Do British Prospects Need Testing Earlier?

[danamba7]

I know this has been discussed before but it's become relevant yet again with the Etches defeat to Khomitsky. Surely this type of step up should happen around your 10th fight, maybe someone slightly less dangerous than Khomitsky but someone who will ask serious questions. Then you'll learn if you need to work hard on your head movement/stamina etc far earlier on in you career which gives you more time to adapt and improve these areas.

This should go hand in hand with the demise of the obsession with keeping your "0". If our prospects consistently fought tougher fights earlier on and suffered losses but kicked on to be Euro/World level, I'm sure the media, fans and fighters themselves would all change their mind sets.

I believe in the UK we have some great gyms, great talents and a great passion for boxing. We've always held our own on the world scene. However if we want to keep up with the ever-improving Russians, Ukrainians and Japanese, I strongly believe we need to take the reigns off our prospects and see what they can do.

[forcefraser]

I think the major difference is the sparring. If they match them tough enough in sparring consistently, it would make a big difference.

[misterpunch]

yes, earlier.

toughness is a diminishing quality in boxing generally (and british boxing in particular)

but the point about having no losses on your record is very pertinent

[Boxerbeetle]

Not so much earlier, just more sensibly. Too many prospects are given a long run of easy victories then stepped up suddenly to a much higher level which they've not been properly prepared for. There definitely needs to be more of a gradual progression.

[Stuarty]

It depends on the fighter is suppose but in general I'd like to see more 50/50 domestic fights between prospects earlier in their career. Too many shows you have guys with between maybe 12-18 fights and they're still fighting journeyman. There is obviously a risk of going stale. It's a fine line but getting these guys in good domestic fights earlier can only help.

[bripez]

My general answer would be yes, however it really depends on the specific boxer.

I don't know anything about Etches, but for all I know he could have been boxing since he was 10 years old and had 50+ amateur bouts. Add to that 18 fights unbeaten as a pro - not exactly inexperienced.

The classic case is David Price - he had been a full time amateur for years, boxing all over the world in major championships and had been a pro for 5 years and 15 fights before facing Tony Thompson (who was considered a tough but beatable opponent) - if you aren't going to step up opponents at that stage then when would be the right time ?

Hindsight is wonderful - also bear in mind that it is only a minute number of boxers who go undefeated. A loss doesn't have to mean the end of the world.

[danamba7]

It depends on the fighter is suppose but in general I'd like to see more 50/50 domestic fights between prospects earlier in their career. Too many shows you have guys with between maybe 12-18 fights and they're still fighting journeyman. There is obviously a risk of going stale. It's a fine line but getting these guys in good domestic fights earlier can only help.

Exactly. BJS is a rare exception. Ryder and Eubank Jr. both received more plaudits for their loss to BJS than all their wins before or after.

[Datsue]

My general answer would be yes, however it really depends on the specific boxer.

I don't know anything about Etches, but for all I know he could have been boxing since he was 10 years old and had 50+ amateur bouts. Add to that 18 fights unbeaten as a pro - not exactly inexperienced.

The classic case is David Price - he had been a full time amateur for years, boxing all over the world in major championships and had been a pro for 5 years and 15 fights before facing Tony Thompson (who was considered a tough but beatable opponent) - if you aren't going to step up opponents at that stage then when would be the right time ?

Hindsight is wonderful - also bear in mind that it is only a minute number of boxers who go undefeated. A loss doesn't have to mean the end of the world.

Good post.

[magwitch]

Don't know too much about Lee Selby. Didn't he ko Stephen Smith in a round a couple years back?
I hear he has a fight lined up at the end of May (Kevin Mitchell bill) against that Gradovich fella (apols for spelling). That guy looked very competent the last (only) time I've seen him.

[magwitch]

I think by and large, things like head movement and guard should be drummed in so that a fighter can almost 'coach' himself during fights - or at the very least have an awareness to be able to remind himself.
I think failure to adhere to a basic standard of defence (maybe too much comfort zone on the record) is one reason for getting bashed about when they go up a level. Another I think comes down to gameplan. Some fighters are smarter/ more experienced and will set traps when setting up attacks. I guess good- varied sparring is one part of it - but by the same token, you don't want lads punchy from too much sparring when they're still only 30 odd.

[reggaereggae]

The British scene is an odd one.

Prospects that are signed by big promoters get career journeymen rolled out in their early fights who they inevitably defeat.

