Is Anthony Joshua TOO big?

[Tuan_Jim]

The look of relief on Lewis's face when the decision goes his way dispels your version of events. He also blacked out in the dressing room afterwards.

A lot of the pre-fight Lewis/Holyfield press focussed on how hard a struggle Mavrovic had subjected Lewis to ("Lewis battled exhaustion versus Mavrovic" was what Boxing Digest wrote for instance) - and anyone who watched the fight remembers that it was a hard day at the office for the big man.

[Tuan_Jim]

(The right man won, of course, but he seemed to be both battling a fit lively challenger and his own colossal mass - resulting in an uncomfortable experience)

[jamesmcdonnell]

Lewis went up in weight and mass around 30 when he hired Manny Steward. I remember Boxing Monthly expressing concern about his expanding dimensions. It didn't do him any favours when the beer barrel Ray Mercer swallowed his shots, hammered his face with jabs and drew him into a punchup. I recall Lewis desperately needing to take the 10th and being outworked by a 36 year old with a history of fitness shortcomings. And then there was Zeljko Mavrovic, in the early throes of a wasting disease, who set a torrid pace which had Lewis gasping for life.

But I look at the scene now, in 2015, and wonder who could make anyone pay for being a muscleman? I don't see anyone. Who can make someone pay for being grossly overweight? Wlad, again and again and again, and him a frail muscleman who has adapted his style to matador these cumbersome brutes with minimum exertion.

I think Joshua's bulk could cost him in a gruelling fight, but I don't see a creature stalking the wasteland who can draw him into such.

Yes, this is the thing, his size, and power, and technique could be enough for him to remain unbeaten for many years.

There hasn't been a really good fluid big man, in the 6'3-6'4" range for a long time now, but that's the kind of size I think is the perfect fighting machine, guys like Ali and Holmes, whom had stamina, speed, technique, and were incredibly tough too - I still think the idea that bigger is better is bunkum, there's a tradeoff between mobility/speed and strength/power - unfortunately, too many modern heavyweights are in poor condition, carrying far too much weight, and seemingly, too little ambition.

Eventually, someone will come along to revive the division, I don't think it's Wilder, he's too ragged and uncultured, but I don't think the future is going to all be giants like Wlad, Fury etc. Maybe I'm talking out of my arse, who knows, I guess the next 20 years will tell us.

[Tuan_Jim]

There hasn't been a really good fluid big man, in the 6'3-6'4" range for a long time now, but that's the kind of size I think is the perfect fighting machine, guys like Ali and Holmes, whom had stamina, speed, technique, and were incredibly tough too - I still think the idea that bigger is better is bunkum, there's a tradeoff between mobility/speed and strength/power - unfortunately, too many modern heavyweights are in poor condition, carrying far too much weight, and seemingly, too little ambition.

Tony Tucker, Buster Douglas and Riddick Bowe are the only giants I can recall who, at their best, could really move, fluid and coordinated, and do something of everything ala prime Ali and Holmes. Lewis less so, the Klits not at all (Vitali is as ugly as a late 19th century fighter).

Joshua has more of the Frank Bruno about him, but possibly with more self-belief and certainly a gentler terrain to advance through. Being something akin to Bruno in 2015 could take a man a long long way.

[Counter-puncher]

Plus, think of the damage the bodybuilding 'lifestyle' will inflict upon you. You know, is it worth it?

Anybody who has aspirations of high-level competitive success in bodybuilding knows that what they are doing is likely to cause them problems down the line, but doesn't that apply to most sports and or obsessions? I know plenty of 40-year-old ex-rugby players who are physical wrecks and only a very loose handful of those played in what is or was equivalent to the Premiership and Championship, most were down in the regional leagues and earning nothing.

Seeing what you're physically capable of is, to some, worth the consequences.

For non-competitive, non-drug using exercisers, I think bodybuilding has far more long-term positives than negatives.

Point taken about rugby players, it's a tough, tough game. I know that. I also agree with you about bodybuilding being OK if you're not juiced up and going to extremes but a lot of these top guys are piling all sorts of gear into them, messing with their hormones and their whole physiology. Basically it's playing Russian roulette with their health.

