It's official: Kovalev/Stevenson not happening soon

[zorndeslammes]

Let's assume HBO has a matching clause...I don't know how that would work or why anyone would agree to it, but we'll assume they have it for the purposes of this exercise. If Haymon wins the purse bid with a 6 million dollar purse and wanted to put the fight on NBC...what is HBO matching, exactly?

Either they have a contract they just signed IMO or they lied about having one. Either way, it makes this whole charade look exceedingly bad for them. Nicole Duva has straight up disappeared from Twitter ever since this broke, which is hilarious given that up until this, her feed was pretty much all Haymon criticism.

[ReggieDiggs]

Let's assume HBO has a matching clause...I don't know how that would work or why anyone would agree to it, but we'll assume they have it for the purposes of this exercise. If Haymon wins the purse bid with a 6 million dollar purse and wanted to put the fight on NBC...what is HBO matching, exactly?

You can fight for HBO (or PBC or Showtime) or you can avoid a matching clause are likely your options. Thats why one would agree to it. Its standard in combat sports among the power brokers.

Idk that a purse bid & a TV contract are under the same tent. A TV contract is about showing a specific fighters bouts & a purse bid is about promoting a specific fight. Since HBO is like PBC/Al Haymon & not really a promoter they aren't actually bidding on the fight itself. I'm no expert on all this sh!t myself so idk how exactly all that gets handled in this sorta situation.

Having said that from my understanding contracts should have clauses dealing with purse bid situations. I've heard of them being included before without the specific details that they include. A guy could lose his title or the opportunity for a new title over his TV channel not being as interested in showing the fight or just not being bankrolled to offer the promoter the adequate licencing fee if the promoter should win the purse bid & that can affect the fighters value in the business. So there is a reasoning behind including purse bid clauses in contracts so a fighter wouldn't have to drop a title if the channel isn't interested in showing a mandatory fight. Thats why I call bs on Kathy saying its HBO or nothing too. Or maybe things have changed a lil that TV channels aren't letting fighters handle mandatories that they aren't interested in anymore idk. The value of titles is at a all time low so maybe you just gotta lose your title if HBO isn't interested idk.

[Evander]

I think we need core proof to find out exactly who's signed to who and for how long.
If what's being said is true then Kovalev's people have a decision to take the fight or not, if Kovalev's people aren't signed with anyone then they're not being railroaded they're being called out to a who wants it more.

[zorndeslammes]

Idk that a purse bid & a TV contract are under the same tent. A TV contract is about showing a specific fighters bouts & a purse bid is about promoting a specific fight. Since HBO is like PBC/Al Haymon & not really a promoter they aren't actually bidding on the fight itself. I'm no expert on all this sh!t myself so idk how exactly all that gets handled in this sorta situation.

They'd have someone bid on their behalf. Probably Michel. Kinda like how Warriors Boxing was their go-between to win the DeGale/Dirrell purse bid they're showing in a couple weeks. It doesn't matter who wins though - Lou DiBella wins as their go-between, I dunno. So he has a purse of $6 million then that he has to spend on these two guys. Where a network like HBO comes in is that they offer to pay a fee for the rights to televise the event. PBC bought the time on NBC to show pretty much whatever they want. So if they want to say "We're paying $5 million to Lou Dibella for this fight!" I don't see how they wouldn't be allowed to do that. They could drive the price so far north, HBO would never in a million years touch it. It wouldn't even take that much.

Having said that from my understanding contracts should have clauses dealing with purse bid situations. I've heard of them being included before without the specific details that they include. A guy could lose his title or the opportunity for a new title over his TV channel not being as interested in showing the fight or just not being bankrolled to offer the promoter the adequate licencing fee if the promoter should win the purse bid & that can affect the fighters value in the business.

