Klitchko: The Next Larry Holmes

[koolkc107]

There are guys on Holmes's list, however, who I think beat almost everyone on Wlad's list.

That’s an interesting point! Can you please let me know a few of the names on Larry Holmes’s list that could beat the majority of Wladimir’s opponents? And when I ask you to provide this information, I don’t want you to consider their respective primes… I’m only interested in their ability at the time they fought Larry.

Please also consider how realistic their chance would be of overcoming the challenges posed by modern era fighters that are physically much larger and more athletic (i.e. at least a 23lb+ weight disadvantage), because the average Wladimir Klitschko opponent weighs 239lbs.

Second- and maybe more important- is the fact that Holmes can say he was truly dominant in his defenses. Wlad, though usually a clear winner in his victory, got KTFO 3 times.

To be honest, I feel you have to give Wladimir Klitschko credit for employing Emmanuel Steward and from learning from his defeats, because he reinvented himself and has pretty much dominated his opponents for the last eleven years.

I also don’t quite agree with your belief that Holmes was “truly dominant” over his opponents… as he had at least three fairly closely scored contests for his successful defences and he also hit the deck quite a few times throughout the course of his career.

People dwell too much on the defeats that Klitschko suffered more than eleven years ago, without giving him credit from turning his career around.

To much time to go into the 5 or 6 I think can but I'll say a few...

I think Cooney beats everyone on Wlad's list. Hell, Gerry KTFO of Wlad.
Same for the Norton Holmes won his title from, and the Witherspoon that earned an SD loss.
I also think Weaver (circa 1979) does a number on most if not all of Wlad's opponents, KOs them.

I think Jennings, if he had the skill and/or ability of some of these guys, would have won against the Klitschko we saw Saturday.

Only one (Weaver) was under 210 and he hit like a mule anyway. Most were around 220, not far off from what Jennings was.

As for dominant, Holmes was exactly that.

Except for the SD win over Terrible Tim, every other guy was KOed or never got within 5 points (5 rounds) of Larry on the scorecards.

If that isn't dominant, I'd like to know what you say is.

And they were much, much, much better than a guy who was only a pro for 6 years.

[Tuan_Jim]

You are an absolute cretin.

Rather than throw your hands up and concede 'I was wrong, those men were in shape, I can see on the tapes they look like athletes', you throw in silly caveats that they should lose 'more' weight, be 'more' in shape - but place no extra expectations on physique whatosever on Klitschko's opponents, the tapes of which show big soft rotund bodies.

Larry Holmes opponents, who were in shape, should kill themselves dropping weight to 200lb for no reason whatsoever, as the cruisers were 190 at that time. . . . because today there are 24 hour weigh ins, and people in lighter divisions who have to make weight rehydrate, and the cruiser limit was moved up to 200lb.

There's no sensible conversation to be had here, you're demonstrably ignorant to basic boxing and any era prior to the current one. It's clear from your writing style that you are a very young man, possibly a child, and that you skim Boxrec numbers to form your arguments rather than study the fights themselves. Your cause is too hopeless, and I don't have time to help some dull witted numbers autistic.

[Tuan_Jim]

I concede that you are an utter cretin who can't construct a sound argument.

[koolkc107]

You are an absolute cretin.

Larry Holmes opponents, who were in shape, should kill themselves dropping weight to 200lb for no reason whatsoever, as the cruisers were 190 at that time?

Just consider that concept again. All of those in shape heavyweights I listed should still drop down to 200lb. . . . because today there are 24 hour weigh ins, and people in lighter divisions who have to make weight rehydrate, and the cruiser limit was moved up to 200lb.

Rather than throw your hands up and concede 'I was wrong, those men were in shape, I can see on the tapes they look like athletes', you throw in silly caveats that they should lose 'more' weight, be 'more' in shape - but place no extra expectations on physique whatosever on Klitschko's opponents, the tapes of which show big soft rotund bodies.

