herol graham v nigel benn

[Controversial]

I'm not saying Kalambay wasn't good; he was. It's more McCallum, ATG, and Herol only lost due to a point deduction. Jackson; knocked out, but by maybe the hardest hitting middle of all time whilst on the verge of a dominant win. Grant, he just didn't want to be there, and Brewer he was plain old, and still came closed. Kalambay he was in his prime, up against a tricky customer, and failed to adapt. Hard to make an excuse for it.

Sorry you've lost me, hard to make an excuse for what?

[witherspoon]

If I remember correctly, Herol's first fight with Kalambay was his first fight after splitting with Brendan Ingle and his training camp was a complete disaster. I know, fighters and excuses. But seeing how handily he handled Kalambay in the rematch, I gotta give him the benefit of the doubt.

[palooka]

The first bout with Sumbu, Herol went out to lead and walked to a counterpuncher. I think I remember Barney Eastwood wanted him to be more aggressive - it was awful, I can remember watching with my mum and dad and we were so sad, it really was a shame, Herol was brilliant at what he did and to change his style so late in the day seemed like vandalism.

[Counter-puncher]

If I remember correctly, Herol's first fight with Kalambay was his first fight after splitting with Brendan Ingle and his training camp was a complete disaster. I know, fighters and excuses. But seeing how handily he handled Kalambay in the rematch, I gotta give him the benefit of the doubt.

he lost the second fight to kalambay too?

[Noxy]

The first bout with Sumbu, Herol went out to lead and walked to a counterpuncher. I think I remember Barney Eastwood wanted him to be more aggressive - it was awful, I can remember watching with my mum and dad and we were so sad, it really was a shame, Herol was brilliant at what he did and to change his style so late in the day seemed like vandalism.

Yep, I absolutely agree. I remember before the fight BJ saying they wanted more aggression from Herol, I wasn't convinced at the time either.

[Switch hitter]

If I remember correctly, Herol's first fight with Kalambay was his first fight after splitting with Brendan Ingle and his training camp was a complete disaster. I know, fighters and excuses. But seeing how handily he handled Kalambay in the rematch, I gotta give him the benefit of the doubt.

he lost the second fight to kalambay too?[/quote

He put Kalambay down twice in the 2nd and won by about 4/5 rounds but it was a hometown decision for Kalambay.....the worst thing was the ref held Herols hand up in confusion then lifted Kalambays when they where announcing the decision

[Arbachakov]

Kalambay was past it and had become very inconsistent from fight to fight by that rematch.He had become a really slow starter, was starting to unravel in terms of offensive sharpness and was losing his reflexes.His only good performance around this time was the Collins fight, where he rolled back the years defensively.

Graham was past-prime too and had lost a lot of durability after the jackson KO(Kalambay had him rocked 5-6 times, more or less every 2nd or 3rd time he landed a right hand flush) and didn't have his prime reflexes either, but he had maintained his timing and offensive precision better.

That was a brutal, great fight btw a classic war between two aging fighters.Not a comfortable win for Graham at all, he took serious punishment and it more or less finished what he had left for the Grant loss afterward.He probably did deserve the decision with those two early knockdowns though, and had points unjustly taken off.

I wouldn't take credit away for Kalambay for his first win over Graham when they were both prime.He was the superior ring-general and technician, which showed.Sure Graham started over-aggressive thinking Kalambay was a chump, but he had time to adapt and mostly failed, then when he did try and fight off the back foot for a bit later on, Kalambay walked him down, countered and made him miss efficiently.Watch both fight against McCallum and it's clear Kalambay had a lot more chops technically and at least as much natural talent.Graham was more of a rough diamond that never had quite the quality of trainer to round out his Ali influences with some beneficial technically sound habits that didn't hamper that natural style.

