Chuvalo vs. Cooper: what if?

[writehooks]

It's no secret that 'Ammerin 'Enery wanted no part of the rugged Canadian champ -- even admitting it in his autobiography -- and for years ducked Chuvalo's efforts to fight for the Commonwealth crown, including a very generous offer to meet in Toronto in 1967 (Canada's centennial year). What's your take on the result, had they met at that time??

[bennie]

It's a difficult question. Both men were world class but in the lower echelons of world class. Chuvalo pulled out a left hook from nowhere to stop Jerry Quarry but otherwise he tended to lose to the elite, although he was never off his feet. Cooper also lost to the top men and is best remembered for dropping Cassius Clay and for dominating the domestic scene. I would label Cooper-Chuvalo pick 'em, with home advantage probably separating them, so it all depends on where the fight was staged.

[Controversial]

I think Chulvalo would have won by stoppage. He had a good weight advantage, a great chin and could whack too. I think he would've worn Cooper down and stopped him in the later rounds.

[misterpunch]

agree

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Chuvalo would have stopped him in around 12 - even though neither of them were top drawer, Chuvalo lost to top tier men and Cooper lost to some pretty ordinary men throughout his career.

It is a shame the empire board didn't strip Cooper of his title to give Chuvalo a shot - Cooper seemed unabashed about ducking Chuvalo, I don't think 'Enry would have fancied his own chances against big George and I don't blame him.

[Graham Houston]

When I interviewed Chuvalo several years ago I asked him about a proposed Henry Cooper fight. George told me that when he was training in London, Cooper's manager, Jim Wicks, was in the gym, and George said he asked Wicks directly if a fight with Cooper could be made. I don't have the exact quote in front of me right now, but Chuvalo went into a passable imitation of a cockney accent in giving me Wicks' answer, which was to the effect: "George, I wouldn't let 'Enry be in the same room as you, let alone the same ring."

[bigjack]

Wise move there i think.

[orbtastic]

Didn't Wicks make the same comment about Liston? I can't remember his nickname but it had benevolent overtones and it's said he looked after Henry [by guiding him away from matches like that].

[Graham Houston]

Yep, Wicks made it very clear indeed that he would never let Cooper get in the ring with Liston. It was different with Ali. Wicks knew that Cooper would likely get outboxed by Ali, but he knew Henry wouldn't get bludgeoned.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

It's no secret that 'Ammerin 'Enery wanted no part of the rugged Canadian champ -- even admitting it in his autobiography -- and for years ducked Chuvalo's efforts to fight for the Commonwealth crown, including a very generous offer to meet in Toronto in 1967 (Canada's centennial year). What's your take on the result, had they met at that time??

If your quote is to be believed and i'm not judging what the truth is to it then its probably a no brainer
Ammerin Enery had no chance.

[writehooks]

Graham Houston's quote is almost right on: "When I interviewed Chuvalo several years ago I asked him about a proposed Henry Cooper fight. George told me that when he was training in London, Cooper's manager, Jim Wicks, was in the gym, and George said he asked Wicks directly if a fight with Cooper could be made. I don't have the exact quote in front of me right now, but Chuvalo went into a passable imitation of a cockney accent in giving me Wicks' answer, which was to the effect: "George, I wouldn't let 'Enry be in the same room as you, let alone the same ring."

According to Chuvalo, Wicks' actual response, when George asked the manager when he'd let Cooper take the fight, was: "George, he doesn't even want to meet you socially..."

[dalcumly]

Well, I've got rose tinted glasses, and that might effect my judgement. But one thing I learned was that Cooper wasn't 6' 1 " as recorded in the record books, he was much nearer 6'3", and in the mid 60's, as we know, could punch like a mule. Moreover, when he hurt an opponent he wasn't the nice man people recognised outside the ring.
Chuvalo was virtually unstoppable, but Henry was also a clever boxer. By the end of the fight Chuvalo's face would resemble a pound of mince, and he wouldn't know if he was bored, screwed, or counter sunk.

Jim Wicks was a renowned gambler, and nobody ever knew exactly what he was thinking. He may well have said those things in relation to Liston and Chuvalo, but were they truthful?

There's one thing I can be sure about, Henry himself would have taken on Chuvalo -providing the money was right.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Well, I've got rose tinted glasses, and that might effect my judgement. But one thing I learned was that Cooper wasn't 6' 1 " as recorded in the record books, he was much nearer 6'3", and in the mid 60's, as we know, could punch like a mule. Moreover, when he hurt an opponent he wasn't the nice man people recognised outside the ring.
Chuvalo was virtually unstoppable, but Henry was also a clever boxer. By the end of the fight Chuvalo's face would resemble a pound of mince, and he wouldn't know if he was bored, screwed, or counter sunk.

Jim Wicks was a renowned gambler, and nobody ever knew exactly what he was thinking. He may well have said those things in relation to Liston and Chuvalo, but were they truthful?

There's one thing I can be sure about, Henry himself would have taken on Chuvalo -providing the money was right.

Cooper said he wouldn't have taken on Chuvalo and quoted Wicks (in his autobiography - the 1971 one) for his reasons why.

He did say however, that he was given a paltry offer to fight Chuvalo in Toronto so he might have been up for a meeting if a future pension
was involved. Either way, he wouldn't have kept out of the way of Chuvalo for 15 rounds and he never publicly fancied a meeting with Chuvalo - he always echoed Wicks views - even in his autobiographies.

[orbtastic]

I was looking at the tale of the tape for Cooper/Clay yesterday and was surprised to see they weren't hugely dissimilar in terms of raw stats, age aside.

[Cap]

In a 15 round fight in Toronto Chuvalo eventually gets to Cooper after wearing him down with body punches and bloodies him up enough in the later rounds that they stop it. If the fight takes place in England and Cooper manages to stay conscious for the final bell, regardless of his condition, he gets the decision, probably by a quarter point. There's also the very likely scenario that Chuvalo gets disqualified for hitting Cooper to the body. In those days British boxing seemed to frown on body punching.

[Controversial]

I was looking at the tale of the tape for Cooper/Clay yesterday and was surprised to see they weren't hugely dissimilar in terms of raw stats, age aside.

Cooper claimed he only weighed 12st 10lb in the rematch and wore weights to appear heavier

[JC]

I was looking at the tale of the tape for Cooper/Clay yesterday and was surprised to see they weren't hugely dissimilar in terms of raw stats, age aside.

On the stats that matter most (reach and weight) he's giving away a bit.

[Cap]

Look at Ali. 6' 3" and 204 pounds! He's a cruiserweight now. Anyone doubt he'd whip these mastodons lumbering around now disguised as boxers?