Either way, I'd rather be a top-class rugby player than a bodybuilder and there are all sorts of reasons for that - one being that, quite frankly, I don't really see bodybuilding as a proper sport. I am sorry if anybody finds that offensive and, yes, I know some of these guys are pushing the boundaries and put in massive amounts of effort but, you know, is it really a sport?

Leaving that aside, I would something like like rugby as more character building than bodybuilding. I dunno, I just see a lot of what passes as 'gym culture' as quite negative and unhealthy nowadays - physically and, well, spiritually too I suppose.

i would tend to agree, but then I have the negative view that bodybuilding is nothing more than professional narcissism writ large on the human frame.

[arlovski]

Lewis went up in weight and mass around 30 when he hired Manny Steward. I remember Boxing Monthly expressing concern about his expanding dimensions. It didn't do him any favours when the beer barrel Ray Mercer swallowed his shots, hammered his face with jabs and drew him into a punchup. I recall Lewis desperately needing to take the 10th and being outworked by a 36 year old with a history of fitness shortcomings. And then there was Zeljko Mavrovic, in the early throes of a wasting disease, who set a torrid pace which had Lewis gasping for life.

But I look at the scene now, in 2015, and wonder who could make anyone pay for being a muscleman? I don't see anyone. Who can make someone pay for being grossly overweight? Wlad, again and again and again, and him a frail muscleman who has adapted his style to matador these cumbersome brutes with minimum exertion.

I think Joshua's bulk could cost him in a gruelling fight, but I don't see a creature stalking the wasteland who can draw him into such.

Yes, this is the thing, his size, and power, and technique could be enough for him to remain unbeaten for many years.

There hasn't been a really good fluid big man, in the 6'3-6'4" range for a long time now, but that's the kind of size I think is the perfect fighting machine, guys like Ali and Holmes, whom had stamina, speed, technique, and were incredibly tough too - I still think the idea that bigger is better is bunkum, there's a tradeoff between mobility/speed and strength/power - unfortunately, too many modern heavyweights are in poor condition, carrying far too much weight, and seemingly, too little ambition.

Eventually, someone will come along to revive the division, I don't think it's Wilder, he's too ragged and uncultured, but I don't think the future is going to all be giants like Wlad, Fury etc. Maybe I'm talking out of my arse, who knows, I guess the next 20 years will tell us.

This is why i really like Joseph Parker - 6'3, a 'natural' non-muscled bound 16 stone who punches fluidly in combinations, v.good fundamentals+punch technique and proven stamina over longer rounds. He's got an 'old school heavyweight' vibe about him.

I think he'd be an absolute nightmare for Joshua as it stands at the minute, but these two could have a great rivalry in coming years

[Grilling Machine]

he seemed to be both battling a fit lively challenger and his own colossal mass

What's the name of this Jumbo Cummings film?

[Monte Fisto]

It will be interesting to see what happens when Joshua has his Jumbo Cummings moment

Is he going into porn???

[hurlock]

To ask the question id say no. But it's a good comparison to compare what Bruno was in his late 30's the thing is josh is going to get bigger and slower and his prime could be now which I feel it is due to size etc. heavies are known to peak late but I feel he's athleticism will not benefit down the stretch and could end up looking like bob sapp or even lose the bulk??? However he is the future wether people like it or not

[Ezzard]

'BODY' by Harry Crews is a favourite of mine.
With one of the great characters of Southern lit, Russell Muscle...
"Sex is just another workout."

[Sklar]

i would tend to agree, but then I have the negative view that bodybuilding is nothing more than professional narcissism writ large on the human frame.

Narcissism is the phrase that’s most apt when it comes to bodybuilding. During the music routines and solo posing, they competitors get a faraway look in their eyes and I imagine in my mind’s eye that in their mind’s eye they’re completely alone, absorbed in the posing and only take the crowd in once it’s over. It’s a funny thing. I do quite enjoy the shows, though, but I was lucky as the person I went to them with is an expert so I was given a high-end crash course in it all.

Some of the free posing sections can be quite witty. One guy did a brilliant Terminator-themed piece.

I much prefer them to kickboxing and Muay Thai shows.

I remember seeing a video of Bertil Fox's posing routine at the 1983 Olympia at a pal's house many moons ago (it's on YouTube now of course - see below). He didn't win, which surprised just about everybody other than the people who had filled in the winner's name beforehand (allegedly). The combination of a freaky human and Marvin Gaye's Sexual Healing blew me away. Awesome physique considering HGH didn't exist back then. Brutal was in the zone as you describe above.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXnpgXj_53U

[hurlock]

^^^you's are bent as a nine bob note!