There's no sensible conversation to be had here, you're demonstrably ignorant to basic boxing and any era prior to the current one. It's clear from your writing style that you are a very young man, possibly a child, and that you skim Boxrec numbers to form your arguments rather than study the fights themselves. Your cause is too hopeless, and I don't have time to help some dull witted numbers autistic.

Blah, blah, blah, blah... David Haye... blah, blah, blah.

When you resort to insults, it means that you've conceded. Thanks!

Sorry Tuan, but fergusg might be the best poster on this board.

Even when I disagree with him, he makes very solid points and usually backs his takes up with facts.

He is about as non-cretin as this forum gets.

[Tuan_Jim]

The man who criticises the heavyweights who showed up in peak physical condition because they should have lost more weight, and who excuses heavyweights who show up grossly overweight and gas in fights because he wrongly believes they are 'bigger men' is 'the best poster on this board'?

If that's the best poster on the board, shut it down. If those are 'sound arguments' he listed in this thread, step in the ward with him. His logic needs to be sealed behind a heavy door.

[unfairlane]

fergusg seems to be the only sober poster in here

[ClivePatrickLyons]

The whole "Ali is the greatest" stuff is so played out and so not based in fact or logic. How would Ali beat Wlad? Certainly not by power...and judging based on the performance this past weekend against a man in better shape than Ali ever was, probably not by speed. But Ali's chin would have been punished. He never faced a guy who was 6'6", 240 of pure muscle, with a finely tuned defensive style and a devastating power punch. Ali was not great defensively (he took a ton of punches in his career and hit the canvas a half-dozen times) and had he stepped into the ring with either Klitschko brother there's no way he would see the final bell. He outweighed Cooper by 20 pounds and Cooper had a 50% KO rate, so he wasn't all that powerful...but he put Ali on the floor. The men who knocked Wlad down were all huge, bigger and stronger than Ali and certainly bigger than Cooper or Banks.

Ali might have hit the deck a few times but a prime George Foreman couldn't KO him, so I highly doubt either Klitschko could. The man whatever you may think had a good chin and very good recuperative powers.

It just goes to show how much you know about ALI, I'v seen some STUPID comment's made without much thought on BOXREC FORUM about certain fighter BUT for someone even suggesting ALI took a ton of punche's in his career HIS SPEED AND NOT GETTING HIT WAS HIS MAIN WEAPON AND THEN TO GO ON AND MAKE THE DUMB STATEMENT ABOUT COOPER PUTING ALI ON THE CANVAS I TAKE IT YOU NEVER HEARD OF
LISTON/WILLIAMS/SHAVERS/NORTON/FRAZIER/FOREMAN/LYLE ALI WAS NEVER COUNTED OUT

[Tuan_Jim]

fergusg seems to be the only sober poster in here

The boy who thinks a hard sinewy heavyweight who worked all the way down to 216lb can then somehow lose another 16lb and weigh in at 200lb? It's the equivalent of me saying Mayweather and Pac work down down to 130lb 'and rehydrate' to 146. I've never heard such an absurd argument spoken by anyone. The manner in which he shifted from 'All of Larry Holmes's opponents were fat' to 'Actually they were in shape but to cover myself they should have lost another 15lb so I'm still right' is cringeworthy.

He's back there on the dunce bench where he belongs, why don't you go join him and have a sober conversation about boxing?

[david1963]

If Clinchko wants to match stats with the greats he better unify and start defending the belts soon, because he's already 39.

The problem with this lazy Holmes comparison is that Larry Holmes was in so many thrilling fights. A lot of people are very excited by having this white superman as heavyweight champion and turn a blind eye to his many flaws. When future generations hear of this titan Wladimir Klitschko, and seek out his crowning glories - Ibragimov, Haye, Povetkin - they are going to be bored to sleep, and left wondering what on earth all the fuss was about.

He just doesn't have the stamina, ring IQ or arsenal of punches to handle athletic, moving heavyweights. Jennings with all his limitations and lack of punch power really made him look as ordinary as he is.

And this is exactly why many experts think Wlad would get murdered if you put him in other eras.

