Do Brits(and an Irishman )own the Super Middleweight division?

[ALI]

Who he should have fought too - Collins, benn, Larsen, liles, Johnson, ottke, Pavlik,

You can add plenty more into that mix, remember his options were not only at Super Middle:

Jermain Taylor
Winky Right
Clinton Woods
Marcus Bayer
Carl Froch
Chad Dawson
Antonio Tarver
Dariusz Michalczewski

Thats off the top of my head and makes up 15 names when coupled with your list. It does not really matter why Calzaghe never fought these oponents, did they avoid him, did he avoid them, other factors prevented the fight etc, who cares, he never fought any of them, he spent most of his career fighting under par opponents. Most of the key names he did beat its easy to pick holes in them, Eubank and Woodhall, Jones etc at tail end of careers and so on.

[expe]

Who he should have fought too - Collins, benn, Larsen, liles, Johnson, ottke, Pavlik,

You can add plenty more into that mix, remember his options were not only at Super Middle:

Jermain Taylor
Winky Right
Clinton Woods
Marcus Bayer
Carl Froch
Chad Dawson
Antonio Tarver
Dariusz Michalczewski

Thats off the top of my head and makes up 15 names when coupled with your list. It does not really matter why Calzaghe never fought these oponents, did they avoid him, did he avoid them, other factors prevented the fight etc, who cares, he never fought any of them, he spent most of his career fighting under par opponents. Most of the key names he did beat its easy to pick holes in them, Eubank and Woodhall, Jones etc at tail end of careers and so on.

He was a super middleweight for 95% of his career, both lists are full of fights that were never options, Winky Wright was a light middleweight FFS.

If you want to start picking holes in records, you can do that to any fighter, Froch's doesn't look so good when you start doing that either.

[ALI]

Who he should have fought too - Collins, benn, Larsen, liles, Johnson, ottke, Pavlik,

You can add plenty more into that mix, remember his options were not only at Super Middle:

Jermain Taylor
Winky Right
Clinton Woods
Marcus Bayer
Carl Froch
Chad Dawson
Antonio Tarver
Dariusz Michalczewski

Thats off the top of my head and makes up 15 names when coupled with your list. It does not really matter why Calzaghe never fought these oponents, did they avoid him, did he avoid them, other factors prevented the fight etc, who cares, he never fought any of them, he spent most of his career fighting under par opponents. Most of the key names he did beat its easy to pick holes in them, Eubank and Woodhall, Jones etc at tail end of careers and so on.

He was a super middleweight for 95% of his career, both lists are full of fights that were never options, Winky Wright was a light middleweight FFS.

If you want to start picking holes in records, you can do that to any fighter, Froch's doesn't look so good when you start doing that either.

Winky Wright was just an example of a named oponent Calzaghe 'could' have fought during the time they were operating around the same weight, in this case 2005 to 2007, times when Calzaghe was bashing up Viet, Ashira, Manfredo Jr. Wright was at middleweight then, he stepped up in 2007 to fight Hopkins at light heavyweight. Dont dwell to much on the fact i named Wright, he is just an example of a named fighter Calzaghe would have been better off fighting than Ashira or Manfredo Jr. The list was off the top of my head.

[expe]

You can add plenty more into that mix, remember his options were not only at Super Middle:

Jermain Taylor
Winky Right
Clinton Woods
Marcus Bayer
Carl Froch
Chad Dawson
Antonio Tarver
Dariusz Michalczewski

Thats off the top of my head and makes up 15 names when coupled with your list. It does not really matter why Calzaghe never fought these oponents, did they avoid him, did he avoid them, other factors prevented the fight etc, who cares, he never fought any of them, he spent most of his career fighting under par opponents. Most of the key names he did beat its easy to pick holes in them, Eubank and Woodhall, Jones etc at tail end of careers and so on.

He was a super middleweight for 95% of his career, both lists are full of fights that were never options, Winky Wright was a light middleweight FFS.

If you want to start picking holes in records, you can do that to any fighter, Froch's doesn't look so good when you start doing that either.

