We are responsible

[Yes We Can]

I follow a sport called boxing. If someone boxes well, I enjoy the performance. I manage to put all the outside stuff to one side for a while when the bell goes.

Terry,

His name is Brian Moore. He is a respected boxing Journalist. He and his negativity is likely the exact reason boxing will remain a niche sport. He is also lightsoot. Which means very little to me. But he is clearly correct. Actually he is in some parts, but we all know the fight should have happened 5 years ago, much like Lennox & Tyson, Leonard & Hagler, Tyson & Holyfield....

I thought Lightsoot is/was Ben Carey. In that case, wotcha, Ben, long time no speak, but I disagree about there being nothing of note to enjoy in the fight. That right uppercut late on, the jabs (sometimes doubled), rights to the body (although some borderline), spinning off, the counter left hooks (not enough of them, though) and the lead rights hands.

I personally believe Floyd has declined more than Manny. years ago Pac would have been Hatton'ed. there was a point mid rounds where Floyd caught him with a counter left near the corner and i envisioned a similar ending, but alas he just didnt have the sharpness to do it.

[Brian Moore]

I follow a sport called boxing. If someone boxes well, I enjoy the performance. I manage to put all the outside stuff to one side for a while when the bell goes.

Terry,

His name is Brian Moore. He is a respected boxing Journalist. He and his negativity is likely the exact reason boxing will remain a niche sport. He is also lightsoot. Which means very little to me. But he is clearly correct. Actually he is in some parts, but we all know the fight should have happened 5 years ago, much like Lennox & Tyson, Leonard & Hagler, Tyson & Holyfield....

I thought Lightsoot is/was Ben Carey. In that case, wotcha, Ben, long time no speak, but I disagree about there being nothing of note to enjoy in the fight. That right uppercut late on, the jabs (sometimes doubled), rights to the body (although some borderline), spinning off, the counter left hooks (not enough of them, though) and the lead rights hands.

Cheers Terry, hope you're well. Ok, well we'll have to agree to disagree on the 'sweet' science element but I find Mayweather an acquired taste. I do agree with those (not sure if it was yourself or others) who have criticised Manny for a desperately disappointing performance. The subsequent fall out that his team failed to flag his shoulder injury to certain key people draws more unwarranted attention on Saturday.

[Brian Moore]

I follow a sport called boxing. If someone boxes well, I enjoy the performance. I manage to put all the outside stuff to one side for a while when the bell goes.

Terry,

His name is Brian Moore. He is a respected boxing Journalist. He and his negativity is likely the exact reason boxing will remain a niche sport. He is also lightsoot. Which means very little to me. But he is clearly correct. Actually he is in some parts, but we all know the fight should have happened 5 years ago, much like Lennox & Tyson, Leonard & Hagler, Tyson & Holyfield....

I'm trying to express some passion and disappointment. Negativity? I disagree. I just want the sport to be represented in the best light and, unlike others, I do want the general public to also be captivated by it.

[Datsue]

He’s definitely not TBE or even close: Hearns, Duran and Leonard would have handled him and I’d even give Vernon Forrest and Tszyu a chance, especially Forrest. And they’re only recent names.

But the only time Mayweather would've got in the ring with Forrest would be in the couple of minutes between Vernon getting capped & expiring.

[Yes We Can]

I'm trying to express some passion and disappointment. Negativity? I disagree. I just want the sport to be represented in the best light and, unlike others, I do want the general public to also be captivated by it.

The general public WERE captivated by it, and they will be captivated again by the next megafight, be it Froch, Haye, Wlad, Fury, Brook , Frampton etc.

its always the same, they get caught on the hook and then released when it is found not to be like rocky II in every match up. Mayweather is not the best visual fighter, this wasn't ever hidden and still people bought into it.

For the right personalities and talents there will always be an intrigue into the sport from the general public, that is a fact. They will always buy into it.

[misterpunch]

I didn't see it - and i wont now bother. i called the outcome - most average punters did. now let me get on with my life

[Datsue]

I didn't see it - and i wont now bother. i called the outcome - most average punters did. now let me get on with my life

Probably the most sensible sentiment aired thus far regarding the entire affair, tbh.

