who holds the record ?

[littlepug]

Who holds the record for most time lapsed between a first unsuccessful attempt at a world title and an eventual world title win ? I could only think of 2 Brits which were Johnny nelson and frank Bruno who both won a world title 9 years after first challenging for one.

[HomicideHenry]

I'm supposing you are meaning fighters under the MQ rules... rather than in the entire scope of boxing history...

Because if it was the entire scope... the question becomes harder to answer... but since people accept MQ rules as 'real' boxing... I would say the record holder in professional gloved boxing (under these circumstances)... could only be determined by weight class, breaking it down systematically... and only accepting the RING belt (or unified belts) as legit champions.

Gaps between unsuccessful and successful title victories...

Heavyweight

James J. Braddock (1929-1935)
-Loughran in 1929, Baer in 1935

Cruserweight

James 'Lights Out' Toney (1995-2003)
-Roy Jones in 1995, Jirov in 2003


(May finish this later when have more time, but anyone else willing to help, feel free)

[dr_devious]

Toney didn't fight Jones at cruiserweight, and it was 1994 when they fought at super middle.

In terms of Brits Richie Woodhall lost a MW title bout against Keith Holmes in his first shot at a world title and later won a super middleweight title. Darren Barker lost his first 2 middleweight title shots against Sturm and Martinez and then beat Geale in his third attempt.

[HyacinthusTurnipseed]

First thing I thought of was Guillermo Jones: drew with Laurent Boudouini on 13th Feb 1998 for the WBA 154 title, lost a second shot on 30th May, drew with Johnny Nelson on 23rd November 2002 for the WBO cruiserweight title, then finally beat Firat Arslan on 27th September 2008 for the WBA cruiserweight title. That's ten years, seven months and fourteen days (unless I've miscounted).

That is, if you mean guys who were always unsuccessful until they eventually won, otherwise the record surely belongs to George Foreman at over twenty years between vs. Ali and vs. Moorer.

[Tomasino]

I'm supposing you are meaning fighters under the MQ rules... rather than in the entire scope of boxing history...

Because if it was the entire scope... the question becomes harder to answer... but since people accept MQ rules as 'real' boxing... I would say the record holder in professional gloved boxing (under these circumstances)... could only be determined by weight class, breaking it down systematically... and only accepting the RING belt (or unified belts) as legit champions.

Gaps between unsuccessful and successful title victories...

Heavyweight

James J. Braddock (1929-1935)
-Loughran in 1929, Baer in 1935

Cruserweight

James 'Lights Out' Toney (1995-2003)
-Roy Jones in 1995, Jirov in 2003


(May finish this later when have more time, but anyone else willing to help, feel free)

Why did you feel the need to clarify "MQ Rules"? Was there fighters in particular from London Prize rules that had many years between title bouts? Were there any universally recognised titles under other rules?

[littlepug]

First thing I thought of was Guillermo Jones: drew with Laurent Boudouini on 13th Feb 1998 for the WBA 154 title, lost a second shot on 30th May, drew with Johnny Nelson on 23rd November 2002 for the WBO cruiserweight title, then finally beat Firat Arslan on 27th September 2008 for the WBA cruiserweight title. That's ten years, seven months and fourteen days (unless I've miscounted).

That is, if you mean guys who were always unsuccessful until they eventually won, otherwise the record surely belongs to George Foreman at over twenty years between vs. Ali and vs. Moorer.

thats the idea mate so ten years to beat

[littlepug]

I'm supposing you are meaning fighters under the MQ rules... rather than in the entire scope of boxing history...

Because if it was the entire scope... the question becomes harder to answer... but since people accept MQ rules as 'real' boxing... I would say the record holder in professional gloved boxing (under these circumstances)... could only be determined by weight class, breaking it down systematically... and only accepting the RING belt (or unified belts) as legit champions.

Gaps between unsuccessful and successful title victories...