[cfang]

I do think Graham is overated on these forums. It's always about how he should have beaten one fighter or almost beat another. Look at his record and tell me his best win? Rod Douglas? Mark Kaylor? British and european level guys. He never beat one top quality, world champion level fighter. Yes he fought well against top guys but never actually beat any of them.

Benn beat a few and was class above in my view.

[Arbachakov]

I do think Graham is overated on these forums. It's always about how he should have beaten one fighter or almost beat another. Look at his record and tell me his best win? Rod Douglas? Mark Kaylor? British and european level guys. He never beat one top quality, world champion level fighter. Yes he fought well against top guys but never actually beat any of them.

Benn beat a few and was class above in my view.

Graham didn't get a lot of opportunities though, being a HAgler era middle without major backing behind him until about 85 when he signed with Eastwood.Sibson avoided him and he couldn't secure fights with the top American based contenders like Hamsho.

Still he beat a faded Kalule, sanderline Williams(when he was a contender not a journeyman), Lindell holmes and Kaylor before the Kalambay loss.He did his best with who he could get in the ring with him.

Benn came through in a more open division and was able to pick and choose more, with the WBO now in existence.The single win he has on his ledger that outstrips any of Graham's is the controversial G-Man fight.Not really a big difference in quality of wins between them tbh.The faded kalambay that Graham should have got the nod over was still a better fighter than barkley too.

[SamWise72]

He beat Mike McCallum, a point deduction excepted.

[Broomhall]

I do think Graham is overated on these forums. It's always about how he should have beaten one fighter or almost beat another. Look at his record and tell me his best win? Rod Douglas? Mark Kaylor? British and european level guys. He never beat one top quality, world champion level fighter. Yes he fought well against top guys but never actually beat any of them.

Benn beat a few and was class above in my view.

Graham didn't get a lot of opportunities though, being a HAgler era middle without major backing behind him until about 85 when he signed with Eastwood.Sibson avoided him and he couldn't secure fights with the top American based contenders like Hamsho.

Still he beat a faded Kalule, sanderline Williams(when he was a contender not a journeyman), Lindell holmes and Kaylor before the Kalambay loss.He did his best with who he could get in the ring with him.

Benn came through in a more open division and was able to pick and choose more, with the WBO now in existence.The single win he has on his ledger that outstrips any of Graham's is the controversial G-Man fight.Not really a big difference in quality of wins between them tbh.The faded kalambay that Graham should have got the nod over was still a better fighter than barkley too.

Whilst I think Graham beats Benn hands down, Benn had major marketability, whilst Herols quiet nature and southpaw style wasnt such a turn on. Benn also got a big build up via ITV due to his exciting style, so a lot comes down to what boxing is and that is the entertainment industry. Benn got his shots not just because of the WBO but because he could get TV backing and fill stadiums.

[SamWise72]

Also, and this really ought not to be overlooked, he got his shot against WILLIE DEWITT.

[Controversial]

Also, and this really ought not to be overlooked, he got his shot against WILLIE DEWITT.

Doug Dewitt

[Controversial]

He beat Mike McCallum, a point deduction excepted.

Without the point deduction the scorecards would've been as below, a draw instead of a SD loss.

114-118 Graham
117-116 McCallum
115-115 Draw

[Counter-puncher]

Kalambay was past it and had become very inconsistent from fight to fight by that rematch.He had become a really slow starter, was starting to unravel in terms of offensive sharpness and was losing his reflexes.His only good performance around this time was the Collins fight, where he rolled back the years defensively.

Graham was past-prime too and had lost a lot of durability after the jackson KO(Kalambay had him rocked 5-6 times, more or less every 2nd or 3rd time he landed a right hand flush) and didn't have his prime reflexes either, but he had maintained his timing and offensive precision better.

That was a brutal, great fight btw a classic war between two aging fighters.Not a comfortable win for Graham at all, he took serious punishment and it more or less finished what he had left for the Grant loss afterward.He probably did deserve the decision with those two early knockdowns though, and had points unjustly taken off.