Vitali though, because of that chin and that will, competes in any era.

Would that be the same Vitali who quit near the end of his fight with Chris Byrd because of shoulder pain?

When you consider what some fighters have gone through to make it to the end of a fight, and he quits about five minutes from the end of a fight he was winning handily on points. Even Shannon Briggs was able to go almost 12 rounds with a ruptured bicep in a fight he head zero chance of winning on pints against the very same Vitali.

The only other really meaningful fight for Vitali was the six rounds he lasted against Lennox Lewis. I say "meaningful" as in it shows you the guy's true level.

[david1963]

The problem with this lazy Holmes comparison is that Larry Holmes was in so many thrilling fights. A lot of people are very excited by having this white superman as heavyweight champion and turn a blind eye to his many flaws. When future generations hear of this titan Wladimir Klitschko, and seek out his crowning glories - Ibragimov, Haye, Povetkin - they are going to be bored to sleep, and left wondering what on earth all the fuss was about.

I think you've expressed a very lazy uneducated opinion!

Here’s a list of the world title fights that Larry Holmes emerged victorious:
• Carl Williams
• James Smith
• Scott Frank
• Tim Witherspoon
• Lucien Rodriguez
• Gerry Cooney
• Renaldo Snipes
• Leon Spinks
• Trevor Berbick
• Muhammad Ali
• Scott LeDoux
• Lorenzo Zanon
• Earnie Shavers
• Mike Weaver
• Ossie Ocasio
• Alfredo Evangelista
• Ken Norton

His victories over Tim Witherspoon & Ken Norton were impressive, but unfortunately for him, he fought in an era where the quality of opposition he faced was merely mediocre.

If you compare the title challengers to what Wladimir faced, are the two eras that much different (in calibre of opposition)?

Here’s a list of the men that Klitschko successfully defeated in 25 of his world heavyweight championship fights:
• Bryant Jennings
• Kubrat Pulev
• Alex Leapai
• Alexander Povetkin
• Francesco Pianeta
• Mariusz Wach
• Tony Thompson
• Jean Marc Mormeck
• David Haye
• Samuel Peter
• Eddie Chambers
• Ruslan Chagaev
• Hasim Rahman
• Sultan Ibragimov
• Lamon Brewster
• Ray Austin
• Calvin Brock
• Chris Byrd
• Jameel McCline
• Ray Mercer
• Frans Botha
• Charles Shufford
• Derrick Jefferson

The average weight of a Larry Holmes opponent during his successful world title fights, excluding three anomalous flabby behemoths (Leroy Jones, David Bey & Randall Cobb), was 216lbs.

Prior to the Bryant Jennings bout, excluding equally anomalous “small” heavyweight opponents, who have all campaigned as cruiserweights (i.e. Chris Byrd, Eddie Chambers, David Haye & Jean Marc Mormeck), the average weight of a Dr. Steelhammer title challenger is 239lbs. Wladmir's average over the course of the same bouts was 244lbs.

If you consider the fact that in Larry Holmes’ era, weigh-ins took place on the day of the fight itself, coupled with their typically fleshy physiques, it’s not unreasonable to suggest that the vast majority of his opponents would have campaigned as cruiserweights if they were active today.

As you probably know, Leon Spinks did fight as a cruiserweight for a while, even challenging Dwight Muhammad Qawi for a world title. His brother Michael was a light heavyweight world champion, so clearly he could have been a cruiserweight. Some of the others probably could have made the 200lb limit. Witherspoon, Williams, Cooney, Snipes, Berbick, and Ledoux would not have made it. If Cooney had even tried, he'd have had serious health issues. Weaver and Norton would have struggled to take off those last few pounds. Even the 1970s version of Ali couldn't have done it. There's not many left to form a vast majority, and even some of them are not mentioned because I can't recall their natural weight.

[dempseyfire]

The funny thing about this convo is Larry's best wins were over guys naturally bigger than Wlad's best wins, often considerably.

