Private Fight Film Collectors

[Ezzard]

Anybody know much about this world?

What is considered to be the most valuable film?

What are the rare films that are believed to exist but we have no proof of it?

Old films get discovered all the time. Anyone know what the last great discovery of boxing films was?

[Bladder]

Anyone know what the last great discovery of boxing films was?

I guess the Langford-Jeannette bout that emerged last year would be one.

[Brutu]

How,where and when was it "rediscovered"?
Why we only hearing about it now?

[Bladder]

How,where and when was it "rediscovered"?
Why we only hearing about it now?

I'll keep names out of it in case they post here. But it had been lurking in the vaults of some archives in France, Gaumont I think.

It was known about by the miser collectors who wanted to keep it secret in their closed off world ...... but someone who was told in confidence about it, signed their version of the official secrets act, sworn on scout's honour etc ..... thought that everyone interested in boxing history would like to see it and told where it was. It all went into meltdown over on ESB and turned into the usual bitchfest.

Anyway, here's a version a quick search on youtube threw up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvdt3xm3ql0

[CNorkusJr]

I dont know about rarest films or oldest films, but I do know working with the right people about the large libraries that exist in places.

Jim Jacobs (pre Bill Cayton partnership) in 60's & 70's was acknowledged as the biggest official boxing film collector of that era. He owned the rights to Big Fight Inc. which owned the populous collection of TV fights of the 40's -60's and paid theatrical bouts shown in theatres.He would be generous in his collections to fighters who requested copies of their fights during their careers that were on TV. He would make copies and give them 16mm reels for them. He only asked that they do not sell or show the films commercially as he owned the rights to do so. Most,if not all, boxers obeyed his request as gentlemen's handshake. My father acquired several of his national TV fights through Jim this way.

I do not know when or how Bill Cayton partnered with Jim, but soon they both managed what was considered the largest boxing film archive ever known. (You might of heard that Mike Tyson looked over many fight films during his training when he was with Cayton/Jacobs at that time).

When Jim Jacobs passed away-the entire business went to Cayton. When Mr Cayton Sr passed away-it went to his son Bill Cayton Jr. His son soon sold every film rights in collection to ESPN/Disney for undisclosed price (estimated in millions).
They own the library now and do not seem that gracious with dispensing of its large material. Thankfully over time, copies of various films trickled out of the Jacobs/Cayton owned collection, as well as other films existed in private collections. These are the ones you see posted online.
ESPN/Disney use their films to show on ESPN classics, and when movies in Hollywood want to use clips for whatever reason, they buy the rights to use the clips in their productions from ESPN.

Many large collections are in the hands of dealers who you can buy copies of films from them on DVDs. They amassed their collections over time and in many ways.

Former Champ Archie Moore was said to have over 400 films in his collection in his California home at the time of his death. A brief note in the paper said that the collection was sold by his family as one piece for over 1 million dollars at auction-buyer unknown.

Many films still exist in private collections and hopefully those that were never seen will someday show up. Hope this info helps.

[Brutu]

I think someone uncovered a brief clip of Holman Williams
fighting in the ring from the 1940's.I think the clip is over at the cyberboxingzone.

[dempseyfire]

It's actually pretty extroadinary when one thinks of the sheer multitude of big fights/fighters from the 30s up through the 1960s of which their is either zero or extremely limited film of them out on the public market.

It'd be a shame if some real treasures are just sitting dormant in some collector's attic gathering dust b/c it makes them feel special to be among the very few who have it.

One great thing about Youtube is that it's democratized the market to an extent and now private collectors aren't able to charge the ridiculous fees for "super rare" fights that they used to . . many of which ended up being not so rare at all.

[yancey]

Interesting news about Archie Moore having a nice collection of films.

[Brutu]

Has ESPN ever made an itemized listing of all the fight films in the
Bill Cayton/Jim Jacobs collection?
If not ,how does anyone know if a film they may have come across(or video-tape) is either super rare or the only known surviving copy?