Let's use Kovalev here because that's (not showing a fight) was a real threat HBO was apparently using. His mandatory title defense is against Mohammedi, right? Meanwhile, Kovalev's contract language is going to state that he has minimum amounts he can be paid as a world champion, and may even break it down to what he's owed if he has X number of belts and is making Y number of defenses. Given that his announced purse for the Hopkins fight was 500K, assume that's his minimum right now. If HBO says, "nah" to the Mohammedi fight, which they can do even if Kovalev is under contract to them (because HBO always retains rights to refusal), Main Events' options are this:

-Find a fight HBO will sign for and obtain a rights fee (anywhere between 500K-1 mil) from them

-Find another TV outlet that will pay them money. HBO pays the most among channels that regularly show boxing. ESPN FNF's budget was something like 30K the last few years. Most of the other networks probably won't work with Main Events because of Al Haymon. This is part of why they always rail on the guy - he's starving them.

-Put the fight on PPV. Assume Kovalev/Mohammedi does 50K for buys at $30 apiece - subtract the 55% or so the PPV outlets take, your EBITDA might be 800K. Not bad. Also, only 50,000 house holds will have seen Sergei Kovalev. He was invisible to everyone else.

-Move the fight internationally. Hey, maybe Kovalev can make you your money if you take the fight to Moscow, get a Russian TV deal, and fill an arena with Oligarchs. Good luck organizing that from New Jersey on your own though.

If Main Events takes Kovalev to Fox Sports and gets a 100K fee + production and puts the fight on at Bethlehem Sands and collects a $50K site fee from there, they're still $350K short to cover Sergei Kovalev's pay. That's how and why networks have the power to force fighters to cancel fights or drop belts. If there's a fight that they don't give a crap about or they think the audience will dump on, the networks have the right (and should use it often!) to force the hands of the promoters. Otherwise, you get Roy Jones' career.

Now, if Kovalev doesn't have a contract with HBO, let's say, and he gets a 3 million dollar purse to fight Stevenson and goes to NBC, you gotta understand that the only portion of that money the Duva's see is their percentage they get from Kovalev for the job of promoting him (10-25%). That's it. If he has a contract with HBO, they're handed the money to put the card on and find the site. They do what most promoters do and what they claim is "smart business" because it mitigates risk to virtually zero. If you have a network fee, and you can take your fight to an arena where you can collect a guaranteed site fee, you take that, whatever international rights you sell and the advertising on the ring, add the numbers up, and then make sure your expenses (fighter pay, licensing, setup, advertising) cost less than that and you make a profit. That's why this sport has gone from arenas in the middle of cities to Vegas and Indian Casinos. I mentioned Alexander/Bradley earlier and how HBO paid through the nose for it. Remember how it was in the Silverdome of all places, scaled to hold like 1,500 people? That's because the Silverdome paid half a million for the fight and the only other entities interested were small time casinos that could only afford a fraction of that. They could have sold out the Scottrade Arena in St. Louis and had a solid gate, but that would require work and effort. That's a big reason why boxing is in the dumps now - people like Gary Shaw and the Duvas.

[zorndeslammes]

Kathy Duva is claiming a matching right which she states was enacted by HBO when the purse bid was called for. Frankly, this sounds like nonsense given that they were negotiating a new contract with HBO when HBO wasn't interested in booking the Mohammedi fight. I think she's full of it and is needing Stevenson to come to HBO because without him, HBO isn't interested in keeping Kovalev. She seems to indicate this by also saying that she's decided to "stay loyal to HBO". Are you forced to be there or are you making the choice to be there?

[ReggieDiggs]

Simply put: HBO possessing a “matching right” is not synonymous to Sergey Kovalev being “contractually-tied” to that network… only signing a contract extension would do that!

FYI – every single one of my links that I submit on this forum are 100% relevant to the discussions taking place, it’s just that sometimes it requires people to actually read them and then digest and carefully comprehend the information that is being articulated.

Of course a matching right is being contractually tied. Kathy can't do business with anyone else without HBO saying they don't wanna do business with her under the same offer. How is it not???? If I'm required to ask you if I can do another deal before I can take that other offer of course I'm contractually tied to you.