I think the UK is the only place that runs out these career journeyman, some of whom can fight, but have awful records and generally get short notice. These guys also know that if they get stopped or even beat the prospect they will reduce their likelihood of getting a regular payday.

The book 'Journeymen' is a great read and outlines this. If I had read that book when I was a naive 21 yr old boxing fan I would've been shocked. Not now.

[Rexob]

Yes! stick them in, if their good enough they will keep their 0 on their record simple and we don't have to see to many more of these 1st round blowout bum fights?

[expe]

There needs to be more progression in opponents, too many fighters fight journeymen, then get thrown in at the deep end. Obviously if they're good enough to win they'll come through, but experience can have a big impact on the outcome of a fight. Domestically there's a lot of journeymen, a lot of prospects, then all the fighters at title level.

What's missing is the fighters with the win one, lose one sort of records, gatekeepers that can be used to bring a fighter on, fighters with winning records and a few losses don't seem to be about because too many fighters get protected. The likes of Michael Mooney, Gary Boulden before he went on the long run of losses he's currently on, he was a great opponent for Saunders at that stage of his career, Max Maxwell before he fought for the British title and Bradley Pryce after he lost his Commonwealth title are few and far between. More fights need to be made with opponents like that, that will test fighters and allow them to learn from the experience, some will get turned over and might need a couple more fights before stepping up to that level, that's boxing, most fighters lose at some point.

Gary Corcoran has mostly fought opponents like that in his last 5-6 fights, sometimes he's looked good, from the sound of things he struggled a bit with Adam Jones on Friday, but he will have learned far more from those fights than if he boxed journeymen, without being thrown into a fight he isn't ready for.

[danamba7]

There needs to be more progression in opponents, too many fighters fight journeymen, then get thrown in at the deep end. Obviously if they're good enough to win they'll come through, but experience can have a big impact on the outcome of a fight. Domestically there's a lot of journeymen, a lot of prospects, then all the fighters at title level.

What's missing is the fighters with the win one, lose one sort of records, gatekeepers that can be used to bring a fighter on, fighters with winning records and a few losses don't seem to be about because too many fighters get protected. The likes of Michael Mooney, Gary Boulden before he went on the long run of losses he's currently on, he was a great opponent for Saunders at that stage of his career, Max Maxwell before he fought for the British title and Bradley Pryce after he lost his Commonwealth title are few and far between. More fights need to be made with opponents like that, that will test fighters and allow them to learn from the experience, some will get turned over and might need a couple more fights before stepping up to that level, that's boxing, most fighters lose at some point.

Gary Corcoran has mostly fought opponents like that in his last 5-6 fights, sometimes he's looked good, from the sound of things he struggled a bit with Adam Jones on Friday, but he will have learned far more from those fights than if he boxed journeymen, without being thrown into a fight he isn't ready for.

Agree 100%

Say we had a really exciting and talented LWW turning pro. Usually he'd have 15 fights consisting of journeymen and unbeaten foreign fighters (who should never be unbeaten) before stepping up too high and possibly getting found out if he's not quite ready/talented enough.

In an ideal world, we'd want him to have 6 or 7 journeymen fights and then start throwing him in with the likes of Tyler Goodjohn who will ask a lot of questions but if our prospect is going to be world level like we all hope, he should come through it. And unless the prospect gets sparked in the first minute, they'd learn a lot from this type of fight whatever the result.

[spudder56]

It depends on the fighter is suppose but in general I'd like to see more 50/50 domestic fights between prospects earlier in their career. Too many shows you have guys with between maybe 12-18 fights and they're still fighting journeyman. There is obviously a risk of going stale. It's a fine line but getting these guys in good domestic fights earlier can only help.

i agree but on the other hand if the ticket selling prospect gets matched 50/50 and loses how many tickets is he going to sell next time ?

[Stuarty]

It depends on the fighter is suppose but in general I'd like to see more 50/50 domestic fights between prospects earlier in their career. Too many shows you have guys with between maybe 12-18 fights and they're still fighting journeyman. There is obviously a risk of going stale. It's a fine line but getting these guys in good domestic fights earlier can only help.

i agree but on the other hand if the ticket selling prospect gets matched 50/50 and loses how many tickets is he going to sell next time ?

Just depends on how loyal their fans are I suppose lol. Didn't do Buglioni any harm after his loss. I know it's a business but there is far too much emphasis on ticket sales IMO. One of my close pals is an ex pro and didn't get the opportunities that perhaps his talent and dedication deserved because he wasn't a big ticket seller. Most fighters are just pawns to these promoters essentially.

