Is Ali Underrated As A Puncher ?

[Seamus]

He's always had this reputation as a fighter who jabbed an opponent silly and then finished him off with lightening combinations, and I have heard some guys claim he didn't have one punch power. I've never argued that point before, but thinking about it recently, I came to the conclusion, that Yes, Ali is often underrated as a puncher, and his bouts with Liston I, Folley, Bonavena, Lyle, and I'll even throw in Foreman as well, showed that he had a pretty hard left hook and right cross.

[Syntax Error]

Ali's style did not lend itself to knocking people out.

Maybe if he dug his toes into the canvas & really let fly, he might have been more powerful, but even taking that into account, I don't think he was ever destined to be a puncher.

I believe that Ali's power, or lack of is rated about right.

[evrenb]

Ali's style did not lend itself to knocking people out.

Maybe if he dug his toes into the canvas & really let fly, he might have been more powerful, but even taking that into account, I don't think he was ever destined to be a puncher.

I believe that Ali's power, or lack of is rated about right.

Interesting that Dundee rated Ali as the strongest fighter he ever managed - a few of his opponents have said the same thing....

[Ambling Alp II]

When he did dig and and connect he had some power. Often he threw arms punches which normally did not have have a lot of power on them. However, he had such great speed and accuracy in his prime that he could hurt guys with arms punches that were lightning fast and right on the button.

Thought I would compare his power to other heavyweight champions:

He had better power than: Corbett, Hart, Burns, Sharkey, Braddock, Ellis, Leon and Michael Spinks. (Though on occasion some of them did land some great shots.)

He was about even with: Johnson, Willard, Tunney, Carnera, Charles, Patterson, Holmes, Norton, Douglas, and Holyfield. (Patterson and Norton probably had a slight edge on him.)

He had less power than Fitzsimmons, Jeffries, Dempsey, Schmeling, Baer, Louis, Walcott, Marciano, Johannson, Liston, Frazier, Foreman Tyson, Lewis, Moorer, and Bowe.

Of course heavyweight champions on average have more power than your typical fighter.

[Seamus]

I think two fights that really illustrate Ali's one punch power are his bouts with Bonavena and Lyle. Two very rugged guys who had never been stopped previously, when Ali, who hadn't looked particularly sharp against either man, suddenly caught the former with a left hook and the latter with right cross.

[ThatOne]

Ali's style did not lend itself to knocking people out.

Maybe if he dug his toes into the canvas & really let fly, he might have been more powerful, but even taking that into account, I don't think he was ever destined to be a puncher.

I believe that Ali's power, or lack of is rated about right.

Interesting that Dundee rated Ali as the strongest fighter he ever managed - a few of his opponents have said the same thing....

I believe Dundee was referring to his physical countenance and his ability to take a punch and physically maneuver around his opponent, not his specific punching power.

[yancey]

Ali's style did not lend itself to knocking people out.

Maybe if he dug his toes into the canvas & really let fly, he might have been more powerful, but even taking that into account, I don't think he was ever destined to be a puncher.

I believe that Ali's power, or lack of is rated about right.

^

This.

[ral]

"ShinCrossOver" quote from another site
04-07-2011, 11:45 AM

" F = ma (Force = mass times acceleration)

a = v1- v0 (velocity - initial velocity)
------- ----------------------
time time

Two boxers (Rocky and Drago). Rocky has smaller hands so his mass (m) is smaller than Drago's.

Lets assume their Force (F) are the exact same. With their difference in mass (m), it would mean that Rocky's acceleration with his punch is faster than Drago's to produce the same power. assuming that both are starting in a neutral position and throwing that punch, then the initial velocity (v0) is zero. So the acceleration is simply:

a = v / t (acceleration = velocity / time)

For Rocky's acceleration to be faster, he would have to increase his final velocity impact or decrease his time to throw that punch (or do both) in comparison to Drago.

----

So what? Basically what you all already know. Smaller hands/arms would need to be thrown faster (either in speed or shorter in time) to generate the same power as bigger hands/arms. If someone with bigger hands can throw the same punch with a faster velocity and/or in a shorter time, then that punch would be more powerful. This is assuming each boxer's reach is the exact same by the way. If it's different then calculating their power takes a bit more computing because you have to take into account the distance the fist has to travel for each boxer.

