Does Jimmy M burn out his fighters?

[stevieb_8006]

Firstly, respect to degale, great win abroad. But the way he fades in the middle of fights is worrying.

For such a supposedly great conditioner, why does this happen?

[Stuarty]

I don't think fitness is a massive problem with DeGale to be fair. He's done the 12 rounds a good few times now. He was in against a quality operator last night and was always going to be up against it at times.

[ALI]

No idea but it was a bizzare performance, he was so poor between the 7th to 10th rounds many thought he lost the fight. Even in the 11th and 12th he did just enough to scrape them. He looked knackered from the 7th onwards.

IMO he clearly has stamina issues, it is something he must address. There is no reason why he should have gassed so bad, he is in his prime and should be able to fight 12 rounds at a good pace. J.M. needs to sort that out or bring in a stregnth and conditioning coach who will.

On another note, if DeGale was to switch trainers, which i think could potentially bring more out of him, which trainer do you think he would pair up well with. I think Adam Booth would be a good choice for him, though given his closeness with Groves over the years i'm not sure DeGale would entertain that option? I think McKracken would be a great match up for him also, but then he's Froch's trainer so probably a no go at this moment in time.

[stevieb_8006]

Adam booth would be a great call. I saw him say that he did 16 weeks for this camp, so maybe he was fatigued.

Saying that, it's not the first time he's dipped mid fight.

Anyway, chuffed for him.

[tobyh5]

I remember many years ago reading about the insane fitness based training stuff Jimmy put fighters through and thinking it was as surefire way to fck a fighter long term. It could get them in great shape initially, very fit, but would put too many miles on the clock for sustainability. Then I also thought he was clearly a good guy for putting them through a military style hard camp but his boxing trainer knowledge is totally unproven and still is. One guy you train winning a world title does not make you a good trainer but could just mean you had a good fighter to work with. Lets think Kevin Rooney

Lastly I remember something about Jimmy from 20 odd years ago that he had a very low heart rate which helped his own engine and so he is putting people through stuff that he could do in a way that he could do it but he had a bit of an advantage.

Oh and a good mate of mine is in the Degale camp, works with James closely on one aspect of his prep and was there last night. He rates Jimmy highly and has more insider insight than me so ignore all of the above lol

[rd350lc]

Even Degale said pre-fight interview last night that Jimmy's training regeme was mental , but I think the reason he looked so tired mid rounds was that Dirrel was putting it on him and you have to give your opponant a bit of credit for that .

[Duffus91]

Jimmy is always going to draw criticism for his almost old-school training approach to fighters. Could this apparent reluctance to accept some of the newer methods in regards to conditioning that has appeared hinder his fighters in any way? Time will tell.

I think people are focusing too much on taking any credit away from Dirrell here. Last night was Chunky's toughest fight to date on paper. Dirrell is a World class operator, and showed in glimpses his qualities last night.

Although risky tactics, Chunky nailed him that first few rounds allowing himself the opportunity to coast through the rounds. The 10-7 round opened up a massive gap in the scorecards. Dirrell had to come out and chase the fight after that and was always going to look the more aggressive fighter in the later rounds.

[palooka]

DeGale should have taken the fight one round at a time and not banked on having a 10//7 round (the 2nd) - it went necessarily going to be scored that way, it want entirely one way traffic. When he got to the middle rounds he seemed to imagine he had plenty of rounds in the bank and could afford to coast.

[Duffus91]

DeGale should have taken the fight one round at a time and not banked on having a 10//7 round (the 2nd) - it went necessarily going to be scored that way, it want entirely one way traffic. When he got to the middle rounds he seemed to imagine he had plenty of rounds in the bank and could afford to coast.

Did you see DeGale as the winner of the fight then or have Dirrell edging it?

I never scored the fight when I was watching it, I don't see the point of that, I'd rather just enjoy the fight with a cuppa and leave that to someone paid to do it. But from memory, some of those middle rounds were very nip and tuck. I'd say if DeGale hadn't won the 2nd round so convincingly he would've looked to be more active in those rounds.

[Monte Fisto]

DeGale should have taken the fight one round at a time and not banked on having a 10//7 round (the 2nd) - it went necessarily going to be scored that way, it want entirely one way traffic. When he got to the middle rounds he seemed to imagine he had plenty of rounds in the bank and could afford to coast.

That was my take on it. The 10-7 was a big one, but he did have spme bitty rounds as it went on. He didn't look as sharp as he should have been. Sixteen weeks is too long IMO.

I don't think he was coasting because he thought he had rounds in the bank, I think it was his stamina causing him to slow down. I'm very pleased it didn't cost him, but you have to think they need to address his engine come fight night, especially as he now has a large target on his back. He has just beaten
an incredibly slick operator and the last thing he wants is to lose to someone, who just simply beats him by imposing their will and has a bigger engine.

Really enjoyed the fight, a highly skilled bout with some good action.

[Duffus91]

That was my take on it. The 10-7 was a big one, but he did have spme bitty rounds as it went on. He didn't look as sharp as he should have been. Sixteen weeks is too long IMO.

How long usually is a fight-camp? 8-12 weeks?

[bruthead]

I think DeGale burned a lot of nervous energy in the excitement of the knock-down and then he pushed for the KO in the next few rounds, winging in massive shots. He didn't seem to be relaxing and recuperating much between rounds, and that caught up with him. Maybe needed a calmer corner to see the big picture that the fight was still likely to go 12.