Heavyweight

James J. Braddock (1929-1935)
-Loughran in 1929, Baer in 1935

Cruserweight

James 'Lights Out' Toney (1995-2003)
-Roy Jones in 1995, Jirov in 2003


(May finish this later when have more time, but anyone else willing to help, feel free)

toney dont qualify cos his first attempt was succesful

[Petu v.d. Pajm]

Leavander Johnson (R.I.P) had to wait for 10 years, 10 months and 11 days to wear a world championship belt since losing his 1st challenge vs. Miguel Angel Gonzalezin August 1994. He eventually won the title in June 2005 over Stefano Zoff to succumb to a ring fatality in his 1st defence 3 months later.

Some others with a long wait from 1st challenge to eventually become champions :

German Torres (7 years, 3 months & 27 days from challenging Hilario Zapata to winning a vacant title over Soon-Jung Kang)
Seung-Hoon Lee (6 years, 11 months and 6 days from challenging Rafael Oroño to winning a title over P.Muangsurin)
Junior Witter (6 years, 2 months & 22 days from challenging Zab Judah to beating DeMarcus Corley)
Thulani Malinga (7 years, 1 month & g days from challenging Graciano Rocchigiani to beating Nigel Benn)
Fulgencio Obelmejias (7 years, 4 months & 6 days from challenging Hagler 1st time to beating Chong-Pal Park for a title)
Harold Johnson (minimum of 6½ years - depends which fight one determines as the one he becomes a world champion)

[Petu v.d. Pajm]

Frank Bruno - 9 years, 1 month & 14 days (from Witherspoon to McCall)

[littlepug]

Good stuff PETU

[Bundana]

Puerto Rican flyweight Jose Lopez... 12 years, 9 months, 27 days (1996-2009)

[littlepug]

Puerto Rican flyweight Jose Lopez... 12 years, 9 months, 27 days (1996-2009)

And on his fifth attempt no less !

[Ambling Alp II]

Puerto Rican flyweight Jose Lopez... 12 years, 9 months, 27 days (1996-2009)

That is a great catch bundana!
There is really three more days because of leap years. How could you miss that?
So it should be 12 years, 9 months, and 30 days. Or does that count as 10 months?

Anyway, that almost has to be the record.

[Bundana]

Puerto Rican flyweight Jose Lopez... 12 years, 9 months, 27 days (1996-2009)

That is a great catch bundana!
There is really three more days because of leap years. How could you miss that?
So it should be 12 years, 9 months, and 30 days. Or does that count as 10 months?

Anyway, that almost has to be the record.

You know, I never thought of that... but I do believe you're right! 12 years and 10 months it is then.

[HomicideHenry]

Specifics.... Toney was unsuccessful in his bid for a title @ SMW/LHW against Jones.... and the next time he was successful at winning at world title was against Jirov... you didn't specify it had to be in the same weight class...

Why did you feel the need to clarify "MQ Rules"? Was there fighters in particular from London Prize rules that had many years between title bouts? Were there any universally recognised titles under other rules?

1. Because boxing had existed since the Ancient Egyptians & Greeks, and the MQ rules was invented in 1865 and wasn't fully utilized until 1892 with Sullivan-Corbett, although Mr. Sullivan fought mostly with gloves on. So for 123 years, the MQ rules have been 'boxing'. But prior to that, there is some 5,000 years of history.

2. The London Prize Ring rules era often has fighters who didn't compete from time to time, only to return years later. Or it could be a simple matter of bad record keeping--- Paddy Ryan, for example, was known as the champion of the Erie Canal and yet there is no record of fights from that time in his life. So one has to think logically and weed out rumors/myths from facts.

3. Until the Mace/Allen fight which unified the American & British titles, it was often figured that the British crown was THE premiere title in all of boxing--- so in essence, the British title was THE world title prior to Allen/Mace. The American title prior to that match was considered to be a 'colonist' title, and probably would be considered something of an alphabet belt today. Then of course you also had regional champions, and national champions--- and these types were considered the contenders to the American and British champions.

You must remember that prior to John L. Sullivan, no one truly ever challenged and conquered their own nation, let alone the world. It was just a select few men who came forward to challenge the champions, and they were from neighboring towns and cities. Mace, Allen, Coburn, Heenan, and Sullivan (more or less) were the first to really travel the nation and go abroad and around the world in search of challengers. Sullivan, though, was so hated and dispised by the mainstream press (National Police Gazette) that he single handedly was the force behind promoters searching the globe for challengers to defeat him.

