who ranks higher on an all time heavyweight list?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 11 Jan 2006, 16:51

joe louis or larry holmes?

IMO its joe louis

- louis dominated more in his title defenses
- louis beat better competition IMO
- louis gave rematches in close fights and left no victories controversial
- louis totally cleaned out heavyweight division leaving no question marks
- louis had most title defenses out of any champion in history, despite losing 4 years due to war
- and historically, louis did more for the sport than holmes
- i think louis beats holmes in a head to head matchup as well

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 11 Jan 2006, 17:49

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:joe louis or larry holmes?

IMO its joe louis

- louis dominated more in his title defenses
- louis beat better competition IMO
- louis gave rematches in close fights and left no victories controversial
- louis totally cleaned out heavyweight division leaving no question marks
- louis had most title defenses out of any champion in history, despite losing 4 years due to war
- and historically, louis did more for the sport than holmes
- i think louis beats holmes in a head to head matchup as well

Both dominated their respective eras.

Both are top 5 all time heavyweight champs.

Both would have lost to peak Ali, IMO.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 11 Jan 2006, 20:06

Here we go again... Holmes had the style to beat Louis, if you are judging them as world champions rather than how they would do against eachother then Louis pips Larry because he had a wider impact upon his era... not that this was Larrys fault, he was the victim of the politics of his time and also suffered for following Ali... but for me Holmes was the superior fighter to Louis.... I would say a peak Holmes and Jack Johnson are the only other champs who could have conceivably beaten the peak Ali....

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 12 Jan 2006, 05:18

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:joe louis or larry holmes?

IMO its joe louis

- louis dominated more in his title defenses
- louis beat better competition IMO
- louis gave rematches in close fights and left no victories controversial
- louis totally cleaned out heavyweight division leaving no question marks
- louis had most title defenses out of any champion in history, despite losing 4 years due to war
- and historically, louis did more for the sport than holmes
- i think louis beats holmes in a head to head matchup as well

I agree with yuor poits but on each count it's very very close. Taking in to consideration head-to-head and achievement I have Louis at #3 and Holmes #4. I think after Holmes there is a bit of a gap befroe you get to the other great champions.

Anyway, why are you posting this one again BB? Haven't we already ahd a Louis-Holmes thread recently?

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 12 Jan 2006, 05:34

Id put Joe Louis at no. 2 in the all-time HW list and Larry Holmes at no.3 (Ali no.1) . Im not sure who the better fighter was as I wasnt around in the Joe Louis era, I did grow up watching Larry Holmes who was excellent, and only got beat when past his prime. I think Joe Louis had more of an impact historically on boxing, and it would be an even match-up, hence I would put him slightly higher.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 12 Jan 2006, 13:27

silkov wrote:Here we go again... Holmes had the style to beat Louis, if you are judging them as world champions rather than how they would do against eachother then Louis pips Larry because he had a wider impact upon his era... not that this was Larrys fault, he was the victim of the politics of his time and also suffered for following Ali... but for me Holmes was the superior fighter to Louis.... I would say a peak Holmes and Jack Johnson are the only other champs who could have conceivably beaten the peak Ali....

idk, holmes was a bigger target and louis seemed to have trouble with the smaller speedier guys and runners which holmes wasnt. holmes was vunerable in a lot of areas that joe would take advantage of. and he seemed to have trouble with ackward counterpunchers with good right hands. i think louis had the right style to beat holmes. ali would pose a lot more problems for louis than holmes owuld.

but for me Holmes was the superior fighter to Louis....

what makes u say this?

I would say a peak Holmes and Jack Johnson are the only other champs who could have conceivably beaten the peak Ali....[/

i think the only fighter that beats muhammad ali is joe louis who would stop ali IMO. perhaps ali would decision joe the first time, but in the rematch i see louis winning

i think louis knocks out holmes and johnson

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 12 Jan 2006, 15:20

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
i think the only fighter that beats muhammad ali is joe louis who would stop ali IMO. perhaps ali would decision joe the first time, but in the rematch i see louis winning

i think louis knocks out holmes and johnson

and obviously knocks out Marciano...

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 12 Jan 2006, 15:50

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
silkov wrote:Here we go again... Holmes had the style to beat Louis, if you are judging them as world champions rather than how they would do against eachother then Louis pips Larry because he had a wider impact upon his era... not that this was Larrys fault, he was the victim of the politics of his time and also suffered for following Ali... but for me Holmes was the superior fighter to Louis.... I would say a peak Holmes and Jack Johnson are the only other champs who could have conceivably beaten the peak Ali....

idk, holmes was a bigger target and louis seemed to have trouble with the smaller speedier guys and runners which holmes wasnt. holmes was vunerable in a lot of areas that joe would take advantage of. and he seemed to have trouble with ackward counterpunchers with good right hands. i think louis had the right style to beat holmes. ali would pose a lot more problems for louis than holmes owuld.

but for me Holmes was the superior fighter to Louis....

what makes u say this?

