Tommy Burns, The Most Under Rated Heavyweight Champion

[Caractacus]

Dude,are you sure you are not just jealous because Tommy Burns was a champion and you are not?

[pound per pound]

Did you know that Tommy Burns actually had a longer reach then Jack Johnson?

Burns was 5'7" tall. History will never see another heavyweight champion as short as he was. Burns who entered the ring at 168 pounds might have had a slight reach advantage on Johnson. Johnson however held a significant edge on height and pounds. The fight was a rather one sided.

[The Great John L]

Did you know that Tommy Burns actually had a longer reach then Jack Johnson?

Burns was 5'7" tall. History will never see another heavyweight champion as short as he was. Burns who entered the ring at 168 pounds might have had a slight reach advantage on Johnson. Johnson however held a significant edge on height and pounds. The fight was a rather one sided.

I remember years ago there was a thread here where several posters said there would never be another LH champion who could move up to claim the HW title because fighters were so much bigger, and then within the next year or so RJJ moved up and spanked Ruiz, followed shortly by Toney crushing Holy before slapping Ruiz and Sam Peter around. There is no reason why a Dwight Qawi type couldn’t come along someday and overwhelm a weak HW claimant in similar fashion.

[Cap]

"...So just to clarify how many BLACK fighter's did Burns face in his career before winning the Heavyweight title and after winning the title :?? :?? :??
because fighter's who used the colour line are over-rated in my book its like being featherweight champ but refuse to fight MEXICAN'S...."


How many black/coloured opponents does it take to qualify.....?

[ClivePatrickLyons]

"...So just to clarify how many BLACK fighter's did Burns face in his career before winning the Heavyweight title and after winning the title :?? :?? :??
because fighter's who used the colour line are over-rated in my book its like being featherweight champ but refuse to fight MEXICAN'S...."


How many black/coloured opponents does it take to qualify.....?

Smarty if you[or your racist management] are dodging OTHER FIGHTER'S BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACK YOU MY FRIEND IS A DORG

[Cap]

"...So just to clarify how many BLACK fighter's did Burns face in his career before winning the Heavyweight title and after winning the title :?? :?? :??
because fighter's who used the colour line are over-rated in my book its like being featherweight champ but refuse to fight MEXICAN'S...."


How many black/coloured opponents does it take to qualify.....?

Smarty if you[or your racist management] are dodging OTHER FIGHTER'S BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACK YOU MY FRIEND IS A DORG

Let's see. Who was the top rated coloured/negro heavyweight after Burns won the title? Oh yeah. Jack Johnson. He should've fought him. Wait! He did!

[Tomasino]

"...So just to clarify how many BLACK fighter's did Burns face in his career before winning the Heavyweight title and after winning the title :?? :?? :??
because fighter's who used the colour line are over-rated in my book its like being featherweight champ but refuse to fight MEXICAN'S...."


How many black/coloured opponents does it take to qualify.....?

Smarty if you[or your racist management] are dodging OTHER FIGHTER'S BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACK YOU MY FRIEND IS A DORG

Clive please do some boxing research, this is getting embarrassing

[Caractacus]

I think they should consider giving(posthumously)
Tommy Burns the presidental medal of honour
for helping to break down the racial barrier that existed back then.
Since Jess Willard refused to fight coloured fighters
who would have been the first Heavyweight Champion
to give a Brotha a shot at the title?
Would it have been James J. Braddock
or after World War II?

[Caractacus]

Had there been any plans for Tommy Burns to fight Stanley Ketchel
around the time that Burns decided to give Jack Johnson a shot at the title?
How would a Burns vrs Ketchel fight went?

[pound per pound]

I agree that Burns is underated. When you see film of him, he's really impressive and an exciting boxer to watch. Light on his feet, hands low, good movement and a fast puncher. You can see why he did so well in his time. All I can think of when seeing him in action is how incredible Johnson was to beat him like he was in effect nothing.

Johnson is my heavy all time number 3 and I think he's very underated on these forums.

Most of the time felt Burns not in Fitzsimmons, Corbett, or Jeffries class. Historical rankings from the times quickly confirm this. Tommy was just in his prime when many of the best white heavyweights were old or retired. He defeated Marvin Hart, who won a close match with Jack Johnson, but did not beat anyone as good as Hart during his title run, or after his defeat by Johnson.

Had Burns fought Langford, McVey, Jeannette, Gunboat Smith, McCarty, or Willard, from 1909-1915 we would get a better sense of how good he was. I'd pick him to lose to the listed above names above in almost all cases.

Essentially we are talking about a blown up middle weight here who not have been champion before or after his time in almost all cases.

[Caractacus]

Timing is everything in life it seems.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Under rated for what dodging dark skinned fighter's

You dont know much on Burns, considering the first opponent he had was black, and fought others who were black.