Witherspoon, Norton, Shavers, Berbick, Snipes, Smith, Cooney . . .compare that to Byrd, Povetkin, Ibragimov, Chagaev, and Haye.

Weight means nothing. Byrd looked like a dough boy at 215. Ibragimov. Povetkin, Brock and Chagaev looked like your neighborhood plumbers in the 220s. Only Haye looked really fit and he had to force-feed himself meals to stay over 200 during training camp. The guys Holmes fought trained their asses off to get below 225 (and sadly, some like Terrible Tim rarely got into that kind of condition again)

[Bard of Boxrec]

The funny thing about this convo is Larry's best wins were over guys naturally bigger than Wlad's best wins, often considerably.

Witherspoon, Norton, Shavers, Berbick, Snipes, Smith, Cooney . . .compare that to Byrd, Povetkin, Ibragimov, Chagaev, and Haye.

Weight means nothing. Byrd looked like a dough boy at 215. Ibragimov. Povetkin, Brock and Chagaev looked like your neighborhood plumbers in the 220s. Only Haye looked really fit and he had to force-feed himself meals to stay over 200 during training camp. The guys Holmes fought trained their asses off to get below 225 (and sadly, some like Terrible Tim rarely got into that kind of condition again)

I don't have enough thumbs to put up in response to this post.

[Tuan_Jim]

The funny thing about this convo is Larry's best wins were over guys naturally bigger than Wlad's best wins, often considerably.

Witherspoon, Norton, Shavers, Berbick, Snipes, Smith, Cooney . . .compare that to Byrd, Povetkin, Ibragimov, Chagaev, and Haye.

Weight means nothing. Byrd looked like a dough boy at 215. Ibragimov. Povetkin, Brock and Chagaev looked like your neighborhood plumbers in the 220s. Only Haye looked really fit and he had to force-feed himself meals to stay over 200 during training camp. The guys Holmes fought trained their asses off to get below 225 (and sadly, some like Terrible Tim rarely got into that kind of condition again)

Dempsey, you did it for me. When this fellow said Wlad's opponents were bigger men I knew it was inaccurate but there were too just many ridiculous and wildly inaccurate points to contend with at one time. If he means they were bigger in terms of flab, yes, they were bigger men. But in terms of frame - height, reach et al, absolutely not.

Essentially the fellow boxed himself into a corner by making an absurd statement, and has been trying to save face ever since. Watch how he wriggles away from his initial remark, that Larry Holmes's opponents were mostly fat, to 'they were in shape but should have lost even more weight,' while maintaining Wladimir Klitschko's opponents - often shorter men with shorter reach, but 20 to 30lbs heavier - 'are in shape and don't need to lose any weight'. His position collapses on itself through its mind boggling obesity of contradiction.

And apparently he's the 'best poster on the forum', who 'always makes sound points'.

What an advertisement he is for Current Scene.

[koolkc107]

The funny thing about this convo is Larry's best wins were over guys naturally bigger than Wlad's best wins, often considerably.

Witherspoon, Norton, Shavers, Berbick, Snipes, Smith, Cooney . . .compare that to Byrd, Povetkin, Ibragimov, Chagaev, and Haye.

Weight means nothing. Byrd looked like a dough boy at 215. Ibragimov. Povetkin, Brock and Chagaev looked like your neighborhood plumbers in the 220s. Only Haye looked really fit and he had to force-feed himself meals to stay over 200 during training camp. The guys Holmes fought trained their asses off to get below 225 (and sadly, some like Terrible Tim rarely got into that kind of condition again)

Dempsey, you did it for me. When this fellow said Wlad's opponents were bigger men I knew it was inaccurate but there were too just many ridiculous and wildly inaccurate points to contend with at one time. If he means they were bigger in terms of flab, yes, they were bigger men. But in terms of frame - height, reach et al, absolutely not.