[whiskey]

[lillywhite14]

Lewis went up in weight and mass around 30 when he hired Manny Steward. I remember Boxing Monthly expressing concern about his expanding dimensions. It didn't do him any favours when the beer barrel Ray Mercer swallowed his shots, hammered his face with jabs and drew him into a punchup. I recall Lewis desperately needing to take the 10th and being outworked by a 36 year old with a history of fitness shortcomings. And then there was Zeljko Mavrovic, in the early throes of a wasting disease, who set a torrid pace which had Lewis gasping for life.

But I look at the scene now, in 2015, and wonder who could make anyone pay for being a muscleman? I don't see anyone. Who can make someone pay for being grossly overweight? Wlad, again and again and again, and him a frail muscleman who has adapted his style to matador these cumbersome brutes with minimum exertion.

I think Joshua's bulk could cost him in a gruelling fight, but I don't see a creature stalking the wasteland who can draw him into such.

Yes, this is the thing, his size, and power, and technique could be enough for him to remain unbeaten for many years.

There hasn't been a really good fluid big man, in the 6'3-6'4" range for a long time now, but that's the kind of size I think is the perfect fighting machine, guys like Ali and Holmes, whom had stamina, speed, technique, and were incredibly tough too - I still think the idea that bigger is better is bunkum, there's a tradeoff between mobility/speed and strength/power - unfortunately, too many modern heavyweights are in poor condition, carrying far too much weight, and seemingly, too little ambition.

Eventually, someone will come along to revive the division, I don't think it's Wilder, he's too ragged and uncultured, but I don't think the future is going to all be giants like Wlad, Fury etc. Maybe I'm talking out of my arse, who knows, I guess the next 20 years will tell us.

This is why i really like Joseph Parker - 6'3, a 'natural' non-muscled bound 16 stone who punches fluidly in combinations, v.good fundamentals+punch technique and proven stamina over longer rounds. He's got an 'old school heavyweight' vibe about him.

I think he'd be an absolute nightmare for Joshua as it stands at the minute, but these two could have a great rivalry in coming years

It could build into something pretty big which would be great for the division. Parker gives Joshua plenty to think about as it stands but on the flip side, I suspect Parker doesn't exactly have an easy nights work if he fights Joshua right now! Not many, if any, would.

[Tuan_Jim]

'BODY' by Harry Crews is a favourite of mine.
With one of the great characters of Southern lit, Russell Muscle...
"Sex is just another workout."

Ezzard, you must be quite the bookworm to reference Harry Crews. I've not read that particular one of his but will try it now. I assumed his death would bring him back into print but so far no sign. 'Childhood' should be more famous than it is.

[dbf]

Lewis went up in weight and mass around 30 when he hired Manny Steward. I remember Boxing Monthly expressing concern about his expanding dimensions. It didn't do him any favours when the beer barrel Ray Mercer swallowed his shots, hammered his face with jabs and drew him into a punchup. I recall Lewis desperately needing to take the 10th and being outworked by a 36 year old with a history of fitness shortcomings. And then there was Zeljko Mavrovic, in the early throes of a wasting disease, who set a torrid pace which had Lewis gasping for life.

But I look at the scene now, in 2015, and wonder who could make anyone pay for being a muscleman? I don't see anyone. Who can make someone pay for being grossly overweight? Wlad, again and again and again, and him a frail muscleman who has adapted his style to matador these cumbersome brutes with minimum exertion.

I think Joshua's bulk could cost him in a gruelling fight, but I don't see a creature stalking the wasteland who can draw him into such.

Spot on! He probably would struggle over 10 or 12 grueling rounds but only one person currently could give him that and that would be Povetkin.

[Ezzard]

'BODY' by Harry Crews is a favourite of mine.
With one of the great characters of Southern lit, Russell Muscle...
"Sex is just another workout."

Ezzard, you must be quite the bookworm to reference Harry Crews. I've not read that particular one of his but will try it now. I assumed his death would bring him back into print but so far no sign. 'Childhood' should be more famous than it is.

