Hatton - Mayweather in hindsight

[jamesmcdonnell]

Joe "TMT" Cortez removed the small chance that Ricky had in that fight.

The Nevada state, Las Vegas and in particular the MGM hotel chain need their big fights, and having the local American guy win at all costs was abundantly clear from the first bell.

He absolutely stank and ruined the flow on purpose. He let Mayweather get away with murder, chucking in the forearms and elbows.

Yes, that was completely biased refereeing - not saying Hatton would have won, but he would certainly have been more competitive, and probably wouldn't have ended up getting knocked out due to desperation. Hatton was not allowed to work on the inside, and Floyd was allowed to foul with complete impugnity.

[Dixonian]

Cortez was an utter disgrace in the Hatton-Mayweather fight. He had a massive influence on the way that fight unfolded.

[Counter-puncher]

I think it bears repeating that, when we have seen at least a dozen fighters semi-sleepwalk their way through the last 4-6 rounds, unable to decode the Floyd puzzle and unwilling to get smacked down trying to force their way through it to win:

At least Hatton was prepared to go balls to the wall. Fair fvcking play. All those hyperbolic estimations of Mannys unquenchable fighting spirit really need to be reassessed in the context of someone who really was prepared to go out on his shield.

Thoughts?

In nearly 10 years over 13 fights, only Victor Ortiz and Hatton failed to hear the final bell.

Indeed

My point is to ask why? And to suggest that plenty of fighters end up taking the route that makes their survival likely but their victory impossible.

Even Castillo, it is worth noting, failed to push the pace of the fight, in the later rounds of the rematch, when he pretty clearly.needed to show.more.urgency. Castillo was as tough as they come. If even he was dissuaded from really taking it to Floyd I think it underlines both floyds ability to time and hurt guys who rush him tecklessley, and hattons bravery in doing.so regardless.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I think it bears repeating that, when we have seen at least a dozen fighters semi-sleepwalk their way through the last 4-6 rounds, unable to decode the Floyd puzzle and unwilling to get smacked down trying to force their way through it to win:

At least Hatton was prepared to go balls to the wall. Fair fvcking play. All those hyperbolic estimations of Mannys unquenchable fighting spirit really need to be reassessed in the context of someone who really was prepared to go out on his shield.

Thoughts?

In nearly 10 years over 13 fights, only Victor Ortiz and Hatton failed to hear the final bell.

Indeed

My point is to ask why? And to suggest that plenty of fighters end up taking the route that makes their survival likely but their victory impossible.

Even Castillo, it is worth noting, failed to push the pace of the fight, in the later rounds of the rematch, when he pretty clearly.needed to show.more.urgency. Castillo was as tough as they come. If even he was dissuaded from really taking it to Floyd I think it underlines both floyds ability to time and hurt guys who rush him tecklessley, and hattons bravery in doing.so regardless.

I agree - Floyd's punchpower is underrated - it's the same with so many 'non-punching' world champs, people always wonder why people don't swarm all over them throwing tonnes of punches, and the truth is that getting hit hard with accurate counters deters them from doing so.

I remember some fighter - whose name escapes me now, saying the same about Sven Ottke, that he hit deceptively hard with the jab and with the counter shots - no world class fighter gets there with absolutely zero power, it's virtually impossible as you simply cannot keep top class fighters honest without being able to hurt them a little when they try and come in.

[Counter-puncher]

I always suspected it, though forgot it briefly in the buildup to the Hatton fight. But think, Castillo, as big and tough as they come at 135, outweighing Floyd by half a stone at least, I mean he kindof.lived by the notion of give one to take one. But he wasn't coming forward like a train against the fit 2nd fight Floyd. I guess giving one to take four, none to take one, etc, wasn't an equation he fancied. And Floyd definitely got his respect witht those fast sneaky right hands. Same as Oscar, god knows how much bigger in the ring, enough of a puncher to still be respectable even at 154, I mean surely he had nothing to lose, right, just dig in and let his hands go.....

[Counter-puncher]

Interesting about Ottke though, hes certainly not an obvious inclusion in the discussion.

