Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour

[elmersalsa]

That's an illusion that Leonard "Did not fight his fight"...No matter how he comes against Duran of Montreal he will always lose.

You probably did not see the fight well.

In response to opponents, Leonard beat them AT HIS WEIGHT CLASS.
Duran had to go up in weight to fight them. Plus, by that time, he was not the same fighter when he lost to Hearns, Hagler and Benitez.

Duran's biggest enemy was the weight when he fought them. The weight.

[elmersalsa]

That's an illusion that Leonard "Did not fight his fight"...No matter how he comes against Duran of Montreal he will always lose.

You probably did not see the fight well.

In response to opponents, Leonard beat them AT HIS WEIGHT CLASS.
Duran had to go up in weight to fight them. Plus, by that time, he was not the same fighter when he lost to Hearns, Hagler and Benitez.

Duran's biggest enemy was the weight when he fought them. The weight.

The factors of why the great Roberto Duran was not as effective like in the 70s decade:
1. The weight classes of 154 and 160lbs, were TOO BIG for him. Those are weight classes out of his weight range (130 to 147lbs)
2. Once you hit 30, you lose some speed.
3. He was out of prime in the 80s

[keithmoonhangover]

In response to opponents, Leonard beat them AT HIS WEIGHT CLASS.

He beat Hagler at middleweight. That sums up your opinions on this. Totally blinkered and wrong.

[Counter-puncher]

absolutely mad as a bag full of fvcking frogs.

[elmersalsa]

In response to opponents, Leonard beat them AT HIS WEIGHT CLASS.

He beat Hagler at middleweight. That sums up your opinions on this. Totally blinkered and wrong.

No, he did not beat the great Marvelous. The weight was TOO BIG FOR DURAN. Hagler won the last 3 rounds in my view to keep his title. Not his greatest win or performance, but an underrated win against an all time great.

[keithmoonhangover]

In response to opponents, Leonard beat them AT HIS WEIGHT CLASS.

He beat Hagler at middleweight. That sums up your opinions on this. Totally blinkered and wrong.

No, he did not beat the great Marvelous.

Leonard did beat Hagler and not in his weight class.

[elmersalsa]

Leonard did beat Hagler and not in his weight class.

So what? If it were 12 rounds, Duran would've won the fight.
Plus, Leonard challenged Marvelous AFTER Duran challenged him.
Plus, if Leonard came back from retirement to win, Hagler was on the downslide and fading.
Plus, if it were 15 rounds, Hagler would've won. Don't you think?

[keithmoonhangover]

Leonard did beat Hagler and not in his weight class.

So what? If it were 12 rounds, Duran would've won the fight.
Plus, Leonard challenged Marvelous AFTER Duran challenged him.
Plus, if Leonard came back from retirement to win, Hagler was on the downslide and fading.
Plus, if it were 15 rounds, Hagler would've won. Don't you think?

All ifs. Leonard beat Hagler.

[Seamus]

In 1943 in Detroit, Sugar Ray Robinson took a 10 rd UD from Jake LaMotta. Robinson weighed 145, LaMotta was 160 and 3 quarters, technically speaking a LIGHTHEAVYWEIGHT ! I'll take that version of Robinson over Montreal Duran any day of the week. And your argument that Robinson couldn't fight on the inside is false. Robinson lost a few very close decisions against younger fighters because he traded on the inside, but that was at Middleweight when he was over 30 !

[elmersalsa]

All ifs. Leonard beat Hagler.

True. The fight was 5 years too late. Maybe the Hearns and John Mugabi's fights took much out of Marvelous

[keithmoonhangover]

All ifs. Leonard beat Hagler.

True. The fight was 5 years too late. Maybe the Hearns and John Mugabi's fights took much out of Marvelous

Leonard was out of his natural weight class, ring rusty, recovering from drug addiction and eye damage. He'd fought once in five years and Leonard was further removed from his prime than Hagler was.

[elmersalsa]

In 1943 in Detroit, Sugar Ray Robinson took a 10 rd UD from Jake LaMotta. Robinson weighed 145, LaMotta was 160 and 3 quarters, technically speaking a LIGHTHEAVYWEIGHT ! I'll take that version of Robinson over Montreal Duran any day of the week. And your argument that Robinson couldn't fight on the inside is false. Robinson lost a few very close decisions against younger fighters because he traded on the inside, but that was at Middleweight when he was over 30 !

The great Jake LaMotta is 5'8". Robinson was almost 6 feet tall. He could outbox the shorter guy. ROBINSON WAS NOT A GREAT INSIDE FIGHTER. How he beats that Duran in Montreal?