[pound per pound]

ESPN does not show 99.99% of the fights in their collection.

Private film collectors used to trade more often before DVD's and the Internet came around.

[Ezzard]

ESPN does not show 99.99% of the fights in their collection.

Private film collectors used to trade more often before DVD's and the Internet came around.

I take it then that a fight film loses value the more people have seen it.

It's a shadowy world. Very interesting.

Are there any rumours of certain fights existing that many thought were lost.

A Harry Greb perhaps? An early Robinson-LaMotta?

[davbai]

I always thought that the holy grail of fight films was a Harry Greb fight film, not just that training footage which was a diamond in itself. It is talked about on harrygreb.com that one of the fights with Gene Tunney and the one against Mickey Walker[in the ring not the one that is said to have taken place outside] was filmed as it was commented on how hot the ring lights were , apparently the extra light was for the filming.The guy who runs the site says that the age of the fights are not at all ancient and many much older fights have been filmed.He believes that it is lying possibly unknown in an archive some where , maybe a university or someone maybe just hoarding it and does not intend letting it out to publicviewing. These fights were two that I would love to see no matter how short the footage was and I hope that if footage does exist it hasn't been left to rot away ,that would be absolutely tragic as to me this would be a piece of history.American sporting history.AS he said on the site, the clock is ticking, not just on these fights but any rarities that might be still around we've got to get them digitised cos they are not gonna last forever.I always think `fingers crossed' some stuff might turn up ot of the blue.I didn't think that i'd ever see film of Langford and Jeanette.Maybe will see one of these against Sam mcvey.Someone did post a video on youtube saying it was mcvey vs jim Johnson but a sharp eyed fan put him right.Anyway I live in hope although that is fading with the advancing years as what was not that old is gradually getting that way.We only have to look up the old time fighters to see who isn't with us anymore. I use to think 'who would I most like to meet, at first I thought of some film star tarts or singers but then I thought it would have to be one of the `wise old men of boxing' like Arcel,Dundee,Futch, Seamon.Goldman,Duva,Bimstien but sadly they are all departing and taking ther experience and wisdom with them.R.I.P Anyway if I don't stop now i''ll be typing all night. David Bailey.

[mikeycapp]

Hello Gentlemen,

The ESPN Classic Fight Film Collection is much smaller than you think, it is of course the Mecca of fight films and a testimony to Jimmy Jacobs and Bill Cayton's ingenuity in bringing the number of fight films together in one collection as they did. Many of the films are duplicates of the same fight but shot from a different angle or a different version with sound or others with a narration.

You can be very happy to know that a great many of the fights have been uploaded to You Tube or one of the other boxing video sites already, what might also interest everyone to know is that a reel with a boxing interview is considered a fight film and the ESPN Boxing collection contains many of them.

You may be sad to hear that The ESPN Fight Film Collection has about 5000 Fights in it's collection and that includes interviews, duplicates and many of them have seen the light of day through youtube, when I started doing this thing you couldn't get a copy of ALi vs Foreman that was watchable so things have come a long way through technology.

As for the Archie Moore collection it was purchased by the late Tony Fosco and much like the ESPN Collection Archie's collection had many of the Ring Classics and other copies of fights that are now easily obtained, perhaps 2% of his collection contained some very rare highlights of his own fights. Tony Fosco had a Henry Armstrong fight that never surfaced it was against a non descript opponent, the film coming from the opponents highlight reel.

Mikey Capp

[sweetsci]

...when I started doing this thing you couldn't get a copy of ALi vs Foreman that was watchable...

I remember in the late 70's and early 80's whenever tv networks would run some sort of Ali retrospective they'd always show stills when they got to Ali-Foreman. You couldn't buy a Super-8 version of Ali-Foreman through Ring Classics or other public sources*. I got into boxing as a 9-year-old in 1976, so I saw the tail end of Ali's career post- Frazier III. For years I thought Ali-Foreman wasn't filmed. NBC finally showed it in 1990 and after that the floodgates opened and you couldn't avoid it. I wouldn't be surprised if Ali-Foreman is now the most-shown fight ever.

