Top 100 Fighters of All-Time

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Thanks Elmer, you always bring the goods. Wilde isn't in Leonard's area code.

Well, if you go by quality of opposition, then you pick Sugar Ray. If you go by longevity, unbeaten streaks, world championship dominance and division dominance, then you pick the Mighty Atom

If you go by sanity you pick Leonard. Wilde isn't more qualified than Mike O'Dowd. Honestly I wouldn't have a problem with Jimmy outside of the top 100.

[elmersalsa]

Wilde had more longevity than Leonard. Had more KOs than Leonard had fights. And was more dominant as champion. He even was European and British champion. That is impressive for a little guy of just 100 pounds that also heat guys that outweighed him at least 15 rounds

[elmersalsa]

I meant pounds, not rounds

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Wilde had more longevity than Leonard. Had more KOs than Leonard had fights. And was more dominant as champion. He even was European and British champion. That is impressive for a little guy of just 100 pounds that also heat guys that outweighed him at least 15 rounds

Plenty of old timers had those stats, Wilde's opposition is lacking. Buck Smith had more wins than Wilde has fights. I think Jimmy is one of those guys we all rate highly just because we're supposed to.

[elmersalsa]

Wilde had more longevity than Leonard. Had more KOs than Leonard had fights. And was more dominant as champion. He even was European and British champion. That is impressive for a little guy of just 100 pounds that also heat guys that outweighed him at least 15 rounds

Plenty of old timers had those stats, Wilde's opposition is lacking. Buck Smith had more wins than Wilde has fights. I think Jimmy is one of those guys we all rate highly just because we're supposed to.

Well, the criteria is pound per pound. Buck Smith did not even break the top 200 of his own weight class in his time when he was around. A good guy that Smith is, I met him here in Atlanta in 1999, but his record does not show anything to consider great in terms of accomplishments. Wilde in the other hand was the best of Wales, the best of Britain, the best of and the best of the whole entire world.,

[Ambling Alp II]

Here are some of the changes I would make:

Wilde to level 4
Whitaker to level 2
Duran and Benny to level 1
Monzon to level 3
DLH to level 9
McLarning to level 2 - severely underrated fighter.
Carlos Ortiz to level 5 - I think many people also severely underrates Carlos Ortiz. How many contenders did he beat? How many HOF's did he beat? His record should show victories vs Locche and Loi, everyone knows he was robbed once vs Loi. Ortiz two levels below DLH is a crime in my book.
Lewis to level 7

I have a few more, I'll comeback.

Great effort Ambling Alp II and solid post.

I appreciate the comments. I think Mclarnin is my biggest problem. I only had him at Level 7; I am now thinking Level 3 or atleast 4.
I don't give him much crdit for beating a very inxeperienced LaBarba or an over the hill Leonard. However, he does have wins over 3 fighters in the Top 40. He also had wins over fighters just outside the Top 100( Villa, Petrolle, and Mandell). Also had nice wins over Taylor, Kaplan, and Young Corbett III. He did have some losses or otherwise he would deserve to be even higher than Level 3 or 4.

As for duran and Benny Leonard, yes they could be in the first Level I am fimrly set on 8 of the 10 in Level 1. I put in Monzon and Louis, but they are borderline. I could see several fighters from Level 2 being in Level 1.

You were wondering how many contenders Ortiz beat? I count 22 top 10 contenders or champions. That is not the highert, but it's it's pretty impressive. He could go up a couple of levels.

I have Lewis at Level 5; Level 7 is a bit too low in my opinion. I can't justify him being below Jeffries, Liston, and Tyson who are at Level 6.

As for DLH, I know a lot of people want him to be a lot lower or not even listed at all. However,I just look at all of the good fighters that he beat. There is no one else in the last 25 years or so that is even close to fighting the overall level of competition that he fought. He does seem to lack to that one huge win and he had a few losses. However, I just think that his complete "body of work" is good enough to warrant him being in the mix. Maybe he could go down a level, but that is all I am prepared to drop him.