PS: & this is not to denigrate the long-shot punting of people like Mr Houston (who I'd trust with my betting money in a second, were I a betting man). There were lots of reasons for predicting a win for Manny but the general assessment was, well, exactly what transpired.

[hitman_hatton1]

He’s definitely not TBE or even close

unbeaten in 18 yrs.

he's had 2 close fights in his entire career.

at 35 whitaker was getting beat up by trinidad.

mayweather boxes rings around canelo in his mid 30's.

time to start giving this guy some credit methinks.

[Emmseegee]

I am by nowhere near enough of a boxing anorak to go into great details of why and how fighters of the past would have destroyed mayweather and neither am i delusional enough to think that Mayweather would have retired 80-0 if he fought in the yesteryears, One thing I do believe however is that he's the most gifted fighter of his generation, most entertaining? no although i do enjoy watching him fight.

Im not saying that Mayweather would have beaten any of the past greats but I certainly don't think he would have been embarrassed by any of them. He has a lot of qualities that would have made him a top fighter in any era. Not a chance he would have retired undefeated but there is no doubt in my mind that he would have been a top fighter in any era of boxing.

[hitman_hatton1]

then leave out the even close bit and i might let u off.

[powderPuff]

It's ok the next superstar isnt far off I reckon Terrance Crawford will be the man and would gladly pay to watch him fight

[stujones]

then leave out the even close bit and i might let u off.

I can't. He's not close, in my opnion, although largely because of the era he's lived through.

It's interesting Terry, watching Floyd's career tail off I started to reminisce with my old forum history (boxingranks) and chatting to people who have seemingly long disappeared from the boxing forum scene. I remember the debates of who the GOAT was with these guys (all highly knowledgeable) and I used to champion Leonard and used to get condemned a fair amount..... why?? Because of the era he lived in..... sounds ridiculous, but actually these guys made some great arguments.

Leonard's stop start career was always going to hold him back but if we are being brutal about Leonard's career we could say the only top drawer fighters that he beat at their absolute peak were Thomas Hearns fight 1 and Wilfred Benitez..... Duran was not 80% the fighter at 147 compared to 135 (any familiarity with the Floyd critics comments re Hatton?) and then we have a clearly worn Hagler at Middleweight. His history making 5 weight title fights was against Donny Lalonde and whilst he had some other decent wins, really the likes of Kalule are far from Superfight material.

When I read negative posts here about Floyd, I often respond with a "whatever Floyd does he cannot win" and even though there were lots of nay sayers BEFORE this fight - 1) Pacquaio and Floyd were the same size 5 years ago - but no one mentioned that when this fight was first mooted and Pac was at his peak - but yet when the ink dried off the signature in 2015 - Floyd's fighting a much smaller man. and 2) Yes, Pac might not be the same force as he was - but he's still a pretty damn good fighter as his wins have shown. I wonder if Floyd beat a 2008 Pacquiao would he get the credit he deserves or would the nay sayers blame the size etc.

My point is yes, we can condemn the era he has fought in...... but then we can do that to many fighters who I think you would feel are "close" to being the best ever. I know I'm going to do a cardinal sin here..... but Hagler's middleweight reign was hardly a whose who of all time greats (particularly peak all time greats) in the grand scheme of things.

Whilst Mayweather did not have the competition of the likes of Ali and this might hold his claim to being TBE into disregard..... I feel skill wise and talent wise..... he just might be. I'd certainly have him now ahead of my idol Leonard in terms of pure talent (not necessarily ranking), although since my days on boxingranks I've seen more of Ray Robinson - and I think it is a toss of a coin between them..... but back to my point if it possible to pick apart Leonard and Hagler's lack of peak great fighters wins but yet they would be in the "running" for being TBE, then perhaps using the lack of competition in a fighters era is a bit of a moot point and not needed when comparing across era's..... another example, I think Wlad has shown enough skills etc to be regarded in discussion when considering all time great Heavyweights - irrespective of his lack of competition, but for me it is not his lack of competition that prevents him from being considered in the top 3 - it is his clear chinks in his armour that you feel would be easily exposed if he fought those ranked ahead of him. With Mayweather, I'm not sure what Sugar Ray Leonard would bring to the table that I think "ah yes, he definitely beats him".

