Dempsey and Marciano...overrated?

[DaveyMac]

No Crease, what I mean is I didn't rank them subjectively. They get points for a certain level. So for instance a champ is a 5, a champ making several defenses is a 10, a four rounder who doesn't fight 20 fights is a 1, most folks are a 2, a guy with more than 20 fights who won 2/3 and fought 40% at 10 rounds or more or who won 50 fights and fought 40% at 10 rounds or more is a 3.

And those are just some of the rules. It's more complicated but I've been drinking tonight and am not looking at it. But the idea is that people have points for winning at certain levels. EBU champ for instance is a 4.

Now I'm not saying it's perfect, that a there aren't 4's better than some 6's or what not, but it is objective and with a large amount of a data I think very meaningful, although I'd agree by no means conclusive.

That being said Rocky and Jack by the numbers did have far less career schedule numbers. And I think that is significant.

And right or wrong I'm positive it is more significant than some knee jerk racist bs from Duce.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Most of these guys outside of the top two for me could be moved up and down a bit. Especially Charles, Tyson and Marciano who I think there are real arguments for moving up, but this would be my top 20.

Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Harry Wills
Joe Frazier
Lennox Lewis
James J. Jeffries
Ezzard Charles
Mike Tyson
Rocky Marciano
Larry Holmes
Gene Tunney
Jack Johnson
Riddick Bowe
Floyd Patterson
Jack Dempsey
Sonny Liston
George Foreman
Max Schmeling
Jack Sharkey
Max Baer

Holyfield should certainly be over Tyson on any list.

[DaveyMac]

I was only doing retired guys so I didn't rank Evander at all.

[Broomhall]

Larry Holmes should be near the top of anyones list. Great fighter, great jab. Way above Marciano, Dempsey

The 21 year old Mike Tyson I think almost unbeatable.

Dempseys drew the colour line-why do that unless you are frightened of the opposition, Marciano struggled against ageing ex light heavies Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore.

[HomicideHenry]

Who did Dempsey fight on the way up? Really for a champ he fought almost nobody of real consequence. The biggest names on the list are really LHW's.

Ali fought much better guys on the way up. Frankly, Marciano didn't really fight many good fighters on the way up, but at least he did once he got the title. Dempsey basically retired to Hollywood once he got the title.

Dempsey split wins with the next to impossible Willie Meehan, who every great fighter of the time had issues with. He annihilated Fred Fulton, a long standing contender--- a man Jess Willard ducked--- in around fifteen seconds. He destroyed Carl Morris, another contender, a few times. He avenged his fluke loss to Fireman Jim Flynn--- an ex multi time title challenger. He also bested Gunboat Smith. He defeated Joe Bonds, a respectable fringe contender. Dempsey on the way up did ALOT to secure his position as the man to fight for the title.

While it is true he did little with the belt after winning it, he did so many exhibition matches, did so many movies and serials, etc. that one can argue that no one before or since him did as much to gain publicity around the heavyweight championship than he did. Mind you, Dempsey made more money in the Great Depression than Babe Ruth, and the President of The United States combined by a rather wide, large margin.

[Broomhall]

How can Jack Dempsey be overrated.

He was the most exciting fighter during his time.

And nobody ever accomplished what Rocky Marciano did.......... no one.

what? avoided Valdes, Liston, Machen and Patterson?

[Broomhall]

Mr. Broomhall,

I'm sure you were aware that Rocky Marciano was experiencing 'back problems', and was pretty much
forced to retire after the Archie Moore 'Title Defense' in September 1955.

At Age {32 1/2}, just exactly were the big money fights out there in early-1956.

None..........

Ill Duce, no need for the "Mr".....Sir would be fine.

I thought this was a good article

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/rocky.html

[Ambling Alp II]

Some of what is said in the article has some value, but some of it is not. The way the article ended, about if he was 48-1, he would n't be rated highly is nonsense. If he had lost a decision early in his career, and went 48-1, he would not get near the criticism that he gets. People are obsessed with the undefeated record and like to downgrade it.