I look forward to your future posts. You make some good points.

[elmersalsa]

Oscar De La Hoya was not a great fighter.

guys like Joe Brown, Eusebio Pedroza, Miguel Canto, Azumah Nelson and Koxai Galaxy to name a few DESERVED to be top 100 material.

[elmersalsa]

Barbados Joe Walcott should be at least in level 4 or 5.

[elmersalsa]

Other greats that you missed:
Freddie Miller
Jimmy Barry
Pancho Villa
Ted "Kid" Lewis
Johnny Dundee
Beau Jack
Peter Jackson
Georges Carpentier
Jack Britton
Benny Lynch
Maybe John L. Sullivan? D

[Ezzard]

One thing about Pep. In those days of far fewer titles some of those contenders get lost. Nowadays they'd have won alphabet titles...and would be considered bigger names.

Take Chalky Wright...could easily be a two weight belt holder in today's game.

[elmersalsa]

One thing about Pep. In those days of far fewer titles some of those contenders get lost. Nowadays they'd have won alphabet titles...and would be considered bigger names.

Take Chalky Wright...could easily be a two weight belt holder in today's game.

You are exactly right, Ezzard. Boy!, you always hit it on the nail. We just get caught up about titles that are split into four champions per division that we do not really consider it.

For example, the great Floyd Mayweather, Jr has beaten at least 15 title holders. But anyone in this forum could tell me, how many of those 15 were TRUE world champions in another era.

[Ambling Alp II]

Other greats that you missed:
Freddie Miller
Jimmy Barry
Pancho Villa
Ted "Kid" Lewis
Johnny Dundee
Beau Jack
Peter Jackson
Georges Carpentier
Jack Britton
Benny Lynch
Maybe John L. Sullivan? D

Well sure. All of these were considered. I can only put in 100 guys. You can make a decent case for any of them. There is another 40 guys that I easily could have put in as well. By the time I got to Level 9, it got really difficult because there were about 60 guys that were really close and there was only 20 that could make it.

The problem is that I would have to take off 11 guys if I put all those that you suggested in. You need to mention some guys that are on the list that should not be.

[Ambling Alp II]

One thing about Pep. In those days of far fewer titles some of those contenders get lost. Nowadays they'd have won alphabet titles...and would be considered bigger names.

Take Chalky Wright...could easily be a two weight belt holder in today's game.

That is certainly true about the beltholders of the last 20-30 years or so. The majority would not have been a champion if there was only one and would remembered less.

I tried to be fair to every era.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Pep is the toughest case for me. It's weird that you tussle with yourself over something like that but when you look at his overall resume it just doesn't match the guys we are placing him with. I try to strictly rate fighters on resumes and Willie is a guy whose talent, and the amazing story, override the actual results.

I don't think anyone looks past Chalky Wright or Willie Joyce, but when you're trying to justify Pep as a top 5-10 fighter you're digging into the Sal Bartolo's of the world. Mayweather compares pretty favorably to Pep.

[elmersalsa]

Well, everybody got their own criteria

[Ambling Alp II]

Bump; as requested by Seamus.

[cfang]

I love this approach. Best way to do it. Good job.

I'd move SR Leonard, Moore and Monzon from 1 to 2 and replace them with Gans, Benny Leonard and Duran.

Hate to say it but Mayweather is far too low. He should be in t2 or 3. I'd swap him with Tunney probably.

[Seamus]

I don't think it's possible to do a Top 100 withhout someone being shocked by at least 1 notable ommission. So far for me on this one it's Mike Gibbons. Otherwise, looks pretty good.

[Seamus]

I'd also drop Manuel Ortiz. The reason he was able to make so many successful title defenses, was because so many of the guys had no business fighting for a World title.

[palooka]

Thought this would be fun. This a list of my Top 100 Fighters of All-Time. Instead of ranking them 1-100, I put each of the 100 fighters in one of 10 levels, with each level having 10 fighters. Level 1 is the best, followed by Level 2, and so on to Level 10, who just made it.