So IMO, I think the claims for Floyd being TBE could be valid.... I certainly wouldn't just shrug my shoulders in disbelief to anyone who thinks he is..... he is that good.

[Shirow]

Is Brian Moore using the Bnovelist tactic to sparking debate? (BNovelist posts ridiculous threads on the current forum and then posters pull his points apart in between giving him comedic abuse - you know him, don't pretend you never read over there).

The initial post (and attitude was pretty rank) but a couple of the posts in response were very good.

It doesn't seem so obvious to me that boxing desperately need more casual fans to contribute to the wellbeing of the sport because if the paying public can't generate multi hundred million purses the big fights will dry up as boxers will not feel it's worth it. Haymon has a big wake up call coming for any boxers that do but that's another story.

The casual fans will always watch the biggest fight in the sport because of the prestige of a big event and the publicity. Most of them will have forgotten the fairly unmemorable main event but that wasn't the point it was the build up that counted and the next time a fight gets a similar build up they'll be there again.
How many viewers only watch tennis at Wimbledon but will stop watching because of a boring final one year?

It's not the boxing purists/our duty to recruit people who aren't interested in boxing to watch the biggest fights. Casual fight fans want action so we could help by pointeing them in the direction of the most exciting fighters not the best.
This will make them into more regular boxing viewers and when the broadcasters notice the increase in numbers we might see the most exciting boxers being given more/bigger opportunities over the best fighters. Would casual fans seeing more Gattis or more Mayweathers increase their interest?

[Mensa07]

So IMO, I think the claims for Floyd being TBE could be valid.... I certainly wouldn't just shrug my shoulders in disbelief to anyone who thinks he is..... he is that good.

agreed, he's right up there at the top table for me. His resume is ridiculously strong, and you could probably count the number of ROUNDS (not fights) he's lost in his entire career using 2 hands (give or take a thumb or two). You can make a credible (awesome) matchup with FMJ vs anybody from history: SRR, SRL, whoever.

[ALI]

So IMO, I think the claims for Floyd being TBE could be valid.... I certainly wouldn't just shrug my shoulders in disbelief to anyone who thinks he is..... he is that good.

agreed, he's right up there at the top table for me. His resume is ridiculously strong, and you could probably count the number of ROUNDS (not fights) he's lost in his entire career using 2 hands (give or take a thumb or two). You can make a credible (awesome) matchup with FMJ vs anybody from history: SRR, SRL, whoever.

I agree with the points you raise, the problem is with the fighters he did not face, or did not face at the right times. His recent wins over Alvarez and Pacquiao have done a lot to rectify that, but his record will always be tainted due to his cherry picking, albiet cherry picking of elite oponents.

[Mensa07]

So IMO, I think the claims for Floyd being TBE could be valid.... I certainly wouldn't just shrug my shoulders in disbelief to anyone who thinks he is..... he is that good.

agreed, he's right up there at the top table for me. His resume is ridiculously strong, and you could probably count the number of ROUNDS (not fights) he's lost in his entire career using 2 hands (give or take a thumb or two). You can make a credible (awesome) matchup with FMJ vs anybody from history: SRR, SRL, whoever.

I agree with the points you raise, the problem is with the fighters he did not face, or did not face at the right times. His recent wins over Alvarez and Pacquiao have done a lot to rectify that, but his record will always be tainted due to his cherry picking, albiet cherry picking of elite oponents.

I'd like to have seen Margarito about 5 years ago. I'd like to have seen Leonard/Pryor, but I don't see SRL's legacy as tarnished because it didnt happen.

[palooka]

I doubt very much if SRR or Greb had the same amount of money available as Floyd has they would have faced the very best and they wouldn't have boxed 100's of times. They boxed so often and against the hardest competition because they had little choice and because they needed the money. If any of the all time greats were in the situation that Floyd Mayweather is in I doubt they'd act differently to him - they weren't stupid men and neither is Floyd.

[ALI]

I doubt very much if SRR or Greb had the same amount of money available as Floyd has they would have faced the very best and they wouldn't have boxed 100's of times. They boxed so often and against the hardest competition because they had little choice and because they needed the money. If any of the all time greats were in the situation that Floyd Mayweather is in I doubt they'd act differently to him - they weren't stupid men and neither is Floyd.