I would say a peak Holmes and Jack Johnson are the only other champs who could have conceivably beaten the peak Ali....[/

i think the only fighter that beats muhammad ali is joe louis who would stop ali IMO. perhaps ali would decision joe the first time, but in the rematch i see louis winning

i think louis knocks out holmes and johnson

So Holmes wasn't fast and clever with one of the best jabs of any of the champions?... have you seen Holmes fight at his peak?... or at all for that matter...

barry · Post by **barry** » 12 Jan 2006, 15:53

In my opinion...Louis hands down! Holmes was great, but Louis was legendary and he didn't usually just beat opponents...most of the time he destroyed opponents!

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 12 Jan 2006, 16:30

But Louis always had trouble with fast movers, and quick thinking boxers... Holmes speed and skills and intelligence would make him a very tough opponent for Louis... if Conn could come so close to beat a peak Louis then I don't see Louis beating Holmes,

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 12 Jan 2006, 17:07

silkov wrote:But Louis always had trouble with fast movers, and quick thinking boxers... Holmes speed and skills and intelligence would make him a very tough opponent for Louis... if Conn could come so close to beat a peak Louis then I don't see Louis beating Holmes,

That argument doesn't work.

"If Renaldo Snipes can hurt Holmes, think what Louis would do."

See?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 12 Jan 2006, 17:32

Collins2000 wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
i think the only fighter that beats muhammad ali is joe louis who would stop ali IMO. perhaps ali would decision joe the first time, but in the rematch i see louis winning

i think louis knocks out holmes and johnson
and obviously knocks out Marciano...

yes

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 12 Jan 2006, 17:36

silkov wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
silkov wrote:Here we go again... Holmes had the style to beat Louis, if you are judging them as world champions rather than how they would do against eachother then Louis pips Larry because he had a wider impact upon his era... not that this was Larrys fault, he was the victim of the politics of his time and also suffered for following Ali... but for me Holmes was the superior fighter to Louis.... I would say a peak Holmes and Jack Johnson are the only other champs who could have conceivably beaten the peak Ali....

idk, holmes was a bigger target and louis seemed to have trouble with the smaller speedier guys and runners which holmes wasnt. holmes was vunerable in a lot of areas that joe would take advantage of. and he seemed to have trouble with ackward counterpunchers with good right hands. i think louis had the right style to beat holmes. ali would pose a lot more problems for louis than holmes owuld.

but for me Holmes was the superior fighter to Louis....

what makes u say this?

I would say a peak Holmes and Jack Johnson are the only other champs who could have conceivably beaten the peak Ali....[/

i think the only fighter that beats muhammad ali is joe louis who would stop ali IMO. perhaps ali would decision joe the first time, but in the rematch i see louis winning

i think louis knocks out holmes and johnson

So Holmes wasn't fast and clever with one of the best jabs of any of the champions?... have you seen Holmes fight at his peak?... or at all for that matter...

no i havdnt, i only have a 30 fight DVD collection of larry holmes sitting on my shelf

holmes was not as fast as billy conn. conn was 170lb so naturally he is faster than a big 6'3 212lb holmes. conn was a smaller target than holmes as well.

was holmes fast and clever? yes

did holmes have the greatest jab in heavyweight history? yes

so whats ur point?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 12 Jan 2006, 17:39

silkov wrote:But Louis always had trouble with fast movers, and quick thinking boxers... Holmes speed and skills and intelligence would make him a very tough opponent for Louis... if Conn could come so close to beat a peak Louis then I don't see Louis beating Holmes,

like manassa said,

"if a renaldo snipes or ken norton could come close to beating holmes than joe louis would beat holmes"

cant use that arguement

if norton and frazier can beat muhammad ali, then george foreman who beat norton and frazier will beat ali right?

i might add louis was severely dehydrated for that conn fight and wasnt himself in that fight. it was one of louis worst fights.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 13 Jan 2006, 11:07

Decagon wrote:Louis had trouble with a 168-pound Billy Conn and just about every fast fighter he faced. He doesn't have as much success against fast fighters as Holmes did against big hitters.

Yes he had a very difficult time with Conn in the first meeting, but besides Conn I when did a pre WWII Louis have any real trouble with fast fighters? He got mugged by Schmeling, but he was only 22 at the time and probably had not reached his prime. Pastor ran from him, but wasn't really very competitive. Godoy I was a terrific struggle, but Arturo had success with pressure and a crouching defense. What other fights did prime Louis struggle in, especially against fast fighters?

Holmes also had difficult fights including some with punchers, like Weaver Norton and Spoon. While I don't consider Norton a really hard puncher, he fought aggressively rather than box and move like Williams, another fighter that gave Holmes trouble.

I too think Holmes would give Louis trouble, but Louis was such a terrific puncher, and I don't think Holmes could have avoided the bombs all night. Very tough fight though, and Holmes is a definite top 5all time HW in my book. Just not quite up there with Joe.

who ranks higher on an all time heavyweight list?

who ranks higher on an all time heavyweight list?

Re: who ranks higher on an all time heavyweight list?

Re: who ranks higher on an all time heavyweight list?

re