The point about how many other fighters could have went 49-0 having fought Marciano's competition is silly. Of course some would be favored in all of these fights. but that is different from running the table and actually doing it. You have to not only be good, but you have to be consistent as well.

Marciano would have been the favorite against all of Joe Louis' opponents as well (not including himself obviously.). Louis lost to Schmeling; Marciano probably would have beat Schmeling. Does that automatically mean Marciano was better than Louis?
Marciano would have been the favorite against Hasim Rahman and Oliver McCall as well. Does that mean Marciano was automatically better than Lennox Lewis?

There are certain things you can criticize Marciano for legitimately. No he wasn't the best heavyweight of all time, but he was up there. He should also get credit for being consistent.

[TheWigwam]

I know it's blasphemy but I don't think either are more overrated than Lennox Lewis

I applaud you for saying that, sir.

I'm surprised that boxing fans these days are not more critical of Lennox Lewis and his career.

I think that it comes down to this perception that he was the last great unified Heavyweight Champ and as such it places him above and beyond the reach of analytical criticism.

I would rate Lennox as probably the most overrated Heavyweight Champ in history. He really wasn't the man some people on here make him out to be.

Thank you, I agree with the points you make.

[yancey]

Mr. Broomhall,

I'm sure you were aware that Rocky Marciano was experiencing 'back problems', and was pretty much
forced to retire after the Archie Moore 'Title Defense' in September 1955.

At Age {32 1/2}, just exactly were the big money fights out there in early-1956.

None..........

Ill Duce, no need for the "Mr".....Sir would be fine.

I thought this was a good article

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/rocky.html

Agree, good article.

[Broomhall]

Do Dempsey and Marciano deserve their status? Did both fighters benefit from white Americas need to have a "great" heavyweight champ following the great black heavyweights Johnson and Louis?

Both fighters where cleverly managed-did they avoid the best at the time-Dempsey rumoured to have drawn the colour line for example, and Marciano avoided Valdes, Machen etc

Larry Holmes got a lot of stick for famously saying that Marciano couldnt carry my jockstrap-but did he have a point?

Im sure that you have probably read by now in your reading endeavers of pugilistic history.
That Jack Johnson personally has been quoted on drawing the "Money Line' as his reason
for not defending the heavyweight belt against Sam Langford and any other top black contenders of the 1910's.
and also the Joe Louis's managers and promoter drew the"Colour line"
so that they(his managers and greedy promoter) wouldn't risk the belt from any of the top black challengers of the late 1930's
(i.e LeRoy Haynes,Tiger Jack Fox,Eddie Blunt).

Good points, well made......so would you say that both Johnson and Louis were also over rated?

[HomicideHenry]

How can Jack Dempsey be overrated.

He was the most exciting fighter during his time.

And nobody ever accomplished what Rocky Marciano did.......... no one.

what? avoided Valdes, Liston, Machen and Patterson?

#1- Nino Valdes was rather inconsistent in his performances, which cost him dearly. Mind you, Archie Moore defeated both Bob Baker and Nino Valdes to be the top contender. And, of course, Nino and Bob fought eachother and because the fight was so long, drug out, and boring the IBC felt neither man deserved a shot at Marciano--- back then merit and effort actually meant something, unlike today where it is strictly a number's game.

#2- Sonny Liston, at the time of Rocky Marciano's retirement, only had five or so fights. It wouldnt be for some time, either, would Liston develope into being the murderous puncher he would be reknowned for. At that time, he didn't have a single knockout to his resume. So, your reasoning is rather illogical. Liston wouldn't mean much of anything in boxing until 1958-1960. This was 1956, when he was just a pup.

#3- Eddie Machen, is more tied in along the lines of being someone that Patterson ducked. Liston, Patterson and Machen all developed into their own, quite a ways after Marciano's retirement. This is somewhat solidified by the fact that Eddie Machen was constantly in the press saying Patterson was out right ducking him--- and he fought Liston and Ingemar Johansson and others, in hot pursuit of Patterson. So again, your logic as to Marciano ducking Machen makes no sense.