Maybe your right, but thats all speculation and does not change the facts.

[palooka]

There are a few salient points about pro boxing, one I'd that it is a dangerous way to make a living and that damage accumulated over a career can ruin a boxers health later. Another point is that money is very important, if it wasn't so important excellent boxers would stay amateur and box for medals and trophies. I appreciate that I speculated regarding Greb and SRR - maybe they would have chosen to box the hardest men in their divisions numerous times for the fun of it, even when they were wealthy men.

[stujones]

Yes Ali, but should we be disregarding a fighter just SIMPLY because of the era he has lived. It's not as if Mayweather is doing a Delroy Leslie and keeping an undefeated record and world title by fighting bums - he is fighting just about the best available - and making them look silly.

He cannot help his era is not littered with all time greats.... as Klitchsko cannot as cannot Ricardo Lopez. As with Mayweather, if someone does want to make a serious claim that Lopez was the greatest ever, and many Mexican's think he lies high in the debate - then that is fair enough with me.

Mayweather might not have fought any fellow "top 100 fighters of all time" in their absolute pomp (weight and age). Although fought at least 3 (at least) closish to their pomp. That is actually comparable to Hagler - maybe he fought 1 in their absolute pomp who is a fellow top 100 fighters of all time (Hearns) - but he only fought 3 total (like Mayweather) and the other 2 were definitely not in their pomp and it could be argued that Hearns was not nearly as effective at Middle as Welter.... but yet the Media and fight fans consider Hagler as this all conquering champion who fought and beat the absolute best. No one would question Hagler's resume if someone suggested he was the GOAT.

I don't think Era and resume is necessary the be all and end all when looking at ability - sure obviously if Mayweather had a resume similar to Delroy Leslie then yes you could question - but he fought some fantastic names.

If for Mayweather's last fight he steps up to fight Andre Ward - there would still be criticisms (oh Ward is inactive).

Margarito???? The guy couldn't beat Santos - so why not Santos.

[Emmseegee]

If Mayweather fought in the 'golden years' then I reckon he would have fitted in perfectly.

Same day weigh in's would suit someone who always appears to have fought quite close to his natural weight.
15 rounds would suit a man who seems to improve as the rounds pass by and who also conserves energy well. (Does as little as possible)
Fighting regularly would suit someone who doesn't take much punishment.
Also, Im led to believe that it was more common for men to beat up their women in they days.

Would he have retired unbeaten....unlikely
Would he have been a world champion... Very likely
Would he have been competitive with every other fighter in his chosen division... very likely.

[Ezzard]

If we want to continue with the sport after Saturday night then we must come to terms with a future that will be filled with Floyd Mayweather duplicates. Money has taken the blueprint designed by Roy Jones and elevated his subscription channel, sanctioning body sponsored method of low risk, high reward mega fights to a level that was once, not long ago, impossible.

Every fighter, manager and promoter knows that Greatness is now something that can be constructed - and we're all the worse off for it.

Got to agree with the sentiment... Especially the bit about Jones...

[JC]

agreed, he's right up there at the top table for me. His resume is ridiculously strong, and you could probably count the number of ROUNDS (not fights) he's lost in his entire career using 2 hands (give or take a thumb or two). You can make a credible (awesome) matchup with FMJ vs anybody from history: SRR, SRL, whoever.

I rate Mayweather, but that's nonsense.

[ALI]

Yes Ali, but should we be disregarding a fighter just SIMPLY because of the era he has lived..

No, certainly not in Mayweathers case anyway, but thats not the point anyway. There are to many fighters he either 1) did not fight, or 2) fought to late or at the wrong weight. Almost everytime Mayweather fights he 'could' be fighting someone deemed to be a better challenge, someone the fans would have preffered, and thats the crux of it.

Mayweather might not have fought any fellow "top 100 fighters of all time" in their absolute pomp (weight and age). Although fought at least 3 (at least) closish to their pomp. .

Who you got there, Pacquiao, ?, ?.

[stujones]

Oscar and Mosley for me are definitely in the top 100 boxers of all time.