We aren't also taking into account energy dispersion either. bigger hands would disperse the energy in a larger area (let's say the bigger hand connects onto 3 ribs whereas the smaller hand connects onto 2 ribs).

Personally, I would think smaller hands would be slightly better IMO (probably cause i have small hands too lol). If you connect to a smaller area with the same force, you would produce more damage in that small area. The same force has a much better chance of breaking a rib if you hit two of them as oppose to 3 ribs. You'd need better accuracy though with smaller hands. Then again, the the size is really neglible anyway. Aren't you only suppose to connect with the pointing and middle finger knuckles most of the time when you punch anyway? "

Great post from another site. I'm not the author of this.. Just want to make sure you know that. I figure you have to do the math first the go to the deduction process. ral. I always thought Ali was way better puncher than he was given credit for..I wonder if there is anyway that we could factor in the element of not be able to track the mass with the eyes before and after impact to target and how this would affect the solution ?

"Hope I didn't confuse anyone here. I am an engineer. LOL."

[evrenb]

Ali's style did not lend itself to knocking people out.

Maybe if he dug his toes into the canvas & really let fly, he might have been more powerful, but even taking that into account, I don't think he was ever destined to be a puncher.

I believe that Ali's power, or lack of is rated about right.

Interesting that Dundee rated Ali as the strongest fighter he ever managed - a few of his opponents have said the same thing....

I believe Dundee was referring to his physical countenance and his ability to take a punch and physically maneuver around his opponent, not his specific punching power.

No he didn't mention specifically about punching power but he meant actual strength - other Ali opponents have also mentioned it. For pure punching - he is rated about correct I think. The way he set himself to punch didn't lend itself to punching hard. Also in latter years he suffered from bad hands.
His notable punces include - The left upperhook that dropped Bonavena, The whole of the Williams fight, the left hook that staggered Frazier in fight 2. The straight right that dropped Foreman, The Lyle right which set up the final flurry. Best of all the Miteff kayo ! ..(not mentioning Liston 2 )

[Datsue]

"ShinCrossOver" quote from another site
04-07-2011, 11:45 AM

" F = ma (Force = mass times acceleration)

a = v1- v0 (velocity - initial velocity)
------- ----------------------
time time

Two boxers (Rocky and Drago). Rocky has smaller hands so his mass (m) is smaller than Drago's.

Lets assume their Force (F) are the exact same. With their difference in mass (m), it would mean that Rocky's acceleration with his punch is faster than Drago's to produce the same power. assuming that both are starting in a neutral position and throwing that punch, then the initial velocity (v0) is zero. So the acceleration is simply:

a = v / t (acceleration = velocity / time)

For Rocky's acceleration to be faster, he would have to increase his final velocity impact or decrease his time to throw that punch (or do both) in comparison to Drago.

----

So what? Basically what you all already know. Smaller hands/arms would need to be thrown faster (either in speed or shorter in time) to generate the same power as bigger hands/arms. If someone with bigger hands can throw the same punch with a faster velocity and/or in a shorter time, then that punch would be more powerful. This is assuming each boxer's reach is the exact same by the way. If it's different then calculating their power takes a bit more computing because you have to take into account the distance the fist has to travel for each boxer.

We aren't also taking into account energy dispersion either. bigger hands would disperse the energy in a larger area (let's say the bigger hand connects onto 3 ribs whereas the smaller hand connects onto 2 ribs).

Personally, I would think smaller hands would be slightly better IMO (probably cause i have small hands too lol). If you connect to a smaller area with the same force, you would produce more damage in that small area. The same force has a much better chance of breaking a rib if you hit two of them as oppose to 3 ribs. You'd need better accuracy though with smaller hands. Then again, the the size is really neglible anyway. Aren't you only suppose to connect with the pointing and middle finger knuckles most of the time when you punch anyway? "

Great post from another site. I'm not the author of this.. Just want to make sure you know that. I figure you have to do the math first the go to the deduction process. ral. I always thought Ali was way better puncher than he was given credit for..I wonder if there is anyway that we could factor in the element of not be able to track the mass with the eyes before and after impact to target and how this would affect the solution ?

"Hope I didn't confuse anyone here. I am an engineer. LOL."

In that case, I pray to fvck that I don't ever stand on, walk under or come within five hundred yards of anything you have ever worked on, designed or even touched.