Prior to this, it was ex-champions or relative newcomers who made some noise on the Eastern seaboard or some unknown Englishman would come over and try their hand--- but those fights were few and far between. Mind you, before Sullivan boxing was a business considered 'lower than rat baiting' and there was no real money to be made in it. The fact that Sullivan amassed over a million dollars in his lifetime from boxing and boxing related materials, mediums, etc. shows that the business truly started with him.

[littlepug]

Specifics.... Toney was unsuccessful in his bid for a title @ SMW/LHW against Jones.... and the next time he was successful at winning at world title was against Jirov... you didn't specify it had to be in the same weight class...

Why did you feel the need to clarify "MQ Rules"? Was there fighters in particular from London Prize rules that had many years between title bouts? Were there any universally recognised titles under other rules?

1. Because boxing had existed since the Ancient Egyptians & Greeks, and the MQ rules was invented in 1865 and wasn't fully utilized until 1892 with Sullivan-Corbett, although Mr. Sullivan fought mostly with gloves on. So for 123 years, the MQ rules have been 'boxing'. But prior to that, there is some 5,000 years of history.

2. The London Prize Ring rules era often has fighters who didn't compete from time to time, only to return years later. Or it could be a simple matter of bad record keeping--- Paddy Ryan, for example, was known as the champion of the Erie Canal and yet there is no record of fights from that time in his life. So one has to think logically and weed out rumors/myths from facts.

3. Until the Mace/Allen fight which unified the American & British titles, it was often figured that the British crown was THE premiere title in all of boxing--- so in essence, the British title was THE world title prior to Allen/Mace. The American title prior to that match was considered to be a 'colonist' title, and probably would be considered something of an alphabet belt today. Then of course you also had regional champions, and national champions--- and these types were considered the contenders to the American and British champions.

You must remember that prior to John L. Sullivan, no one truly ever challenged and conquered their own nation, let alone the world. It was just a select few men who came forward to challenge the champions, and they were from neighboring towns and cities. Mace, Allen, Coburn, Heenan, and Sullivan (more or less) were the first to really travel the nation and go abroad and around the world in search of challengers. Sullivan, though, was so hated and dispised by the mainstream press (National Police Gazette) that he single handedly was the force behind promoters searching the globe for challengers to defeat him.

Prior to this, it was ex-champions or relative newcomers who made some noise on the Eastern seaboard or some unknown Englishman would come over and try their hand--- but those fights were few and far between. Mind you, before Sullivan boxing was a business considered 'lower than rat baiting' and there was no real money to be made in it. The fact that Sullivan amassed over a million dollars in his lifetime from boxing and boxing related materials, mediums, etc. shows that the business truly started with him.

It don't have to be in same weight class the boxer just has to have failed in his first attempt at a world title and Toney won his first against Nunn so don't qualify

[Tomasino]

Specifics.... Toney was unsuccessful in his bid for a title @ SMW/LHW against Jones.... and the next time he was successful at winning at world title was against Jirov... you didn't specify it had to be in the same weight class...

Why did you feel the need to clarify "MQ Rules"? Was there fighters in particular from London Prize rules that had many years between title bouts? Were there any universally recognised titles under other rules?

1. Because boxing had existed since the Ancient Egyptians & Greeks, and the MQ rules was invented in 1865 and wasn't fully utilized until 1892 with Sullivan-Corbett, although Mr. Sullivan fought mostly with gloves on. So for 123 years, the MQ rules have been 'boxing'. But prior to that, there is some 5,000 years of history.

2. The London Prize Ring rules era often has fighters who didn't compete from time to time, only to return years later. Or it could be a simple matter of bad record keeping--- Paddy Ryan, for example, was known as the champion of the Erie Canal and yet there is no record of fights from that time in his life. So one has to think logically and weed out rumors/myths from facts.