* Remember how Super 8 films were the only way the public could buy old fights? We've come a long way!

[Tomasino]

Anyone know what the last great discovery of boxing films was?

I guess the Langford-Jeannette bout that emerged last year would be one.

It's actually great quality too. You can see the high skill level of Sam and how powerful he was for his size. Great footage.

[SamWise72]

Harry Greb would be gold standard, so would more Robinson from his welter years. Imagine if Ray Robinson-Henry Armstrong turned up! Not a classic fight, but a meeting of greats.

[Ambling Alp II]

What Robinson fights at welterweight has anyone here seen?

[davbai]

on you tube there is a copy of Robinson v Angott also the is a copy of robinson v tommy bell

[dempseyfire]

What Robinson fights at welterweight has anyone here seen?

There are several HL clips of Robinson at welterweight floating around (Angott, Riccio, Flores, Fusari). His fight with Dykes is the earliest complete fight of Ray's I believe is readily available.

[JC]

on you tube there is a copy of Robinson v Angott also the is a copy of robinson v tommy bell

Thanks for the info.

I'd always been under the impression there was no film of Robinson's welterweight career. I'll look forward to looking that up.

[Woller]

27 minutes of the Bernard Docusen fight exists, filmed from ringside.

[pound per pound]

Harry Greb would be gold standard, so would more Robinson from his welter years. Imagine if Ray Robinson-Henry Armstrong turned up! Not a classic fight, but a meeting of greats.

I have Robinson vs Armstrong as an exhibition match. The main trouble with private film collectors is some of them violated no trade clauses to others to obtain more films. As such obtaining new and rare films requires a great deal of trust. Once a rare film goes to the web, its value becomes next to nothing.

Equally frustrating is when collectors say this film does not exist, when they know it does. For example some new darn well Jeanette vs Langford was on film, but some of those who knew denied it existed because they owned it and were told to keep their mouths shut.

I once told a collector, why not strike a deal with the boxing hall of fame and have them build a small theater where hard core fans pass through a metal detector so hard core fans can pay money to enjoy the history. His reply, why should I trust the hall of fame with my films.

UGH.

[pound per pound]

Hello Gentlemen,

The ESPN Classic Fight Film Collection is much smaller than you think, it is of course the Mecca of fight films and a testimony to Jimmy Jacobs and Bill Cayton's ingenuity in bringing the number of fight films together in one collection as they did. Many of the films are duplicates of the same fight but shot from a different angle or a different version with sound or others with a narration.

You can be very happy to know that a great many of the fights have been uploaded to You Tube or one of the other boxing video sites already, what might also interest everyone to know is that a reel with a boxing interview is considered a fight film and the ESPN Boxing collection contains many of them.

You may be sad to hear that The ESPN Fight Film Collection has about 5000 Fights in it's collection and that includes interviews, duplicates and many of them have seen the light of day through youtube, when I started doing this thing you couldn't get a copy of ALi vs Foreman that was watchable so things have come a long way through technology.

As for the Archie Moore collection it was purchased by the late Tony Fosco and much like the ESPN Collection Archie's collection had many of the Ring Classics and other copies of fights that are now easily obtained, perhaps 2% of his collection contained some very rare highlights of his own fights. Tony Fosco had a Henry Armstrong fight that never surfaced it was against a non descript opponent, the film coming from the opponents highlight reel.

Mikey Capp

Tony Fusco from Chicago has passed? I hope his films were preserved.

[Ambling Alp II]

on you tube there is a copy of Robinson v Angott also the is a copy of robinson v tommy bell

I will look for those as well as the ones demspeyfire mentioned.

Thanks guys!

[doug.ie]

was that 1978 private showing of greb v walker (apparently a very bad quality copy) fiction ? (was the guys name craig long who reported seeing it ? )