Good day.

[dempseyfire]

When he did dig and and connect he had some power. Often he threw arms punches which normally did not have have a lot of power on them. However, he had such great speed and accuracy in his prime that he could hurt guys with arms punches that were lightning fast and right on the button.

Thought I would compare his power to other heavyweight champions:

He had better power than: Corbett, Hart, Burns, Sharkey, Braddock, Ellis, Leon and Michael Spinks. (Though on occasion some of them did land some great shots.)

He was about even with: Johnson, Willard, Tunney, Carnera, Charles, Patterson, Holmes, Norton, Douglas, and Holyfield. (Patterson and Norton probably had a slight edge on him.)

He had less power than Fitzsimmons, Jeffries, Dempsey, Schmeling, Baer, Louis, Walcott, Marciano, Johannson, Liston, Frazier, Foreman Tyson, Lewis, Moorer, and Bowe.

Of course heavyweight champions on average have more power than your typical fighter.

?? I'd agree Ali's power is under-rated but to say it's about even with Norton, Patterson, Willard (who had genuine one punch power), and Johnson is going overboard. Also don't think he hit harder than Ellis or Sharkey.

Although funnily enough I'd rank his power over Holmes's, although not significantly.

[wouter]

Smaller hands/arms would need to be thrown faster (either in speed or shorter in time) to generate the same power as bigger hands/arms. If someone with bigger hands can throw the same punch with a faster velocity and/or in a shorter time, then that punch would be more powerful.

Punching is not the same as swinging hands around.

[Ambling Alp II]

When he did dig and and connect he had some power. Often he threw arms punches which normally did not have have a lot of power on them. However, he had such great speed and accuracy in his prime that he could hurt guys with arms punches that were lightning fast and right on the button.

Thought I would compare his power to other heavyweight champions:

He had better power than: Corbett, Hart, Burns, Sharkey, Braddock, Ellis, Leon and Michael Spinks. (Though on occasion some of them did land some great shots.)

He was about even with: Johnson, Willard, Tunney, Carnera, Charles, Patterson, Holmes, Norton, Douglas, and Holyfield. (Patterson and Norton probably had a slight edge on him.)

He had less power than Fitzsimmons, Jeffries, Dempsey, Schmeling, Baer, Louis, Walcott, Marciano, Johannson, Liston, Frazier, Foreman Tyson, Lewis, Moorer, and Bowe.

Of course heavyweight champions on average have more power than your typical fighter.

?? I'd agree Ali's power is under-rated but to say it's about even with Norton, Patterson, Willard (who had genuine one punch power), and Johnson is going overboard. Also don't think he hit harder than Ellis or Sharkey.

Although funnily enough I'd rank his power over Holmes's, although not significantly.

Patterson had the left hook, but really outside of Johannson, who did he really ever stop? He did deck Bonavena, but so did Ali.
Norton stopped best stoppage is Quarry. Ali did that as well. Norton did hurt Holmes. Stopped Bobick right away. Don't see how that makes him a lot bigger puncher than Ali.
Really don't see how Willard can be seen as a huge puncher. Where is the evidence?
Same with Johnson Where is the evidence?

Ellis and Sharkey landed the occasional nice shot, but really by heavyweight champion standards, they were weak punchers.

[ral]

Smaller hands/arms would need to be thrown faster (either in speed or shorter in time) to generate the same power as bigger hands/arms. If someone with bigger hands can throw the same punch with a faster velocity and/or in a shorter time, then that punch would be more powerful.

Punching is not the same as swinging hands around.

With all due respect wouter Are we saying Ali waved his hands around ? Or does apply somewhere else? I know he had that Flick Jab of his.. Maybe that's what you meant? Thanks for your help since I first showed up....

I do know quite a bit about punching and breaking and torque also shifting bodyweight and the transfer of power thru hip rotation getting the most Power at the end of striking area that will make impact. I sure would like to know exactly what you are referring to because I like to these types of problems and seeing them from different vantage points..