Obviously there were some close calls, but it went fairly smoothly until I got to Level 9 and 10, and saw how many great fighters I was going to have to leave out. There are more than 50 fighters who I think you could make a credible argument to make the top 100. There are so many that are relatively close.

I knew that no matter how I ranked them, people will have disagreements. No two people would have it exactly the same.

However, I do ask that for every fighter that you think should move up a level, name someone else that I have above him that needs to be moved down to the level that I have the fighter that you think should get moved up. So for example, you could say Dick Tiger needs to be moved from Level 5 to Level 4 and Stanley Ketchel should be moved down from Level 4 to Level 5.
Same if you think someone is too high, say who needs to be moved up.

For every fighter that isn't in the Top 100 at all that you think should be, also mention a fighter who is in that should not be.
Of course, feel free to dispute another person's comments.

I hope we can have fresh debates between fighters that we don't discuss a lot, rather than the same old ones we have had before.

Anyway, here are the Top 100 in alphabetical order by Level:

Level 1 - Ali,Armstrong,Charles, Greb, Langford, Ray Leonard, Louis, Monzon, Moore, and Robinson

Level 2 - Duran, Gans, Jofre, Benny Leonard, Pacquiao, Pep, Ross, Saddler, Walker, and Wilde.

Level 3 - Arguello, Canzoneri, Chavez, Fitzsimmons, Hagler, Hearns, Sanchez, Spinks, Tunney, and Whitaker

Level 4 - Ambers, Foster, Frazier, Foreman, Griffith, Holmes, Holyfield, Jack Johnson, Ketchel, and Napoles

Level 5 - Benitez, Kid Chocolate, Dempsey, Harold Johnson, Lennox Lewis, Loughran, Marciano, Mayweather, Olivares, and Tiger

Level 6 - Barrera, De La Hoya, Gomez, Jeffries, Liston, McFarland, Morales, Mosley, Saldivar, and Tyson.

Level 7 - Attell, Panama Al Brown, Burley, Harada, Conn, Gavilan, Jones Jr.,McGovern, McLarnin, and Zarate

Level 8 - Benvenuti, Calzaghe, Cerdan, Flowers, Hopkins, LaMotta, John Henry Lewis, Carlos Ortiz, Rosenbloom, and Ike Williams

Level 9 - Fullmer, Tommy Gibbons, Locche, Loi, Marquez, Marshall, McCallum,Pryor, Rodriguez, and Holman Williams

Level 10-Basilio, Berg, Delaney, "Nonpariel" Dempsey, Dixon, LaBarba, Manuel Ortiz, Perez, Ryan, and Barbadoes Joe Walcott.

nothing to say, some brilliant fighters.

[Scypion]

For what it's worth. I would drop Leonard and Moore from the top tier and maybe add Duran. I might have Hagler a little higher.

[Scypion]

I think that I would also move Willie Pep to the top tier. Pep's record was 134-1-1 before meeting Sandy Saddler for the first time in 1948. Despite his plane crash in 1945 in which people were killed and Pep had a broken back and a broken leg, he regained his title from a very tough Sandy Saddler in 1949. Anyway, top tier for Willie Pep IMO.

[elmersalsa]

I think that I would also move Willie Pep to the top tier. Pep's record was 134-1-1 before meeting Sandy Saddler for the first time in 1948. Despite his plane crash in 1945 in which people were killed and Pep had a broken back and a broken leg, he regained his title from a very tough Sandy Saddler in 1949. Anyway, top tier for Willie Pep IMO.

He is a top tier in my book. Well, according to Alp, the great Sugar Ray Leonard was better LOL...That is an insult.

[elmersalsa]

In no way the great Sugar Ray Leonard was better than the great Roberto Duran. Only Sugar Ray fans think that way

[Scypion]

I would probably have Sugar Ray Leonard as an all time top five welterweight, and that is pretty good.

I would have Pep and Duran top tier. Pep's only loss in his first 136 fights was to Sammy Angott, who was world lightweight champion at the time, and some who were there thought that Pep deserved the decision.