I'm a ignorant bastard..........all I want is the names on his record besides Johnson that were not white

[ClivePatrickLyons]

I agree that Burns is underated. When you see film of him, he's really impressive and an exciting boxer to watch. Light on his feet, hands low, good movement and a fast puncher. You can see why he did so well in his time. All I can think of when seeing him in action is how incredible Johnson was to beat him like he was in effect nothing.

Johnson is my heavy all time number 3 and I think he's very underated on these forums.

Most of the time felt Burns not in Fitzsimmons, Corbett, or Jeffries class. Historical rankings from the times quickly confirm this. Tommy was just in his prime when many of the best white heavyweights were old or retired. He defeated Marvin Hart, who won a close match with Jack Johnson, but did not beat anyone as good as Hart during his title run, or after his defeat by Johnson.

Had Burns fought Langford, McVey, Jeannette, Gunboat Smith, McCarty, or Willard, from 1909-1915 we would get a better sense of how good he was. I'd pick him to lose to the listed above names above in almost all cases.

Essentially we are talking about a blown up middle weight here who not have been champion before or after his time in almost all cases.

FOR ALL YOU EXPERT'S ON THE GREAT BURNS YOU CAN SEE SOME OF THEIR NAME'S LANGFORD/JEANETTE/GUNBOAT SMITH ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC I'M SUCH A IGNORANT WHAT EVER............BUT PLEASE DON'T INSULT THE GREAT COLOURED FIGHTER'S THAT WERE DODGED
AS IF THEY WERE ALIAN'S, THEY DID NOT BE-GRUDGE ANY FIGHTER HIS RIGHT TO MAKE A DECENT LIVING OUT OF THE GAME LIKE THE REST OF THE HUMAN'S [FIGHTER'S]BACK THEN AND AS FOR JOHNSON HE WAS AS BAD AS BURNS AND COMPANY.......IS THAT FACT OR AM I JUST BEING IGNORANT

[Ambling Alp II]

I agree that Burns is underated. When you see film of him, he's really impressive and an exciting boxer to watch. Light on his feet, hands low, good movement and a fast puncher. You can see why he did so well in his time. All I can think of when seeing him in action is how incredible Johnson was to beat him like he was in effect nothing.

Johnson is my heavy all time number 3 and I think he's very underated on these forums.

Most of the time felt Burns not in Fitzsimmons, Corbett, or Jeffries class. Historical rankings from the times quickly confirm this. Tommy was just in his prime when many of the best white heavyweights were old or retired. He defeated Marvin Hart, who won a close match with Jack Johnson, but did not beat anyone as good as Hart during his title run, or after his defeat by Johnson.

Had Burns fought Langford, McVey, Jeannette, Gunboat Smith, McCarty, or Willard, from 1909-1915 we would get a better sense of how good he was. I'd pick him to lose to the listed above names above in almost all cases.

Essentially we are talking about a blown up middle weight here who not have been champion before or after his time in almost all cases.

I think he would have a good chance against Smith McCarty, and Willard. (Willard would have been funny to watch.)He would have given Langford, McVey, and Jeannette some trouble. He was a pretty talented fighter.

There were later champions that he would have had a good shot against, such as Braddock, Johannson, and Leon Spinks.

[pound per pound]

I agree that Burns is underated. When you see film of him, he's really impressive and an exciting boxer to watch. Light on his feet, hands low, good movement and a fast puncher. You can see why he did so well in his time. All I can think of when seeing him in action is how incredible Johnson was to beat him like he was in effect nothing.

Johnson is my heavy all time number 3 and I think he's very underated on these forums.

Most of the time felt Burns not in Fitzsimmons, Corbett, or Jeffries class. Historical rankings from the times quickly confirm this. Tommy was just in his prime when many of the best white heavyweights were old or retired. He defeated Marvin Hart, who won a close match with Jack Johnson, but did not beat anyone as good as Hart during his title run, or after his defeat by Johnson.

Had Burns fought Langford, McVey, Jeannette, Gunboat Smith, McCarty, or Willard, from 1909-1915 we would get a better sense of how good he was. I'd pick him to lose to the listed above names above in almost all cases.

Essentially we are talking about a blown up middle weight here who not have been champion before or after his time in almost all cases.

FOR ALL YOU EXPERT'S ON THE GREAT BURNS YOU CAN SEE SOME OF THEIR NAME'S LANGFORD/JEANETTE/GUNBOAT SMITH ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC I'M SUCH A IGNORANT WHAT EVER............BUT PLEASE DON'T INSULT THE GREAT COLOURED FIGHTER'S THAT WERE DODGED
AS IF THEY WERE ALIAN'S, THEY DID NOT BE-GRUDGE ANY FIGHTER HIS RIGHT TO MAKE A DECENT LIVING OUT OF THE GAME LIKE THE REST OF THE HUMAN'S [FIGHTER'S]BACK THEN AND AS FOR JOHNSON HE WAS AS BAD AS BURNS AND COMPANY.......IS THAT FACT OR AM I JUST BEING IGNORANT

Not sure what you are trying to say. You are correct. The great colored fighters were often dodged at the turn of the 20th century. The term was the Color line. My point was after being defeated by Johnson Tommy Burns did not meet any top level fighters that were black or white, and historians do not view him favorably with the the previous heavyweight champions.