[Counter-puncher]

Just rewatching Castillo 2 now, a decent candidate for Floyds best performance I m o.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Interesting about Ottke though, hes certainly not an obvious inclusion in the discussion.

Yes, precisely why I included him - even he had pop on his shots.

Like you say, nobody wants to get hit repeatedly, just to land one, and more to the point, find that when they do land, the blow is either a glancing one, or has no effect on your opponent.

Pacquaio did land a few meaty shots on Mayweather, and Floyd just shrugged them off - which must be very disconcerting.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I always suspected it, though forgot it briefly in the buildup to the Hatton fight. But think, Castillo, as big and tough as they come at 135, outweighing Floyd by half a stone at least, I mean he kindof.lived by the notion of give one to take one. But he wasn't coming forward like a train against the fit 2nd fight Floyd. I guess giving one to take four, none to take one, etc, wasn't an equation he fancied. And Floyd definitely got his respect witht those fast sneaky right hands. Same as Oscar, god knows how much bigger in the ring, enough of a puncher to still be respectable even at 154, I mean surely he had nothing to lose, right, just dig in and let his hands go.....

I remember that right hand counter that Floyd landed off the ropes, think it was around round 6, which was an absolute peach of a shot, by far the best shot of the entire fight, and Oscar looked visibly shaken, physically, and mentally by the force of the shot.

[Counter-puncher]

Fighting someone who is clearly better than you is a demoralising experience all round.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Yeah, there wasn't really any department where Pacquaio had an advantage, well, there was one, his combination punching, but that was immediately nullified by Floyd's movement and defensive skills, you can't land a 4 punch combo on a guy who is never really in range.

After that, what hope did Pacquaio have, rush in like a bull and get picked off - and quite possibly, stopped.

[Counter-puncher]

, it's like two cars colliding head on (if you get what I mean). This discourages them from coming forward, so instead they just follow him around like a lost, stunned puppy.

Ha, I missed this but its nicely put, the lost puppy analogy.

[Counter-puncher]

Like a cat raking a spaniel with a 4slash combination to the nose and the spaniel just looking hurt and confused for a few seconds, then trying to go to play and getting the cat's paw shoeshine to the nose all over again. The average mayweather fight defined. Albeit hes got wrestling tricks- and plenty of em- I don't recall seeing in too many cats.

[Counter-puncher]

I always thought Margarito would have been a handful at 147, no matter how limited he could be. He wasn't scared of taking a punch or walking onto one to land a couple.

Shit, missed this too. If cotton couldn't discourage margarito I don't know how Floyd, talent disparity between him and cotto notwithstanding, would manage it.

[crusader]

My point is to ask why? And to suggest that plenty of fighters end up taking the route that makes their survival likely but their victory impossible.

Even Castillo, it is worth noting, failed to push the pace of the fight, in the later rounds of the rematch, when he pretty clearly.needed to show.more.urgency. Castillo was as tough as they come. If even he was dissuaded from really taking it to Floyd I think it underlines both floyds ability to time and hurt guys who rush him tecklessley, and hattons bravery in doing.so regardless.

I think opponents usually fail to fight balls to the wall mainly because they find it so discouraging to hardly land anything of note while also being hit with clear counters which they probably realise are being scored against them. Hopkins hasn't scored a stoppage in 17 fights but his opponents react the same way, and like Floyd I think it's due far more to skill than power. I'd say from my own experience as a boxer there was nothing more discouraging than having a highly skilled opponent repeatedly hit me while I could hardly touch them, even if their power wasn't notable. Obviously that's anecdotale, but to me Floyd's opponents seem more discouraged because of his skill than weary because of his power, and everyone he's fought for over a decade has clearly been hurt more by other people.

You mention the Castillo fight, but also note that it was one of the few times when an opponent hit Floyd regularly, and in my opinion the only time someone actually outlanded him even though he often hit Castillo too; that's the type of success that would make opponents far more likely to increase their activity even if they were being frequently hit. This is a bit of a chicken or egg situation, but in my view it's largely the skill that leads to the reluctance to throw, and in the cases of Hopkins and Floyd that reluctance seems apparent nearly immediately, even during slow early stages when those two are doing little more than skillfully feinting or moving, making me doubt that it mainly sets in once an opponent has been stung.