And sure it was relevant cuz HBO & her relationship with HBO was brought up, but it didn't answer the question cuz contractually tied don't mean what you keep saying it does. Contractually tied doesn't mean a new contract got signed.

And if there is a new contract how many fights is it for? When does it end? Why haven't any particulars of this contract or rumors of it been leaked? There are people who bring up rumored contract details in this business & you are implying no one is talking about a real contract with one of the biggest power brokers in the sport. With all the talk of numbers by Kathy, the one she's leaving out is how much Sergey is getting paid & how many years Sergey's signed to the entity "who's made every superstar in boxing today"? I call bs on that silliness.

Digest & comprehend Yea cuz digesting & comprehending is the problem when you are looking at a math book to answer a health question.

[ReggieDiggs]

Kathy Duva is claiming a matching right which she states was enacted by HBO when the purse bid was called for. Frankly, this sounds like nonsense given that they were negotiating a new contract with HBO when HBO wasn't interested in booking the Mohammedi fight. I think she's full of it and is needing Stevenson to come to HBO because without him, HBO isn't interested in keeping Kovalev. She seems to indicate this by also saying that she's decided to "stay loyal to HBO". Are you forced to be there or are you making the choice to be there?

I'd be surprised if HBO wasn't interested in Sergey even with the issue of not many contenders being at their disposal that Ferg brought up the other day. Having said that I definitely think HBO is trying to lowball Sergey & with Kathy not having many options they can do it. Thats really neither here or there imho though cuz the game they all play is HBO tries to get as much as possible for as lil as they can & the promoter tries to give as lil to get as much as possible. Thats the dance.

[ReggieDiggs]

If you’d read my links, when Kathy Duva claimed that Sergey's contract with HBO had expired on the 18th March, she also said that there were doubts that his mandatory defence of his IBF belt would be televised by HBO, because she was still renegotiating Kovalev’s contract extension with them:

“We want to work with HBO. We love working with HBO. I’ve said consistently this is the way to build a star. We’ll figure it out. We’re talking to them constantly and we will come up with something because they are the No. 1 network – they’re the ones I want to work with,” said Kathy Duva when discussing the likelihood of the Mohammedi bout being televised by HBO and also the contract extension negotiations.

Indeed, the IBF chairman (Lindsey Tucker) stated that the Kovalev-Mohammedi bout would have been opened to purse bids if both camps couldn’t have come to an agreement.

So a month ago, last month Kathy Duva claimed that the Kovalev-Mohammedi fight could have been televised by any network and open to purse bids, but two days ago, Sergey was contractually-tied to HBO?

If HBO was unwilling to "match" the winning PBC purse bid, then the Kovalev-Stevenson bout could have been televised by NBC, Showtime etc. (as per the Mohammedi contest), but now Kathy says that Sergey Kovalev is contractually-tied to HBO, which suggests that the contact extension has been signed, which she has not yet denied!

You are a hard person to debate when you are clearly wrong, you keep trying to change the goal line

No one is even talking about what people want to do or who they love working with or the July fight. That ain't got nothing to do with what we are debating (& this is one of the things that I don't understand why you bring it up like it means anything, its like a drunk guy rambling about impressive facts he knows why he's taking a sh!t in an alley, aka you bring up some important info, but it gots lil to nothing to do with the point of debate).

Again as far as the bolded goes. Contractually tied to HBO doesn't mean a new contract was signed. Kathy was contractually tied to HBO before the Pascal fight & after the Pascal fight & unless she signed a new deal with some other entity she's contractually tied to HBO now with or without a new contract. I'm gonna highlight that in red so you can digest & comprehend it HBO can match any offer Kathy gets for Sergey's fights so Kathy must talk to HBO before she makes any move away from them. That means due to a contract that has expired HBO still has contractual agreements that Kathy must follow to not be in violation of that contract. If that doesn't mean contractually tied they must have changed the meaning of contractual in the last couple days & I missed it.

And you forgot to post all the links to how many fights this new contract is for or for how long, how much all that sorta stuff?