Hi Tuan

An unsettling black comedy like all his best work. I'm guessing you have read 'The Knockout Artist' by Mr Crews too? I'm a big fan of Southern US Lit.

A while back I bought a number of first editions of some of the hard to get novels. A real pleasure.

[Controversial]

I think the only fighters who stand a good chance of beating Klit need to be as big or bigger than Klit. He uses his size to his advantage very well, not so easy when your opponent if taller, heavier and just as strong.

[CHELSEA10]

Modern day heavyweight can never be too big if they are atheltic, Joshua is very athletic, mobile & powerful. His size will only ever be an advantage for him.

[WildWaylon]

I am no expert but surely height and framesize have a lot to do with your best natural weight as a boxer/fighter. Froch fights at 168 and keeps to around that between fights. Must have something to do with why he is always fit.

[keithmoonhangover]

I think he is. I think he'll tire easily and struggle to move to safety when badly hurt. The Wlad comparisons are fair, but to me, Klitschko looks a lot more mobile.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Modern day heavyweight can never be too big if they are atheltic, Joshua is very athletic, mobile & powerful. His size will only ever be an advantage for him.

That simply isn't true.

Muscle tissue burns oxygen at a very high rate - if you are overburdened with muscle, stamina suffers, that's just physiology - you end up with an oxygen debt, which results in those muscles starting to burn and falter. Joshua may be athletic, but adding huge amounts of muscle really doesn't convey any serious advantage, big muscles don't even create punch power per se, though obviously, having more weight to be able to transfer into momentum is an advantage, at some point the inertia created by that extra weight means your reach a tipping point where it becomes a negative on mobility. I really think he would be better off losing some of that bulk, and working more on mobility and flexibility, both of which will enhance his ability to hit without getting hit. At some point, he's going to come across someone who is both durable and able to fight back (although there aren't many to be fair)

There is natural size, and built size - Fury is a naturally very big man - but there's not much extra muscle, the same was true of Bowe and Lewis in their younger days, it was the frame that was huge, not the muscles built onto it.

Wlad has decent stamina these days, but that's more to do with developing a strategy that economises both movement and output, and ensuring he fights at his own pace - not because of his hulking physique - Wlad is a very intelligent fighter, and also extremely focussed on executing that gameplan. That really is I think Wlad's greatest asset - his size helps, but only because he uses it so intelligently. That's not something that is easy to do.

[Counter-puncher]

Wlad is a very intelligent fighter, and also extremely focussed on executing that gameplan. That really is I think Wlad's greatest asset - his size helps, but only because he uses it so intelligently. That's not something that is easy to do.

indeed

[jamesmcdonnell]

Wlad is a very intelligent fighter, and also extremely focussed on executing that gameplan. That really is I think Wlad's greatest asset - his size helps, but only because he uses it so intelligently. That's not something that is easy to do.

indeed

I do find it amusing when people harp on about Wlad's size, as if it is some sort of unfair advantage - and ignore his considerable skills.

[keithmoonhangover]

Modern day heavyweight can never be too big if they are atheltic, Joshua is very athletic, mobile & powerful. His size will only ever be an advantage for him.

That simply isn't true.

Muscle tissue burns oxygen at a very high rate - if you are overburdened with muscle, stamina suffers, that's just physiology - you end up with an oxygen debt, which results in those muscles starting to burn and falter. Joshua may be athletic, but adding huge amounts of muscle really doesn't convey any serious advantage, big muscles don't even create punch power per se, though obviously, having more weight to be able to transfer into momentum is an advantage, at some point the inertia created by that extra weight means your reach a tipping point where it becomes a negative on mobility. I really think he would be better off losing some of that bulk, and working more on mobility and flexibility, both of which will enhance his ability to hit without getting hit. At some point, he's going to come across someone who is both durable and able to fight back (although there aren't many to be fair)

There is natural size, and built size - Fury is a naturally very big man - but there's not much extra muscle, the same was true of Bowe and Lewis in their younger days, it was the frame that was huge, not the muscles built onto it.

Wlad has decent stamina these days, but that's more to do with developing a strategy that economises both movement and output, and ensuring he fights at his own pace - not because of his hulking physique - Wlad is a very intelligent fighter, and also extremely focussed on executing that gameplan. That really is I think Wlad's greatest asset - his size helps, but only because he uses it so intelligently. That's not something that is easy to do.

Superb post sir.