Right there you are saying that he lost to guys fighting inside. Randy Turpin gave him a whupping. LaMotta almost knocked him out in Detroit.

To tell you the truth, Duran, Hagler and Leonard were BETTER INSIDE FIGHTERS than Robinson. Even the great Muhammad Ali was better than SRR on the inside.

Watch the fight again. Look at Duran's hand and feet movements. How does he position from one angle to connect. That is difficult to do.

[elmersalsa]

All ifs. Leonard beat Hagler.

True. The fight was 5 years too late. Maybe the Hearns and John Mugabi's fights took much out of Marvelous

Leonard was out of his natural weight class, ring rusty, recovering from drug addiction and eye damage. He'd fought once in five years and Leonard was further removed from his prime than Hagler was.

And Hagler had too many ring wars. It took a toll on him. He even was missing badly in that fight.
Why the fight did not happened in '82? Different story.
Leonard comes back in '84 and look what Kevin Howard did to him. Imagine a Marvelous, full in his prime in that same venue? It would've been a DISASTER. Or Thomas Hearns? Hearns would've blasted him.

[keithmoonhangover]

And Hagler had too many ring wars. It took a toll on him. He even was missing badly in that fight.
Why the fight did not happened in '82? Different story.
Leonard comes back in '84 and look what Kevin Howard did to him. Imagine a Marvelous, full in his prime in that same venue? It would've been a DISASTER. Or Thomas Hearns? Hearns would've blasted him.

Why can you not give Leonard credit for what he achieved?

[elmersalsa]

And Hagler had too many ring wars. It took a toll on him. He even was missing badly in that fight.
Why the fight did not happened in '82? Different story.
Leonard comes back in '84 and look what Kevin Howard did to him. Imagine a Marvelous, full in his prime in that same venue? It would've been a DISASTER. Or Thomas Hearns? Hearns would've blasted him.

Why can you not give Leonard credit for what he achieved?

I give him credit. He was the best of the 80s. You're the one that don't give Manos de Piedra credit at all

[keithmoonhangover]

And Hagler had too many ring wars. It took a toll on him. He even was missing badly in that fight.
Why the fight did not happened in '82? Different story.
Leonard comes back in '84 and look what Kevin Howard did to him. Imagine a Marvelous, full in his prime in that same venue? It would've been a DISASTER. Or Thomas Hearns? Hearns would've blasted him.

Why can you not give Leonard credit for what he achieved?

I give him credit. He was the best of the 80s. You're the one that don't give Manos de Piedra credit at all

I do. Duran is one of the top lightweights of all time, he fought a great fight in the first Leonard fight and his performances against Moore and Barkley were very impressive.

[palooka]

Henry Armstrong would have given Duran a real scrap at lightweight or welter. Barney Ross would have given him grief at welter.

[caldo2025]

if IF's and BUT's were peanuts and nuts, we'd all have a plentiful Christmas. I love how people say IF this and IF that when it comes to SRL. The guy was one of the best ever, plain and simple. He made Duran quit in the ring and made Hagler retire. People say how Hagler was old when they fought, it was a year after Hagler knocked out the Beast Mugabi and under two years removed from the best 3 rounds in history vs. Tommy Hearns. GIve Sugar Ray Leonard the credit that he deserves.

Hagler fought SRL when he was 33 years old. GGG is 33 years old right now. Is he over the hill? The Facts are: Marvelous Marvin Hagler was a top P4P fighter at 33 years old and knocking everyone out. SRL, comes out of retirement and pulled one of the greatest upsets in the history of boxing. The fight was close but he clearly won the fight with the most clear and effective punches and better defense. Give the guy his due already because I've never seen a boxer with the heart like Sugar Ray Leonard.

[elmersalsa]

if IF's and BUT's were peanuts and nuts, we'd all have a plentiful Christmas. I love how people say IF this and IF that when it comes to SRL. The guy was one of the best ever, plain and simple. He made Duran quit in the ring and made Hagler retire. People say how Hagler was old when they fought, it was a year after Hagler knocked out the Beast Mugabi and under two years removed from the best 3 rounds in history vs. Tommy Hearns. GIve Sugar Ray Leonard the credit that he deserves.

Hagler fought SRL when he was 33 years old. GGG is 33 years old right now. Is he over the hill? The Facts are: Marvelous Marvin Hagler was a top P4P fighter at 33 years old and knocking everyone out. SRL, comes out of retirement and pulled one of the greatest upsets in the history of boxing. The fight was close but he clearly won the fight with the most clear and effective punches and better defense. Give the guy his due already because I've never seen a boxer with the heart like Sugar Ray Leonard.