#4- Floyd Patterson, in the months leading to Marciano's retirement, was still a light heavyweight. True, he had two fights at heavyweight by the time The Rock actually retired, but he was still in no strong position. His ranking as one of Marciano's "contenders" to square off for the vacant title, was more along the lines of a political move that was orchestrated by Cus D'Amato than anything else. Jim Norris of the IBC only wanted fighters he could control--- for Patterson to be in the title picture, he had to believe that Patterson would sign on with the IBC. Cus made him believe this would be so. Of course, when Patterson won the title--- Cus reneged on the deal, and I think only one IBC connected fighter ever fought Patterson. HOWEVER, little known fact in history is that while the IBC and others were combing the world for potential challengers to Marciano's title, The Rock did attempt to arrange a three round exhibition fight on Tuesday Night Fights with Patterson (then a light heavyweight), but the producers did not want a Marciano fight unless it was strictly for the title.

The only time Marciano showed interest in fighting any of these men was during the back and forth rivalry between Patterson and Johansson--- where Marciano was commentating one of the contests and said "We will see", when the co-commentator asked Marciano if he would ever make a comeback. According to Lou Duva, Marciano was in the process of training, and it was going to be for a $4,000,000 purse against the winner of the third Patterson/Johansson fight---- but it never came to be, because Cus D'Amato blocked the contest, because the fight was not necessarily in his hands and if he wasn't involved directly he didn't want Patterson involved. Instead, Patterson fought a string of relative unknowns like Roy Harris. Marciano, of course, never did make the comeback.

Another time, which is not as reliable as other Marciano legends, is that The Rock was a guest of honor and was alongside some reporters at Sonny Liston's training camp--- and one reporter asked Liston if he could of beaten Marciano in his prime, to which Liston said he would of knocked him out. Marciano overheard this exchange, climbed into the gym ring, took off his suit and demanded that Liston get in the ring right there and then to face him to prove if he could. Liston's handlers then had Liston leave the room. Allegedly from that moment on Marciano was highly critical of Liston--- and in truth he was, as he once prophetically stated that Liston was a bully, and if one were skilled enough, tough enough, or even fast enough--- if they stood up to him, Liston would mentally break and flat out quit in the ring. To which Muhammad Ali, did just that.

The only other time Marciano was brought up in potential comeback talks, was in the 1960's, when a Texas oil tycoon offered Marciano over $4,000,000 to comeback and fight Muhammad Ali--- to which SPORTS ILLUSTRATED famously wrote: "Forty Five is No Age For a White Hope," and of course Marciano never did come back to formally fight Ali--- though the two men famously did engaged in the well known, well storied "SUPER FIGHT" of 1969, which transpired about two months before Marciano's tragic death. Of course, those stories as to Marciano's prowess in the ring even at the age of 45 in a mock fight with Ali, is another story.

[shawnkemp804]

Lets call a spade of spade. Marciano and Dempsey were both white. So whites will hero worship them just like blacks do Floyd Mayweather. Neither Dempsey or Marciano were heavyweights so why keep putting them in the top anything heavyweights. Dempsey feasted off nobodies and so did Maricano. When your best wins are washed up Joe Louis who was only popular because of his lighter skin tone, washed up Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles and Jersey Joe Walcott then you have a problem. But hey he did beat up mob controlled 180 pound fighters and got gift wins over Ted Lowry and Roland LaStarza so he must be great.

[HomicideHenry]

The problem with Rocky, which wasnt his fault, was that he wasn't given no credit in his own time UNTIL he kayoed Moore. After that point he was finally recognized as being a great fighter, when before that time people would make statements like "He's no Louis, he's no Dempsey" and questioned his abilities and worth. Which is why so many people were astounded in disbelief when he announced his retirement after Moore, cus that was right when everyone finally accepted him as being great.

In my view, Marciano didn't duck anyone. Sure he could have fought Valdes or Baker, but, it was their own fault for being inconsistent or giving bad performances that knocked them out of the running--- back then if you looked like crap in there, you were punished. You wasnt pushed up the rankings even if you "won". You had to win convincingly and be exciting. As for others like Satterfield, he got caught with a shot and knocked himself out of contention--- and other leading contenders like Earl Walls retired rather than take on Marciano.