Winky Wright was just an example of a named oponent Calzaghe 'could' have fought during the time they were operating around the same weight, in this case 2005 to 2007, times when Calzaghe was bashing up Viet, Ashira, Manfredo Jr. Wright was at middleweight then, he stepped up in 2007 to fight Hopkins at light heavyweight. Dont dwell to much on the fact i named Wright, he is just an example of a named fighter Calzaghe would have been better off fighting than Ashira or Manfredo Jr. The list was off the top of my head.

They weren't operating around the same weight, one had just moved up to middleweight, the other was at super middleweight.

Veit was a mandatory, Ashira was shite and they picked Manfredo because he was a name in America.

Not just Wright either, Michalczewski, Tarver, Dawson and Woods were light heavyweights, Taylor was a middleweight, most of the names listed were never going to happen and you're trying to slag him off for not fighting them, at least pick out the fights that should have happen instead of talking bollocks.

[ALI]

Your the one talking out your arse, Calzaghe v Dawson was well touted, Dawson was WBC champion and eager for the fight, Calzaghe was at light heavy having fought Hopkins, Dawson was undefeated and high in peoples P4P rankings. Calzaghe opted to fight a totally washed up Jones then retire. Plenty others were gunning for a fight with JC, a fight with Woods was well touted, he could have fought Beyer anytime over a period of around 3 or 4 years while he was WBC champion. Pavlik vs Calzaghe was also well touted in early 2008, had Calzaghe wanted it, it would have been made, Pavlik was up for it, it was a mouth watering prospect at the time, just another fight Calzaghe never took. If i remember correctly JC was name dropping Taylor and Wright as possible oponents before he fought Hopkins. Froch would have been a big domestic fight. Johnson, did Joe not pull out about 3 times? Ottke, lets just not go there. Your the one talking bollocks.

[expe]

Your the one talking out your arse, Calzaghe v Dawson was well touted, Dawson was WBC champion and eager for the fight, Calzaghe was at light heavy having fought Hopkins, Dawson was undefeated and high in peoples P4P rankings. Calzaghe opted to fight a totally washed up Jones then retire. Plenty others were gunning for a fight with JC, a fight with Woods was well touted, he could have fought Beyer anytime over a period of around 3 or 4 years while he was WBC champion. Pavlik vs Calzaghe was also well touted in early 2008, had Calzaghe wanted it, it would have been made, Pavlik was up for it, it was a mouth watering prospect at the time, just another fight Calzaghe never took. Froch would have been a big domestic fight. Johnson, did Joe not pull out about 3 times? Ottke, lets just not go there. Your the one talking bollocks.

So he chose to fight Jones for bigger money in his last fight, big deal, both of them were past it at that stage.

He moved up to light heavyweight and fought Hopkins, a week earlier Woods lost his title to Tarver, not sure how that was ever really a possibility unless he didn't bother fighting Kessler or Lacy, in which case you'd be moaning about him not fighting them.

Beyer is one that probably should have happened, didn't help that he managed to lose to Sanavia midway through his reign and I'm not sure if he would have travelled.

Early 2008, same time as Calzaghe fought Hopkins, he couldn't fight both of them and Taylor had a rematch clause on Pavlik, which he took.

Froch was a nothing fight to Calzaghe, after he beat Kessler he went off to America where he had bigger fish to fry. No different to Froch with DeGale, the timing just didn't line up right for the fight to happen.

He pulled out of Johnson injured a couple of times, not sure how a fighter can be blamed for getting injured and he did fight Sheika, who was coming off a win over Johnson. Another fight with a short window to make, Johnson had the three notable wins of his career against Woods, Jones and Tarver, then lost the rematch to Tarver, then lost to Woods a couple of fights later.

Ottke is another fight that he should have taken, I can understand the worry of being robbed in Germany and there was no chance of Ottke travelling, but he really should have gone over there and knocked Ottke out.

You've picked out a load of fights you think should have happened at the end of his career when he was fighting the best opposition of his career, he couldn't fight all of them unless he didn't retire and at some point every fighter has to stop, there's always another fighter coming through and a new challenge, but you can't fight all of them.