I agree - Floyd's punchpower is underrated - it's the same with so many 'non-punching' world champs, people always wonder why people don't swarm all over them throwing tonnes of punches, and the truth is that getting hit hard with accurate counters deters them from doing so.

I remember some fighter - whose name escapes me now, saying the same about Sven Ottke, that he hit deceptively hard with the jab and with the counter shots - no world class fighter gets there with absolutely zero power, it's virtually impossible as you simply cannot keep top class fighters honest without being able to hurt them a little when they try and come in.

I see people assert that Floyd's power is underrated so often that I don't see how it could be. He's not featherfisted, but given how frequently he lands flush shots yet fails to stop and seriously hurt opponents it seems clear to me that his power is subpar, and I raised my eyes when I saw the suggestion that going the distance with him is considered a moral victory; a lot of people are getting moral victories then! Hopkins' opponents drop their workrates significantly when they fight him, so are they looking for moral victories too even though he hasn't scored a stoppage in 17 fights? Is it a moral victory when so many people are doing it?

Sure, Floyd doesn't pursue his opponents much, but when did that become a precondition to hurt people or knock them down? Fighters often do that type of damage with counters, which Floyd lands very regularly, and everyone he's beaten for more than a decade was clearly hurt significantly more by other opponents (Khan took about a minute to drop Maidana, so it's not like he needed to walk him down and go bombs away for a sustained period).

[Counter-puncher]

You've misunderstood my meaning on the moral victory mate, or should I say, I didn't put it clearly enough.

I don't mean its a moral victory to survive Floyds power, just that some opponents were happy enough not to press the fight more and then claim they did enough to win, claim the moral victory, at the end.

[crusader]

Fair enough. I know that many of his opponents have suggested post-fight that he ran (even though he still gets the better of nearly everyone when he fights in-range with his feet set), as if they otherwise would've won. Maybe it sets in after a certain point that they're not going to beat him, and hence they take fewer chances because the more they get hit the harder it becomes to fool themselves and others into thinking that they lost because he didn't want to engage them.

[Counter-puncher]

Fair enough. I know that many of his opponents have suggested post-fight that he ran (even though he still gets the better of nearly everyone when he fights in-range with his feet set), as if they otherwise would've won. Maybe it sets in after a certain point that they're not going to beat him, and hence they take fewer chances because the more they get hit the harder it becomes to fool themselves and others into thinking that they lost because he didn't want to engage them.

exactly so

[bigjack]

As with all highly skilled fighters,it's their superb timing and accuracy that stops people steam rolling them,i don't think it's the fear of getting ko'd it's the fact the punches will most probably land bang on target,numerous times and that hurts and discourages them eventually.

[Happy Slapper]

I'll probably get rinsed for this, but the Hatton that beat Tsyzu that night and at 140lbs beats Mayweather. I've always thought that.

At 147, never, and on most of Ricky's other nights, probably not, but that night he wasn't being denied and would have outworked Floyd.

[Emmseegee]

I'll probably get rinsed for this, but the Hatton that beat Tsyzu that night and at 140lbs beats Mayweather. I've always thought that.

At 147, never, and on most of Ricky's other nights, probably not, but that night he wasn't being denied and would have outworked Floyd.

I don't think any version of Hatton would have beaten Mayweather. Hatton himself says that he couldn't have hit him with a handful of confetti. (Among one of his better poor jokes)

The strange thing is that a better version of Hatton would likely have been more competitive with Pacquiao than with Mayweather even although Pacquiao blew him away in a more convincing fashion. Some of Mayweathers best highlights come from his fight against Hatton just because his style was so tailor made for him. Just like some of the best defensive work you can see from him came against Marquez who was throwing and missing with combinations making him look even slippier than normal.

At the time I thought Hatton stood a chance, now I kinda laugh at myself for believing it but like others have said....
Hatton deserves credit for the way he went out. He left it all in the ring that night.