[handsofstone]

Other DeGale fights its looked as though he's gassed but even though he's claimed to have fixed the problem,it looks as if he still isn't confident in his tank,he didn't look tired last night but he still dropped the work rate to near zero for 3 rounds

I think it might be a mental thing, he's unwilling to let the hands go in case his engine goes

[SuperSi]

James' camp wouldn't ordinarily be 16 weeks. He was given a date of April 25th as fight night and was working towards that. When Haymon won the purse bid, it made periodising training harder as James was expecting to be fighting in circa 4 weeks (at that point). Then, another 5 weeks were added to the camp.

Of course, he rested up for a bit once he got the new fight date. However, it still put him at a disadvantage compared to Dirrell who was ticking over in March while James was training for an April fight.

Also, he had a cut (happened in 2nd round) to protect last night that needed stitches post fight.

[Boxing Prospect]

Out of interest, is Jimmy training any other fighters of real note? It does need to be noted that DeGale was a damned good amateur and may well have gone all the way with a different trainer

[hurlock]

I remember McDonnell boasting that Takaloo had done 15rds on the pads in a sauna two days before a fight!! He gets them fit but deffo over does it!!! Degale has no stamina issues I think he over compensated at times and felt the pace and his legs wasn't really there

[Old Jack J]

Degale looked to have plenty in the tank come the last 2 rounds. I think he must have thought he had expended a bit too much energy in the early rounds and had a 4 or 5 round rest to make sure he didn't die a death before the end.

He needs to manage it better as it is a habit of his.

[tobyh5]

James' camp wouldn't ordinarily be 16 weeks. He was given a date of April 25th as fight night and was working towards that. When Haymon won the purse bid, it made periodising training harder as James was expecting to be fighting in circa 4 weeks (at that point). Then, another 5 weeks were added to the camp.

Of course, he rested up for a bit once he got the new fight date. However, it still put him at a disadvantage compared to Dirrell who was ticking over in March while James was training for an April fight.

Also, he had a cut (happened in 2nd round) to protect last night that needed stitches post fight.

You suggesting a little overtrained? I thought he was blowing it if I am honest and he needed those last two rounds

[Andrew]

In Jimmy Tibbs book he mentioned when Jim McDonnel started to train under him he never took a day off and would train even when Tibbs urged him to rest.

[handsofstone]

In Jimmy Tibbs book he mentioned when Jim McDonnel started to train under him he never took a day off and would train even when Tibbs urged him to rest.

Did Jim have stamina issues throughout his career?

[SuperSi]

You suggesting a little overtrained? I thought he was blowing it if I am honest and he needed those last two rounds

No, not over trained. Just pointing out that it wouldn't ordinarily be a 16 week camp - that a consequence of Haymon winning purse bids.

Agreed - the last two rounds were needed. However, the fitness was there to pick it up when those rounds were required.

I think from outside the ring it can be easy to underestimate having Dirrell in front of you. He's very sharp - with a cut you don't want to give him too many opportunities to counter and make the cut worse. Personally, I think it was the right approach on the night.

[Broomhall]

You suggesting a little overtrained? I thought he was blowing it if I am honest and he needed those last two rounds

No, not over trained. Just pointing out that it wouldn't ordinarily be a 16 week camp - that a consequence of Haymon winning purse bids.

Agreed - the last two rounds were needed. However, the fitness was there to pick it up when those rounds were required.

I think from outside the ring it can be easy to underestimate having Dirrell in front of you. He's very sharp - with a cut you don't want to give him too many opportunities to counter and make the cut worse. Personally, I think it was the right approach on the night.

As a science sport has changed incredibly in the last 20 years and particularly in the last 10. I do wonder how much Jimmy Mac keeps up with these changes? Always remember one of the Arsenal players complaining when Wenger came in about not having to do the same old stamina work and being worrried about being fit on match day, only to find when the season started he was playing better than ever with far fewer injuries.

It would be I think ok to say the above if this just happened in the Dirrell fight, but it happens a lot with James and with lesser fighters than Dirrell-he just switches off.

As a cornerman you should also be giving your fighter honest feedback-without the knockdowns, DeGale loses-so he was losing a lot of rounds from then on. The fact that DeGale was honest about coasting in some rounds as he felt he was ahead is worrying as clearly he was losing those rounds and wasnt as far ahead as he thought.

[dbf]

McDonnell seems very old school but does add in some progressive aspects to this training. Chunky was well known for being a poor trainer in the amateurs and perhaps he realised that he needed someone who was going to push him constantly.

Also, don't underestimate the power that a relationship between coach and boxer has when thinking about how happy the boxer is, how he learns and how performs. James clearly trusts and respects Jim he may not have that with any other trainer.

[Duffus91]

McDonnell seems very old school but does add in some progressive aspects to this training. Chunky was well known for being a poor trainer in the amateurs and perhaps he realised that he needed someone who was going to push him constantly.

Also, don't underestimate the power that a relationship between coach and boxer has when thinking about how happy the boxer is, how he learns and how performs. James clearly trusts and respects Jim he may not have that with any other trainer.

Agree with this sentiment exactly. So many fighters over the years could've done with this piece of advice.