With Rocky, he's both under-rated and over-rated. He's hyped because of the 49-0, but he's also unappreciated because he defeated every man put in front of him, and in devestating fashion. Was he better than Dempsey or Frazier? I dont know, but Muhammad Ali thought Marciano was better than Smokin Joe and that has to mean something. He certainly is the most conditioned heavyweight of all time, with the highest work rate in history. Whether he was as powerful as some insisted, or as difficult to hit as some claimed, I don't know. What I do know is, he did what he had to do and he didn't lose.

[HomicideHenry]

Lets call a spade of spade. Marciano and Dempsey were both white. So whites will hero worship them just like blacks do Floyd Mayweather. Neither Dempsey or Marciano were heavyweights so why keep putting them in the top anything heavyweights. Dempsey feasted off nobodies and so did Maricano. When your best wins are washed up Joe Louis who was only popular because of his lighter skin tone, washed up Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles and Jersey Joe Walcott then you have a problem. But hey he did beat up mob controlled 180 pound fighters and got gift wins over Ted Lowry and Roland LaStarza so he must be great.

Whoa whoa whoa..... hold your horses there.... Archie Moore? Washed up when he fought Marciano?

You do realize Moore fought for nearly a decade AFTER THE FACT and was LHW champion for many years to come FOLLOWING THE MARCIANO FIGHT? Not even 4 months prior he decisioned NINO VALDES, and the year prior he stopped Bob Baker in 9 rounds. After Marciano, Moore's record was 38-3-2. That's the sort of record one could only HOPE to retire with. So before you make such statements, please ffs.... do your homework.

And don't get me started on Ezzard Charles either.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

I'm not sure about Marciano never bettered in a boxing match, Both were smallish heavyweight's Dempsey refused to fight black fighter's so with
that in mind and how many defence's he made and how long he was champ I'v come to the conclusion that Dempsey was somewhat over-rated
Marciano 49-0-43 KO'S still not convinced he was over-rated every-one had the reach on him and size but like TBE Mayweather sais
he [Marciano] always found a way to win people like to bring up the Walcott/Marciano 1 and point out how Marciano struggled and was trailing
when he landed SUSIE to stop Walcott people forget in my opinion how good Walcoott was come to think of it Jesey Joe was a very much
under-rated champion was dodged by many.........In my opinion Dempsey YES................Marciano NO..............

[Crease]

Marciano was cleverly managed for certain, but once he became a star it's hard to say he ducked anyone like Valdes or Machen as he only fought 11 fights after beating Louis and 5 of those were against Walcott, Charles and Moore.

Sometimes that fact is used as a criticism of The Rock, "he only beat old fighters" and the like... But in my view had he not fought them then he DEFINITELY would have been accused of ducking them. Especially in the case of the 2nd Charles fight and his final bout with Moore.

[Ambling Alp II]

I agree that he pretty much fought the best around. Machen was not even a top 10 contender yet when Marciano was the champion. Sure he could have fought Valdes in say 1954, but Valdes was always very beatable.
Of his 6 title defenses, only Cockell was not a top echelon fighter of the time.
Some people overrate Marciano, some underrate him. Same with Dempsey.

[HomicideHenry]

I agree that he pretty much fought the best around. Machen was not even a top 10 contender yet when Marciano was the champion. Sure he could have fought Valdes in say 1954, but Valdes was always very beatable.
Of his 6 title defenses, only Cockell was not a top echelon fighter of the time.
Some people overrate Marciano, some underrate him. Same with Dempsey.

It's more apt to say, of his 6 title defenses, only one was not against the number one contender.

Cockell was ranked number two. So, in reality, Marciano didn't fight someone who was bad by any means.

It does make me wonder, though, in retrospect if Rocky had a crystal ball and could see such comments made now, would he of fought (instead) Valdes, Baker and Satterfield rather than fight Cockell and others. Personally, I don't think so, because Rocky would of said (along these lines) "You honestly think Valdes was better than Charles?" and would of looked at you stupid.