Essentially the fellow boxed himself into a corner by making an absurd statement, and has been trying to save face ever since. Watch how he wriggles away from his initial remark, that Larry Holmes's opponents were mostly fat, to 'they were in shape but should have lost even more weight,' while maintaining Wladimir Klitschko's opponents - often shorter men with shorter reach, but 20 to 30lbs heavier - 'are in shape and don't need to lose any weight'. His position collapses on itself through its mind boggling obesity of contradiction.

And apparently he's the 'best poster on the forum', who 'always makes sound points'.

What an advertisement he is for Current Scene.

I didn't say he never gets things wrong. He himself will admit that.

And BTW, I said that about him even though I disagree with him in this particular thread.

On balance tho, fergusg brings it more consistently than most here.

He is a better advertisement for this site than many...especially those whose first reaction is not to counter with solid argument, but with weak personal attacks.

[Emil]

I didn't say he never gets things wrong. He himself will admit that.

And BTW, I said that about him even though I disagree with him in this particular thread.

On balance tho, fergusg brings it more consistently than most here.

He is a better advertisement for this site than many...especially those whose first reaction is not to counter with solid argument, but with weak personal attacks.

Glad you enjoy the posts. For me most of the posts are like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

[koolkc107]

I didn't say he never gets things wrong. He himself will admit that.

And BTW, I said that about him even though I disagree with him in this particular thread.

On balance tho, fergusg brings it more consistently than most here.

He is a better advertisement for this site than many...especially those whose first reaction is not to counter with solid argument, but with weak personal attacks.

Glad you enjoy the posts. For me most of the posts are like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

And I guess you missed the part where I said I don't always agree with him.

Maybe you should actually read that wiki article you posted.

Lotsa stuff in there for you it seems.

[Counter-puncher]

saying Fergus is sober somewhat damns him with faint praise, because sobriety, plus an anal tendency to bury his head in a record book and keep it there, with his little legs flapping in the air for balance, these are the only things he can bring to a boxing debate.

He may be able to read a series of records but he repeatedly fails to understand what he actually sees in the ring, that is indeed if he has seen any of Holmes' defences, which I suspect in most or many cases he has not, hence his continual recourse to statistical measures which require not one iota of UNDERSTANDING the actual practise of boxing. Check his posts, you will.never see a single insightful comment on technique, tactics, styles, because he has no frame of reference to make such comments.

Harsh, but true I.am afraid.

Jim I may have disagreed with you in the past but listing holmes' and then wlads opponents I think the difference *should* be clear. To use a word you used earlier, most of them, empirically, were simply better boxers than
Wlads
foes. The issue of size is a terrible blind alley.

[Counter-puncher]

As a former poster on here said of Witherspoon, IIRC, the dude who fought Holmes would make Wlad suck his thumb. He would TERRIFY Wlad.

[Tuan_Jim]

Your reading of this Fergus character matches my own. He writes these robotic posts reeling off the numbers he has plucked from Boxrec, and judges a fighter's worth entirely on a number - the fatter the better, the fitter the weaker. That he hasn't seen any or most of Holmes's title fights is not up for debate, given his impossible misinterpretation of the challengers. It's no wonder he's opted to quietly retire from this thread.

Speaking of challengers who would terrify Clinchko, how about Mike Weaver? Came out swinging firey balls of death versus Holmes, and fought at a frenetic pace for 12 rounds. Dragged Holmes to hell.

[Tuan_Jim]

Is that the same Ali who was knocked down by Sonny Banks (190 pounds) and Henry Cooper (185 pounds)?

The whole "Ali is the greatest" stuff is so played out and so not based in fact or logic. How would Ali beat Wlad? Certainly not by power...and judging based on the performance this past weekend against a man in better shape than Ali ever was, probably not by speed. But Ali's chin would have been punished. He never faced a guy who was 6'6", 240 of pure muscle, with a finely tuned defensive style and a devastating power punch. Ali was not great defensively (he took a ton of punches in his career and hit the canvas a half-dozen times) and had he stepped into the ring with either Klitschko brother there's no way he would see the final bell. He outweighed Cooper by 20 pounds and Cooper had a 50% KO rate, so he wasn't all that powerful...but he put Ali on the floor. The men who knocked Wlad down were all huge, bigger and stronger than Ali and certainly bigger than Cooper or Banks.