[ReggieDiggs]

I’m arguing using the information that Kathy Duva has articulated during multiple interviews, whilst also noting the questions that have been posed by Yvon Michel and the boxing media, which is for her to explain precisely what has changed since her interview on the 18th March… and this is something she hasn’t addressed.

Regardless of anything Kathy has said it doesn't change the definition of contractually tied to a new contract was signed. Thats what we are discussing.

Yesterday Kathy said that Kovalev was exclusively tied to HBO and couldn’t fight on another network, but a month ago he was free to fight Mohammedi on any network.

And how does "exclusively tied" mean anything different then "contractually tied"?

One can assume thru common sense that if you can only be with HBO til HBO decides they don't wanna meet another parties offer that you can just be with HBO. lmffao. This ain't complicated brother.

Sergey was never free to fight on another network last month regardless of what Kathy said last month. HBO had a contract with Sergey. No one I've heard of signed Sergey for a month & then randomly dropped him so HBO had matching rights a month ago & they have them today. Therefore Sergey couldn't fight anyone anywhere else til they decided they didn't wanna work with Sergey anymore.

I don’t need to research HBO’s feedback on this or provide proof of the contract itself, since I’m only questioning the inconsistencies in Kathy’s story, which you have failed to address.

Kathy is a hardworking idiot. She probably says a bunch of dumb sh!t. Having said that whatever Kathy has said it doesn't change the definition of what a contract is or isn't or what it entails.

Assuming the Russian hasn’t signed a contract extension, Kathy Duva doesn’t need HBO’s permission for Sergey Kovalev to face Adonis Stevenson on PBC/NBC/Showtime if they refuse to match the WBC's winning purse bid offer.

Holy sh!t.

I will admit on this issue I'm not 100% clear on what needs to happen cuz there is a lil apples & oranges going on here. HBO could still be chosen to show the fight regardless of who won the purse bid, a purse bid is about promoting a fight, a tv contract is about showing a fighter in this case.

I do suspect there is purse bid clauses in the HBO contract that would allow Sergey to fight anyone HBO is unwilling to pay enough in licensing fees to the promoter who bids that would allow everything to work. I mean if HBO is paying Kathy $7M in licensing fees to show Adonis vs Sergey, Kathy obviously doesn't wanna bid more then the minimum profit she wants to make with that info in hand. Thats what I would assume, but while I contend there is purse bid stipulations on this contract I have virtually zero knowledge on what that would or could entail. And like I mentioned earlier I believe the value of a title is at a all time low so if HBO has decided they want Sergey vs whoever instead of a mandatory fight or just don't want the mandatory, but still wanna show Sergey's fights then dropping the title might be the only move. I hope that is incorrect cuz a boxers value is still dependant to some degree on holding the abc titles we all agree are corrupt.

You are arguing through gut instinct, whereas I’ve provided cold-hard facts sourced directly from the proverbial horses’ mouth!

I'm arguing a definition. Contractually tied doesn't mean a new contract got signed. Thats not a gut instinct. You are arguing....sh!t man idk what you are arguing tbqh You just like posting links as misdirection or something I think. I guess you are arguing that somehow matching rights don't equal a contract. Thats incorrect though. Its a part of the contract & if Sergey wanted to fight on PBC while his contract is technically expired he still is obliged to give HBO the right to match any offer PBC made. Thats pretty much being tied to a contract with HBO. Can't make a move til HBO decides they are okay with you moving. Its simple man. It don't got sh!t to do with anything Kathy said or implied or that she'd love to do or whatever.

[ReggieDiggs]

@ReggieDiggs - I don’t think there’s any point in continuing our discussion, since you dismiss Kathy Duva’s very own statements. She’s the most reliable source of information available and her interview transcripts suggest that she either doesn’t know what she’s doing, she’s lied or she has orchestrated a contract renewal between Sergey Kovalev and HBO. Yvon Michel, Dan Rafael et al have suggested that the latter option mirrors reality.