For me the two names missing off his record are Ottke and Beyer, even if it meant going to Germany he should have fought them and they should have picked some better voluntary defences than the likes of Sobot, Thornberry, McIntyre, Pudwill and Ashira. Realistically if a fighter has 20+ world title fights, not all of them are going to be against top level fighters, but some of them really shouldn't have happened because they were fornicating dire.

[kamicazze]

Who he should have fought too - Collins, benn, Larsen, liles, Johnson, ottke, Pavlik,

You can add plenty more into that mix, remember his options were not only at Super Middle:

Jermain Taylor
Winky Right
Clinton Woods
Marcus Bayer
Carl Froch
Chad Dawson
Antonio Tarver
Dariusz Michalczewski

Thats off the top of my head and makes up 15 names when coupled with your list. It does not really matter why Calzaghe never fought these oponents, did they avoid him, did he avoid them, other factors prevented the fight etc, who cares, he never fought any of them, he spent most of his career fighting under par opponents. Most of the key names he did beat its easy to pick holes in them, Eubank and Woodhall, Jones etc at tail end of careers and so on.

What makes it worse is that in all likeliness he would have beat all names mentioned. And rather than us debating over him and froch or him and ward as best smw of all times, it would simply be clear to be Calzaghe

[Autobarn]

Your the one talking out your arse, Calzaghe v Dawson was well touted, Dawson was WBC champion and eager for the fight, Calzaghe was at light heavy having fought Hopkins, Dawson was undefeated and high in peoples P4P rankings. Calzaghe opted to fight a totally washed up Jones then retire. Plenty others were gunning for a fight with JC, a fight with Woods was well touted, he could have fought Beyer anytime over a period of around 3 or 4 years while he was WBC champion. Pavlik vs Calzaghe was also well touted in early 2008, had Calzaghe wanted it, it would have been made, Pavlik was up for it, it was a mouth watering prospect at the time, just another fight Calzaghe never took. If i remember correctly JC was name dropping Taylor and Wright as possible oponents before he fought Hopkins. Froch would have been a big domestic fight. Johnson, did Joe not pull out about 3 times? Ottke, lets just not go there. Your the one talking bollocks.

good example of Joe's terrible and frustrating carrier choices - but he was also the real deal. If he wasn't he would've fucked up like his super middleweight contemporaries mundine, green and Beyer did - or been exposed like his wazza stable contemporaries Alex Arthur etc were.

Re some names brought up, pavlik and winky were beaten by Hopkins (whom Joe beat); Beyer and mundine were beaten by Kessler (whom Joe also beat),

Would've been nice, and would've gone down well, if it was calzaghe who embarrassed pavlik though.

Johnson and Taylor, these two proved memorable foes for other British world champs, woods and froch. He did pull out of Johnson 3 times, dismissing Johnson as a journeyman - that very year Johnson won his world title and (a sentimental choice...) most publications' fighter of the year. Joe wasn't the most thoughtful or articulate.

[Counter-puncher]

Really good last post, I m o, expe.

[freddydoesdallas]

Did Calzaghe make that much fighting Jones Jnr? I have no idea so i'm genuinely interested, not making a sarky comment.

Also, i agree with kamikazze (and i'm sure most do) that Calzaghe would have beaten most if not all of those during his career but it's obvious that he had confidence issues and that leaves us in the position that we are now. Picking holes in his career.

If Hatton had not fought Mayweather & Pacquiao i'm sure there would be 2 opposing views on the outcomes. 'What if's' are so frustrating!!

[whiskey]

Did Calzaghe make that much fighting Jones Jnr? I have no idea so i'm genuinely interested, not making a sarky comment.

At the time the fight was made, Roy Jones was whoring himself to every promoter in boxing for a fight.

Shortly beforehand, he'd flown into Germany to sit ringside for the return of Marcus Beyer. The German had been absent for over a year and looked truly awful against a hand-picked Russian guy.