Tommy Burns gave Jack Johnson a title shot once the money was right for him. Ironically Jack Johnson shut the door on the best black talent in the division once he became champion with offers that were equivalent or greater than what Burns received to fight Johnson himself.

The thread is was Burns underrated. In a pound per pound sense you can argue he was. As a heavyweight I say no. After Jimmy Braddock, and Marvin Hart Tommy Burns might be the least formidable of all heavyweight champions. This is not his fault. Essentially Burns was a blown up middle weight who stood but 5 feet 7 inches tall.

[Caractacus]

Under rated for what dodging dark skinned fighter's

You dont know much on Burns, considering the first opponent he had was black, and fought others who were black.

I'm a ignorant bastard..........all I want is the names on his record besides Johnson that were not white

Dude,take a chill pill.
You got to put things in perspective.
Do you realize up until the Korean War(the early 1950's)
That he US Military was still segregated?

What you really mean to say is that Tommy Burns should instead be sub-rated to below zero,
and after loosing the Heavyweight crown to Jack Johnson,
Burns should have given all his wealth away and eat crumbs and sleep in the street.
Would that make you happy?

[Cap]

Actually, after winning the Empire title in his match with Bill Lang, Burns signed to box Langford in England in 1910 but was seriously injured in a Seattle streetcar accident and was lucky to walk again. After that he never considered seriously competing again until the Beckett debacle in 1920 when he was well past it, boxing journeymen fighters merely to keep his name in the papers. [If their fight happened today, Johnson would probably be disqualified for kidney punches he used from the first round on, a blow that is illegal in modern times.]

[Caractacus]

Tommy Burns Rocks!

[pound per pound]

Actually, after winning the Empire title in his match with Bill Lang, Burns signed to box Langford in England in 1910 but was seriously injured in a Seattle streetcar accident and was lucky to walk again. After that he never considered seriously competing again until the Beckett debacle in 1920 when he was well past it, boxing journeymen fighters merely to keep his name in the papers. [If their fight happened today, Johnson would probably be disqualified for kidney punches he used from the first round on, a blow that is illegal in modern times.]

If Johnson fought under the no kidney shot rules, he does not throw those foul punches as often. I think you have to judge them in the context of their times and rules they fought under.

You can also say Johnson would be docked points today for excessive clinching, hitting on the break, and other foul tactics that were frowned upon at the time. Johnson did lose a fight vis DQ for low blows, and had his share of south of the boarder punches in other matches. In some other matches he and his opponent went through the motions with boos from the crowd.

If he was around today, Johnson would have to re-tool his offensive and defensive game plan. Burns today would be a super middle weight or light heavyweight at best. You could say they would have never meet in the ring.

[Caractacus]

BTW Anyone find out how much of the 14 rounds of Johnson vrs Tommy Burns still survive on film?

I think there is only about 10 minutes of it on youtube.

(if my math is correct, 14 X 3 = approx. 42 minutes)

[Caractacus]

Does anyone here know if Tommy Burns at ant time had ever use any sparring partners that happened to be of African desent during his boxing career?

[pbchron]

as was stated in the 9th post of this thread : before he became champ, among the black boxers Burns fought were Henry Peppers, Billy Moore and Billy Woods.

[Caractacus]

as was stated in the 9th post of this thread : before he became champ, among the black boxers Burns fought were Henry Peppers, Billy Moore and Billy Woods.

You could have fooled ClivePatrickLyons!

BTW Who were some of Burns black sparring partners?

[Cap]

Actually, after winning the Empire title in his match with Bill Lang, Burns signed to box Langford in England in 1910 but was seriously injured in a Seattle streetcar accident and was lucky to walk again. After that he never considered seriously competing again until the Beckett debacle in 1920 when he was well past it, boxing journeymen fighters merely to keep his name in the papers. [If their fight happened today, Johnson would probably be disqualified for kidney punches he used from the first round on, a blow that is illegal in modern times.]

If Johnson fought under the no kidney shot rules, he does not throw those foul punches as often. I think you have to judge them in the context of their times and rules they fought under.

You can also say Johnson would be docked points today for excessive clinching, hitting on the break, and other foul tactics that were frowned upon at the time. Johnson did lose a fight vis DQ for low blows, and had his share of south of the boarder punches in other matches. In some other matches he and his opponent went through the motions with boos from the crowd.

If he was around today, Johnson would have to re-tool his offensive and defensive game plan. Burns today would be a super middle weight or light heavyweight at best. You could say they would have never meet in the ring.

Burns at light heavy (Dwight Braxton was only 5' 7") and Johnson a cruiserweight. Possible.

Middleweight/light heavyweight Billy Woods, sometimes referred to as the "coloured Hercules" was one of Tommy's sparring partners after he won the title.

[keithmoonhangover]

Tommy Burns vs Wilder. Who would you bet on?