Kathy Duva is the most reliable source of information we have, since she was the person who announced that her man (the fighter she promotes) will not be able to participate in the WBC’s purse bid.

Discussing theories with someone who doesn’t possess any facts from other reliable sources just seems to be a redundant exercise.

You can be dense af sometimes. Kathy ain't got sh!t to do with what a contract is or isn't. Kathy didn't create what a contract is. I don't understand why thats so difficult to understand. Her words mean nothing when all she's saying is contractually tied to HBO. Expired contract or new contract with a matching clause equals contractually tied to HBO. If you can back up from focusing so hard on words people are saying & focus on definitions you'd understand. You don't need 20 links to understand a definition & how boxing contracts work.

[ReggieDiggs]

“As far as [Dan] knows [Kovalev's] deal was up after Pascal but HBO did have a first/last.

And this is exactly what I'm saying. Thank you Fat Dan. First/Last = you ain't going anywhere til we decide you can go somewhere. Thus contractually tied to HBO even with a technically expired contract.

[ReggieDiggs]

@ReggieDiggs

Pay attention Reggie! Here’s what Dan actually said:

“As far as [Dan] knows [Kovalev's] deal was up after Pascal but HBO did have a first/last. But then they did a new deal under which Mohammedi would be the first fight of the new deal.”

“[Duva] knows she was outmaneuvered on this. It happens. She licks her wounds and comes back to fight another day.”

Bottom line: Kathy Duva renegotiated Kovalev’s deal with HBO knowing full well that she couldn’t compete with Al Haymon’s purse bid, so she removed her fighter from contention of facing Adonis Stevenson!

Again, for the 7th time, that doesn't mean anything in regards to what we are debating. Or I'm debating cuz you keep flopping all over the place towards sh!t I'm not talking about & then you act like thats what I've been talking about

You said contractually tied = a new contract. I said no it doesn't. I said the old contract has what Fat Dan confirmed that there was, first/last rights, thus even though the contract is technically expired Kathy/Sergey were contractually tied to HBO thus contractually tied doesn't mean a new contract has been signed. You were trying to suggest contractually tied meant a new contract. Quit trying to change the goal line on the topic.

[ReggieDiggs]

@ReggieDiggs:

• 18th March – Kovalev’s contract with HBO had expired. Kathy said that the Mohammedi fight may not be televised by HBO, because Kovalev was out-of-contract with HBO. Duva negotiating a contract extension with HBO.
• 15th April – Duva withdraws Kovalev from WBC’s purse bid because of his newly-signed exclusive contract with HBO
• 18th April – Dan Rafael confirms that Duva had renewed Kovalev’s exclusive deal with HBO knowing full-well that it would scupper the Stevenson bout... and proves fergusg right, once again!

Its April 17 dumb ass Unless you're in China or some such sh!t.

Can't even get the dates right.

And again this ain't got sh!t to do with what you said earlier. I'm amazed you are so passionately arguing a f#cking definition with all sorts of unrelated stuff. You were wrong. Its not that big a deal.

[koolkc107]

The bottom line is this:

You have to either be pretty dense or pretty myopian not to realize that Duva and Kovalev are, in fact, guilty of the same thing they accused Adonis of when he signed with Showtime.

Worse actually because A) Stevenson's jump to Showtime did not totally rule out a showdown the way Duva is maintaining the current HBO contract does and B) There was no purse bid ready to take place.

Duva has given Adonis all the ammo he needs to completely avoid Kovalev if he chooses to. And unlike Sergie, there are a boatload of viable guys he can fight to do just that.

[zorndeslammes]

Today, Kovalev posted a picture of his kid wearing a shirt with a monkey on it and said it was Stevenson on twitter. Probably not the best look.

[crusader]

Did he delete that tweet? I can't see it........

[ikorolev]

Unless he has a Russian account beside @KrusherKovalev ...

[zorndeslammes]

Did he delete that tweet? I can't see it........