[expe]

It depends on the fighter is suppose but in general I'd like to see more 50/50 domestic fights between prospects earlier in their career. Too many shows you have guys with between maybe 12-18 fights and they're still fighting journeyman. There is obviously a risk of going stale. It's a fine line but getting these guys in good domestic fights earlier can only help.

i agree but on the other hand if the ticket selling prospect gets matched 50/50 and loses how many tickets is he going to sell next time ?

Some of that's the responsibility of the promoter, too many don't actually do any promoting, they put the event together and leave the fighters to sell the tickets, it would be interesting to see how many tickets small hall shows are selling at the box office, rather than direct from fighters. As an example, in the last month there's been two shows here, the first for a few years, including boxing back at the Guild Hall for the first time in nearly a decade, I didn't see any coverage locally, not even a poster up, they got a bit of an article tucked away in the paper for the first show, but it was on the day of the fight.

[spudder56]

It depends on the fighter is suppose but in general I'd like to see more 50/50 domestic fights between prospects earlier in their career. Too many shows you have guys with between maybe 12-18 fights and they're still fighting journeyman. There is obviously a risk of going stale. It's a fine line but getting these guys in good domestic fights earlier can only help.

i agree but on the other hand if the ticket selling prospect gets matched 50/50 and loses how many tickets is he going to sell next time ?

Some of that's the responsibility of the promoter, too many don't actually do any promoting, they put the event together and leave the fighters to sell the tickets, it would be interesting to see how many tickets small hall shows are selling at the box office, rather than direct from fighters. As an example, in the last month there's been two shows here, the first for a few years, including boxing back at the Guild Hall for the first time in nearly a decade, I didn't see any coverage locally, not even a poster up, they got a bit of an article tucked away in the paper for the first show, but it was on the day of the fight.

It's always been like that for the last 30 years or so mate basically the promotor just books the venue and puts all fighters on ticket deal contracts as the football manager said to one of his players years ago "if your friends and family won't pay to watch you how can you expect anybody else to "

[Boxerbeetle]

Don't know too much about Lee Selby. Didn't he ko Stephen Smith in a round a couple years back?

If only there was a website dedicated to boxing records that you could check.

[magwitch]

Don't know too much about Lee Selby. Didn't he ko Stephen Smith in a round a couple years back?

If only there was a website dedicated to boxing records that you could check.

My fone is too slow for that, but the theory is spot on. I'll make a note to check that tomorrow, just for you.

[Boxing Prospect]

I think the major difference is the sparring. If they match them tough enough in sparring consistently, it would make a big difference.

This, this and more this!

Also we need to remember that good sparring doesn't need to be a case of beating the snot out of each other, it's to train and learn. Our fighters seem to be learning in the fights rather than in the gym. The work journeymen do with our prospects, as in our elite prospects, shouldn't be done in paid fights but in gym.

Someone else has mentioned Japan and over there you get guys like Iwasa sparring with Wake and Omori, Wake has recently sparred with Iwasa and Masuda, Inoue has sparred with the likes of Tunacao, Takayama and Yaegashi, Kosei Tanaka was sparring with Takayama last year, Muranaka has been sparring with Kogawa the last week or two, and the pre-debut 17 year old Hinata Maruta has recently sparred with the world ranked Shun Kubo.

No wonder guys like Inoue and Tanaka are fast tracked...

[Sklar]

I'd like to see Anthony Joshua get properly tested as soon as possible. Why wait?

[Andrew]

I think the major difference is the sparring. If they match them tough enough in sparring consistently, it would make a big difference.

I reckon this is more applicable to the lower weights as the best fighters are mainly in the Far East.

A couple mentioned this was Paul Butlers downfall after his defeat, I even remember him saying he sparred Michael Katsidis when he was over for Tommy Coyle.

[Andrew]

I'd like to see Anthony Joshua get properly tested as soon as possible. Why wait?

In fairness Johnson is a decent fight for him.

[Ian1973]

Not so much earlier, just more sensibly. Too many prospects are given a long run of easy victories then stepped up suddenly to a much higher level which they've not been properly prepared for. There definitely needs to be more of a gradual progression.

This.

Take Joshua. Banging out a series of no marks is pretty much pointless. At some point he will be stepped up but it needs to be gradually and very carefully or when he fights someone with a pulse he will end up on his backside.

Yes, if you are exceptional you may get away with it but I'm not sure for a lot of fighters it is the best thing in the long run.