Afterwards Jones was saying "Marcus Beyer is a wonderful fighter, it would be an honour to fight him" etc etc.

Meanwhile Calzaghe was tabled an agreed fight with Kelly Pavlik by Frank, as agreed with Arum and HBO.

"Joe... Joe... where you going ?.... JOE ! COME BACK JOE !"

I bet Roy Jones thought he'd opened a Wonka chocolate bar with a golden ticket in it when Joe rang him and offered to split the lot 50/50 !

[ALI]

Did Calzaghe make that much fighting Jones Jnr? I have no idea so i'm genuinely interested, not making a sarky comment.

At the time the fight was made, Roy Jones was whoring himself to every promoter in boxing for a fight.

Shortly beforehand, he'd flown into Germany to sit ringside for the return of Marcus Beyer. The German had been absent for over a year and looked truly awful against a hand-picked Russian guy.

Afterwards Jones was saying "Marcus Beyer is a wonderful fighter, it would be an honour to fight him" etc etc.

Meanwhile Calzaghe was tabled an agreed fight with Kelly Pavlik by Frank, as agreed with Arum and HBO.

"Joe... Joe... where you going ?.... JOE ! COME BACK JOE !"

I bet Roy Jones thought he'd opened a Wonka chocolate bar with a golden ticket in it when Joe rang him and offered to split the lot 50/50 !

Apparantly he was being offered $10 million to fight Pavlik, not sure how accurate that figure is but it would have been a massive fight at the time.

Anyone know what Calzaghe pocketed for the Hopkins and Jones fights?

[whiskey]

Did Calzaghe make that much fighting Jones Jnr? I have no idea so i'm genuinely interested, not making a sarky comment.

At the time the fight was made, Roy Jones was whoring himself to every promoter in boxing for a fight.

Shortly beforehand, he'd flown into Germany to sit ringside for the return of Marcus Beyer. The German had been absent for over a year and looked truly awful against a hand-picked Russian guy.

Afterwards Jones was saying "Marcus Beyer is a wonderful fighter, it would be an honour to fight him" etc etc.

Meanwhile Calzaghe was tabled an agreed fight with Kelly Pavlik by Frank, as agreed with Arum and HBO.

"Joe... Joe... where you going ?.... JOE ! COME BACK JOE !"

I bet Roy Jones thought he'd opened a Wonka chocolate bar with a golden ticket in it when Joe rang him and offered to split the lot 50/50 !

Apparantly he was being offered $10 million to fight Pavlik, not sure how accurate that figure is but it would have been a massive fight at the time.

Anyone know what Calzaghe pocketed for the Hopkins and Jones fights?

£2.2m for Hopkins, no idea for Jones.

[ALI]

£2.2m for Hopkins, no idea for Jones.

Just googled Calzaghe/Jones purse, several websites wrote at the time they both earned $10 million each. Thats huge, much more than i would have thought as Jones fall from greatness was well underway by then, he had already suffered 3 back to back losses to Tarver twice and Johnson once.

[whiskey]

£2.2m for Hopkins, no idea for Jones.

Just googled Calzaghe/Jones purse, several websites wrote at the time they both earned $10 million each. Thats huge, much more than i would have thought as Jones fall from greatness was well underway by then, he had already suffered 3 back to back losses to Tarver twice and Johnson once.

I find that very hard to believe.

I don't think it was PPV and wasn't it on Setanta in the UK ?

[expe]

£2.2m for Hopkins, no idea for Jones.

Just googled Calzaghe/Jones purse, several websites wrote at the time they both earned $10 million each. Thats huge, much more than i would have thought as Jones fall from greatness was well underway by then, he had already suffered 3 back to back losses to Tarver twice and Johnson once.

I find that very hard to believe.

I don't think it was PPV and wasn't it on Setanta in the UK ?

It was PPV in America and they promoted it themselves, without a promoter to take a cut, there must have been a lot more money available for the fighters.

[whiskey]

It was PPV in America and they promoted it themselves, without a promoter to take a cut, there must have been a lot more money available for the fighters.

Yep you are correct