Yes.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CC6tf2LW0AEHyf9.jpg:large

[Ricky_]

If you’d read my links, when Kathy Duva claimed that Sergey's contract with HBO had expired on the 18th March, she also said that there were doubts that his mandatory defence of his IBF belt would be televised by HBO, because she was still renegotiating Kovalev’s contract extension with them:

“We want to work with HBO. We love working with HBO. I’ve said consistently this is the way to build a star. We’ll figure it out. We’re talking to them constantly and we will come up with something because they are the No. 1 network – they’re the ones I want to work with,” said Kathy Duva when discussing the likelihood of the Mohammedi bout being televised by HBO and also the contract extension negotiations.

Indeed, the IBF chairman (Lindsey Tucker) stated that the Kovalev-Mohammedi bout would have been opened to purse bids if both camps couldn’t have come to an agreement.

So a month ago, last month Kathy Duva claimed that the Kovalev-Mohammedi fight could have been televised by any network and open to purse bids, but two days ago, Sergey was contractually-tied to HBO?

If HBO was unwilling to "match" the winning PBC purse bid, then the Kovalev-Stevenson bout could have been televised by NBC, Showtime etc. (as per the Mohammedi contest), but now Kathy says that Sergey Kovalev is contractually-tied to HBO, which suggests that the contact extension has been signed, which she has not yet denied!

You are a hard person to debate when you are clearly wrong, you keep trying to change the goal line

No one is even talking about what people want to do or who they love working with or the July fight. That ain't got nothing to do with what we are debating (& this is one of the things that I don't understand why you bring it up like it means anything, its like a drunk guy rambling about impressive facts he knows why he's taking a sh!t in an alley, aka you bring up some important info, but it gots lil to nothing to do with the point of debate).

Again as far as the bolded goes. Contractually tied to HBO doesn't mean a new contract was signed. Kathy was contractually tied to HBO before the Pascal fight & after the Pascal fight & unless she signed a new deal with some other entity she's contractually tied to HBO now with or without a new contract. I'm gonna highlight that in red so you can digest & comprehend it HBO can match any offer Kathy gets for Sergey's fights so Kathy must talk to HBO before she makes any move away from them. That means due to a contract that has expired HBO still has contractual agreements that Kathy must follow to not be in violation of that contract. If that doesn't mean contractually tied they must have changed the meaning of contractual in the last couple days & I missed it.

And you forgot to post all the links to how many fights this new contract is for or for how long, how much all that sorta stuff?

And 'Enlightened One' claims he isn't Fergus

[Enlightened-One]

Sergey Kovalev ducked Adonis Stevenson.

[Ricky_]

Sergey Kovalev ducked Adonis Stevenson.

At least you & ....uhm.... your old banned account agree. That makes 1 of you.

[Enlightened-One]

Sergey Kovalev ducked Adonis Stevenson.

At least you & ....uhm.... your old banned account agree. That makes 1 of you.

I've never previously held an account that received a permanent ban from the moderators.

On a separate note, it seems that this thread conveniently details the facts about Kovalev ducking Stevenson.

[Ricky_]

Sergey Kovalev ducked Adonis Stevenson.

At least you & ....uhm.... your old banned account agree. That makes 1 of you.

I've never previously held an account that received a permanent ban from the moderators.

On a separate note, it seems that this thread conveniently details the facts about Kovalev ducking Stevenson.

At least you're too embarrassed to admit it.

[KiwiRider]

Sergey Kovalev ducked Adonis Stevenson.

Perfect timing to get that one in.

[jamamb]

pretty obvious kovs team swerved the process for a fight when the bids were ordered. though i believe kov eventually fought someone better than stevenson, twice. but whether it was money, politics, fear, a bit of all, they avoided the fight just as much as stevenson did by jumping ship when a fight looked likely on hbo.

personally ive always thought adonis wouldve won. that pimp bomb left hand is brutal, quick, and precise. but kov is sharp and powerful too. its one of the biggest 'this fight shouldve happened!' letdowns of recent years.