3. Until the Mace/Allen fight which unified the American & British titles, it was often figured that the British crown was THE premiere title in all of boxing--- so in essence, the British title was THE world title prior to Allen/Mace. The American title prior to that match was considered to be a 'colonist' title, and probably would be considered something of an alphabet belt today. Then of course you also had regional champions, and national champions--- and these types were considered the contenders to the American and British champions.

You must remember that prior to John L. Sullivan, no one truly ever challenged and conquered their own nation, let alone the world. It was just a select few men who came forward to challenge the champions, and they were from neighboring towns and cities. Mace, Allen, Coburn, Heenan, and Sullivan (more or less) were the first to really travel the nation and go abroad and around the world in search of challengers. Sullivan, though, was so hated and dispised by the mainstream press (National Police Gazette) that he single handedly was the force behind promoters searching the globe for challengers to defeat him.

Prior to this, it was ex-champions or relative newcomers who made some noise on the Eastern seaboard or some unknown Englishman would come over and try their hand--- but those fights were few and far between. Mind you, before Sullivan boxing was a business considered 'lower than rat baiting' and there was no real money to be made in it. The fact that Sullivan amassed over a million dollars in his lifetime from boxing and boxing related materials, mediums, etc. shows that the business truly started with him.

You've just illustrated my point. Boxing is MQ rules, this 5000 year history stuff is BS. We are talking boxing world champions here. Not Ancient Pugilism.

[orbtastic]

Toney was defending against Jones anyway, having given Barkley a humongous beatdown.

[HomicideHenry]

You've just illustrated my point. Boxing is MQ rules, this 5000 year history stuff is BS. We are talking boxing world champions here. Not Ancient Pugilism.

The FACT of the matter is boxing has been around for 5,000 years--- are we to ignore all those champions, because we focus on 123 years of what the old timers called 'pillow fighting'?

[Tomasino]

You've just illustrated my point. Boxing is MQ rules, this 5000 year history stuff is BS. We are talking boxing world champions here. Not Ancient Pugilism.

The FACT of the matter is boxing has been around for 5,000 years--- are we to ignore all those champions, because we focus on 123 years of what the old timers called 'pillow fighting'?

I knew this had something to do with your fascination with BKB

[HomicideHenry]

Actually, prior to the MQ rules, gloves did exist and were used from time to time--- in those days it was customary for both parties to mutually agree on the rules, including whether to fight bare handed, with hand wraps, with skin tight gloves, or gloves with some padding. And no--- this has nothing to do with my "fascination with BKB", but matters of fact. Who holds the record for time between failed title shots and successful ones--- who knows, cus there is so much history to dive into. I just find it very vague, and all around disappointing that only a small number of people will even give any credit or respect to the time period prior to MQ rules being fully adopted and to all those who were champions, contenders, etc. and the fact that so many have so little knowledge about all around history is rather sad (for me) as a fan and self-learned history buff on the business.

[Ambling Alp II]

It's fine if you are interested in pre-Marquess of Queensbury Boxing. However, don't expect other to people to care. Yes "modern" boxing evolved from the London Prize Rules and it's predecessors, but it was vastly different; and most modern boxing fans have no interest in it.
And going back to ancient times, they are so far different you simply can't make reasonable comparisons.

Lets say you are having a baseball discussion about who was the best hitter. You would not expect people to be talking "rounders" which is what baseball evolved from.

[Tomasino]

Actually, prior to the MQ rules, gloves did exist and were used from time to time--- in those days it was customary for both parties to mutually agree on the rules, including whether to fight bare handed, with hand wraps, with skin tight gloves, or gloves with some padding. And no--- this has nothing to do with my "fascination with BKB", but matters of fact. Who holds the record for time between failed title shots and successful ones--- who knows, cus there is so much history to dive into. I just find it very vague, and all around disappointing that only a small number of people will even give any credit or respect to the time period prior to MQ rules being fully adopted and to all those who were champions, contenders, etc. and the fact that so many have so little knowledge about all around history is rather sad (for me) as a fan and self-learned history buff on the business.

You are just a font of knowledge Henry. Thank you for the education. Your examples were crap BTW.