Here's another fellow who can't judge a fighter's intangibles because he is so preoccupied with gaping at weights on Boxrec. Ali gets dropped by Banks and Cooper - therefore Klitschko pulverises him. Why? Because of the numbers next to their names on Boxrec.

David Haye got dropped heavily, very heavily, by a 168lb Lolenga Mock. Using the above poster's logic there's no way he could survive Wlad K. But he did. He went 12 rds and was never even hurt. So none of the above essay on the weight of Banks and Cooper means anything.

Ali didn't go down in 69 rounds versus born punchers like Liston, Foreman, Norton and Shavers, but Cooper knocked him down and that settles the argument, apparently. A remarkable analysis.

[Tuan_Jim]

Ah ha, Rain Man is back waving his sheet of stats, to the sound of much laughter.

You're talking about boxers who have to chisel their body down to make weight and applying their practice to heavyweights who don't have to make weight. There's the first glaring hole in your confused 'theory'. The notion that Wlad K, Tony Thompson, Kubrat Pulev, Pianeta, Wach, Chagaev et al have stepped onto the scales worked down to some fine, svelte, precise figure and need to rush off and rehydrate is nonsense.

The second glaring hole in your confused 'theory' is that with Larry Holmes's challengers you have singled out the weights they were when they made their pro debuts, often as 19, 20 or 21 year olds, and assumed because they weighed that then, as boys, they could achieve the same weight years later, when fighting Larry Holmes as men, in the 215-220 range. That's Berbick, Spoon, Cooney, Snipes if anyone wants to consult the records. He's talking about them on their debuts as kids fresh out the amateurs.

To summarise your theory, Larry Holmes's challengers could have all worked down to 200lb, losing 15lbs they didn't have to lose, and despite being in top shape, because. . . . Well, this is where I struggle. But there's a 'theory' in there somewhere, apparently.

[Tuan_Jim]

For the record. Larry Holmes's opponents "typically fleshy physiques."

Bey, Jones, and then, er, er. . . . There's 18 more men but . . . . fleshy ones?

If you consider the fact that in Larry Holmes’ era, weigh-ins took place on the day of the fight itself, coupled with their typically fleshy physiques, it’s not unreasonable to suggest that the vast majority of his opponents would have campaigned as cruiserweights if they were active today.

[Tuan_Jim]

"Not fat"



"Not fat"

[/quote]

"Not fat"



"Not fat"



I could go on.

It's strange, David Bey and Leroy Jones are anamolies on Larry Holmes's record. On Wladimir, it's David Haye and Bryant Jennings. But Wladimir's opponents are "not fat", according to some.

[Tuan_Jim]

They competed below 200lb when they were kids fresh out of the amateurs. You can see this clearly. If you're choosing to ignore the basic fact that teenagers grow into adults then you are worse than imagined.

[Tuan_Jim]

"When we consider weight alone". . . . Haven't you debased yourself enough on this thread? Why do you keep doing this to yourself?

Bryant Jennings, David Haye, Ibragimov. 'Small heavies' by your reckoning. Wlad K couldn't hurt them, couldn't stop them, couldn't put them down. I guess he must be feather fisted using your 'weight alone' line of logic? Suggesting Larry Holmes was feather fisted once again underlines the impression of many people on this thread that you haven't seen the fights you discuss, can't debate fighter intangibles, and stay glued to the numbers on Boxrec, which has again and again been pointed out to you is a blind alley.

I'm going to try force an epiphany with you and then I am finished with this drivel. Tomorrow night Mayweather and Pac will box at 147. They have both boxed at 130. Do you think therfore they could make 130 now? They have made it in the past. And a 17lb weight drop is exactly what you have suggested Holmes and his kin perform in this thread. So I ask, should Mayweather and Pacman drop down to 130, 'and then rehydrate' to 146?