Oh, I did not write this equation out so you won't ever have to be near structure of mine or one I have touched This one could happen depending on where you are located.,, But my friend we never know who we're talking to, do we? And for all I know you could be a Jet Engineer and shut down the whole equation Which I did not write... I would be very interested if you could, because I'm here to learn not here to make enemies :)) Also, I would hate to tell you and embarrass you publicly but, I have a client list a mile long for over 45yrs...With the reference Documents from "The Names"... but that is irrelevant here... This is about the "Sweet Science"

[Seamus]

When Ali planted his feet, he hurt guys with very solid chins. I love the 3rd round vs Liston when Sonny get's a taste of Clay's power and finds out he's the real deal.

[Ambling Alp II]

I think Liston and some other opponents were surprised by hard he could hit. His strategy was usually to land a lot of punches and win rounds and wear down his opponents. He would be moving around, jabbing and then he would plant his feet and throw something hard.
He hurt Liston, and mentioned Williams, Bonavena and Lyle. He looked terrible against Lyle and turned it around when he had to.
He also had fights against Quarry, Foreman, Frazier, in which they did not go the distance. We can rationalize why this happened all they want, but he had to have some punching power to do this.

[ral]

but he had to have some punching power to do this.

Agreed .. I took the long way but when it comes down to that's what I was trying to get at...

[elmersalsa]

I believe that former The Ring Magazine chief editor, the late Nat Fleischer, rated the great Muhammad Ali/Cassius Clay as one the heavyweights greatest punchers.

I think Ali, had underrated punching power. He might not had the greats Joe Louis, Mike Tyson or George Foreman's power, but he could hit.

[ral]

This really is an interesting subject to me because it also can be equated to Martial Arts which demonstrates that speed and can increase and improve what we used to call explosive power... Hence breaking many many boards, cement etc...I have broken my hands and feet/toes etc a few times thinking "oh I can do that one, no prob". I worked as I have mentioned before in a very well known Gym, lol yrs & yrs ago in Westwood Ca
The owner Al Hinds was a Halfback for SC, some of the Rams used to come in, Youngblood, Dryer etc a lot of the UCLA & S.C. athletes along with some Olympic Athletes from that era Kate Schmitt, Javelin , actually we had a fellow instructor there Chuck Pranke tandem cyclist on the 1968 Olympic Team .. Dennis Tinerino 4 time Mr Universe.
We had World famous instructor Abbey "Pudgy" Stockton who was probably the first well know female lifter in the early days at Muscle Beach, Venice Ca. and her Husband Les Stockton..many more... Just so you understand that I really have been around this for a bit, worked there 5.5 yrs as an instructor...plus the other sports related activities..

I used to witness guys gals who were very lean no bulk no mass whatsoever and compare them to the Bulky. I could not believe the strength some of the leaner athletes generated compared to the others...I started really watching and talking, thinking and many times it came down to tendon strength, efficiency which generated explosive power...I in no way am negating brute strength, you just can't... It is as real as the other...I did follow Ali closely right from the Liston fight on... I had just about every article from the L.A. Times that was ever written about him up till about the mid 70's and I kept wondering why people were given this guy such a hard time...because he really did put some hurt to some tuff fighters...When it comes down to 1+1=2 he had Power.. He never was a Marciano, Frasier, Louis etc... so from that point of view I get the argument...but this speed element has to be part of the answer...different, but at the end can still create much damage...My dad met Ali when he was in Vegas with Ella and went into where he was training and he probably knew someone that got him in and introduced them... Years later when he told me "Ali had very small hands"... imo
Someone earlier mentioned the Gloves balance that out to some degree... I can attest to that one

[SenorPipino]

Looked like a pretty good puncher when he put Liston out with one very famous punch (Coming Soon: the 50th Anniversary of the so-called Phantom Punch) and a beautiful right that sent Foley to sleep.

Others have mentioned how he badly hurt Lyle and Bonavena with a single blow before scoring TKOs. And of course, a paralyzing straight right off the ropes started Foreman on the road to his reign's end.
Naturally, the deluded Ali detractors will probably argue that all these fights were fixed. Okay.

When Ali planted, his speed, accuracy and timing made him a very dangerous puncher indeed.

[jaclem3]

...after a lot of babble, senior pepino is the first one to mention ali's fast damaging straight right hand. he hurt quarry with it, and i'm giving that as an example because i noticed it after viewing their fight.... don't recall if it was the first or second one ..i won't compare him one way or the other with other fighters, but i do think that punch alone makes him an underrated puncher.