I wouldn't take credit away for Kalambay for his first win over Graham when they were both prime.He was the superior ring-general and technician, which showed.Sure Graham started over-aggressive thinking Kalambay was a chump, but he had time to adapt and mostly failed, then when he did try and fight off the back foot for a bit later on, Kalambay walked him down, countered and made him miss efficiently.Watch both fight against McCallum and it's clear Kalambay had a lot more chops technically and at least as much natural talent.Graham was more of a rough diamond that never had quite the quality of trainer to round out his Ali influences with some beneficial technically sound habits that didn't hamper that natural style.

good post IMO, especially the frequency with which kalumbay landed the right hand. it was the first fight, wasn't it, when kalumbay had Graham on queer street with a right hand just before the bell?

[palooka]

Herol was sent out to win the final round and went straight to Kalambay; he was all over the place and I remember the dreadful feeling that he'd get stopped.

[Switch hitter]

Then dropped Kalambay 2 twice in the rematch to get robbed....

[palooka]

Then dropped Kalambay 2 twice in the rematch to get robbed....

I remember reading the Boxing News report and they made it clear Herol boxed very well and deserved the decision. Sumbu was a top class boxer but Herol was better. Damn Eastwood and all the managerial arguments that ruined all that patience and hard work.

[SamWise72]

Also, and this really ought not to be overlooked, he got his shot against WILLIE DEWITT.

Potato. potato.

[Switch hitter]

Then dropped Kalambay 2 twice in the rematch to get robbed....

I remember reading the Boxing News report and they made it clear Herol boxed very well and deserved the decision. Sumbu was a top class boxer but Herol was better. Damn Eastwood and all the managerial arguments that ruined all that patience and hard work.

I remember watching it live on Eurosport and Steve Holdsworth going off is head about the decision

[Arbachakov]

Then dropped Kalambay 2 twice in the rematch to get robbed....

I remember reading the Boxing News report and they made it clear Herol boxed very well and deserved the decision. Sumbu was a top class boxer but Herol was better. Damn Eastwood and all the managerial arguments that ruined all that patience and hard work.

That was a fight with two old inconsistent past prime fighters, not really that relevant in deciding who was better imo.Graham took a beating that finished what he had left post-jackson, but took advantage of Kalambay's by then painfully slow starts to build up a lead with knockdowns that should have got him a decision.But if they had fought a third time right after it, Graham would have probably been knocked out and dominated as kalambay had one solid performance left in him after it and was able to roll back the years against Collins where Graham was finished and couldn't even beat a domestic fighter like Grant.


I'd like to have seen them fight more than once in the late 80s when both were prime(same with Graham and McCallum, should have been more than one fight there), but overall i'd say kalambay was the better fighter during that period.Much better, more rounded technical chops..a genuinely great defensive fighter and technical boxer, unlike Graham's more flawed "pull the head straight back from punches" mostly intuitively reflexive style.MUCH better ring general, generally sharper punches and counters with a quicker, better and more educated jab.

btw Graham had been fighting more aggressively for a few fights before kalambay...against Boston, Williams, Kaylor etc and he won while mostly looking good, it wasn't some sudden thing he was forced into for that fight.


Don't get me wrong though, Graham was a very good awkwardly effective fighter, but his style was more flawed and sloppy.he was a rough diamond in need of a bit more polishing than he got.

[palooka]

Herol came back well from the Grant bashing and beat some pretty good fighters in style.

[Controversial]

Also, and this really ought not to be overlooked, he got his shot against WILLIE DEWITT.

Potato. potato.

Not really as they are different fighters, Willie was a heavyweight.

[palooka]

Also, and this really ought not to be overlooked, he got his shot against WILLIE DEWITT.

Potato. potato.

Not really as they are different fighters, Willie was a heavyweight.

Potatoe tomatoes?

[BoxBuzz]

What kind of toes?