKO5). 6/18/63

(6) Ellis beat Joe Blackwood (KO1). Ali beat Sonny Liston (KO1) 5/25/65

(7) Ellis beat Hubert Hilton (PTS8). Ali beat George Chuvalo (UD15). 3/29/66

(8) Ellis beat Leweni Waqa (KO1). Ali beat Henry Cooper (TKO6). 5/21/66

(9) Ellis beat Billy Daniels (PTS6). Ali beat Karl Mildenberger (TKO12). 9/10/66

(10) Ellis beat Tommy "Hurricane" Sims (KO1). Ali beat Cleveland Williams (TKO3). 11/14/66

(11) Ellis beat Johnny Persol (KO1). Ali beat Zora Folley (KO7). 3/22/67

I'll bet that those were good times for Jimmy Ellis, getting to travel to London a couple of times (Henry Cooper) and to Germany (Karl Mildenberger) with his friend Clay/Ali from Louisville. Once Jimmy Ellis entered the WBA Heavyweight Tournament, then there were no more undercards for him. I think that Ali liked having an old friend (Ellis) with him for some of his fights as well.

Jimmy Ellis and Muhammad Ali had 3 exhibition bouts in 1965 in San Juan, P.R., Gothenburg, Sweden, and London, England. That was probably a lot of fun as well for the fighters, as they made some easy money. I wouldn't mind seeing films of those.

[yancey]

All those undercard fights make sense, as Ellis was a sparring partner for Ali in many of his camps leading up to fights.

Might as well let the sparring partner make some additional cash by getting on the card.

Makes even more sense when they shared the same trainer in Dundee.

[Scypion]

Good points. Actually, Jimmy Ellis fought on some of Clay/Ali's undercards before he was with Dundee. So I think that Muhammad had something to do with Ellis being on his undercards when Jimmy fought as a middleweight and wasn't with Angelo yet. I also think that Ali had some input to Dundee taking on Ellis as trainer and manager in 1965.