You came too late for the conversation, mate. Nobody discrediting Leonard. I got him in the top 20 p4p all time.
The argument in here was, or, is, if he was better or superior like Alp said than Duran. My question is, how is he superior when both were at their A GAME, DURAN WHUPPED HIM.

[palooka]

if IF's and BUT's were peanuts and nuts, we'd all have a plentiful Christmas. I love how people say IF this and IF that when it comes to SRL. The guy was one of the best ever, plain and simple. He made Duran quit in the ring and made Hagler retire. People say how Hagler was old when they fought, it was a year after Hagler knocked out the Beast Mugabi and under two years removed from the best 3 rounds in history vs. Tommy Hearns. GIve Sugar Ray Leonard the credit that he deserves.

Hagler fought SRL when he was 33 years old. GGG is 33 years old right now. Is he over the hill? The Facts are: Marvelous Marvin Hagler was a top P4P fighter at 33 years old and knocking everyone out. SRL, comes out of retirement and pulled one of the greatest upsets in the history of boxing. The fight was close but he clearly won the fight with the most clear and effective punches and better defense. Give the guy his due already because I've never seen a boxer with the heart like Sugar Ray Leonard.

You came too late for the conversation, mate. Nobody discrediting Leonard. I got him in the top 20 p4p all time.
The argument in here was, or, is, if he was better or superior like Alp said than Duran. My question is, how is he superior when both were at their A GAME, DURAN WHUPPED HIM.

Leonard improved tactically and physically after the first Duran bout - Duran may have never been better but Leonard certainly improved. I'd say a Duran at his best beat a Leonard that was yet to get his 'A' game.

[caldo2025]

if IF's and BUT's were peanuts and nuts, we'd all have a plentiful Christmas. I love how people say IF this and IF that when it comes to SRL. The guy was one of the best ever, plain and simple. He made Duran quit in the ring and made Hagler retire. People say how Hagler was old when they fought, it was a year after Hagler knocked out the Beast Mugabi and under two years removed from the best 3 rounds in history vs. Tommy Hearns. GIve Sugar Ray Leonard the credit that he deserves.

Hagler fought SRL when he was 33 years old. GGG is 33 years old right now. Is he over the hill? The Facts are: Marvelous Marvin Hagler was a top P4P fighter at 33 years old and knocking everyone out. SRL, comes out of retirement and pulled one of the greatest upsets in the history of boxing. The fight was close but he clearly won the fight with the most clear and effective punches and better defense. Give the guy his due already because I've never seen a boxer with the heart like Sugar Ray Leonard.

You came too late for the conversation, mate. Nobody discrediting Leonard. I got him in the top 20 p4p all time.
The argument in here was, or, is, if he was better or superior like Alp said than Duran. My question is, how is he superior when both were at their A GAME, DURAN WHUPPED HIM.

Sorry, I should have read a little more before commenting. But I do have to disagree with the assertion that Duran "WHUPPED HIM" in the first fight. SRL made a nice comeback late in the bout and scores also indicated it was very close with 1 round being the difference. 145-144, 148-147, 146-144. You really can't get much closer than that.

As a die hard SRL fan, I do have to agree with you though. The 2nd & 3rd fights they had together don't tell us much about who was better than who in their prime. SRL knew Duran was still in NYC partying and eating heavily after their first fight so he pushed for an immediate rematch. Reports are that Duran ballooned up to 200lbs after that bout.

Duran has to be in the conversation for the top 20 as well, don't ya think?

[caldo2025]

if IF's and BUT's were peanuts and nuts, we'd all have a plentiful Christmas. I love how people say IF this and IF that when it comes to SRL. The guy was one of the best ever, plain and simple. He made Duran quit in the ring and made Hagler retire. People say how Hagler was old when they fought, it was a year after Hagler knocked out the Beast Mugabi and under two years removed from the best 3 rounds in history vs. Tommy Hearns. GIve Sugar Ray Leonard the credit that he deserves.

Hagler fought SRL when he was 33 years old. GGG is 33 years old right now. Is he over the hill? The Facts are: Marvelous Marvin Hagler was a top P4P fighter at 33 years old and knocking everyone out. SRL, comes out of retirement and pulled one of the greatest upsets in the history of boxing. The fight was close but he clearly won the fight with the most clear and effective punches and better defense. Give the guy his due already because I've never seen a boxer with the heart like Sugar Ray Leonard.

You came too late for the conversation, mate. Nobody discrediting Leonard. I got him in the top 20 p4p all time.
The argument in here was, or, is, if he was better or superior like Alp said than Duran. My question is, how is he superior when both were at their A GAME, DURAN WHUPPED HIM.

Leonard improved tactically and physically after the first Duran bout - Duran may have never been better but Leonard certainly improved. I'd say a Duran at his best beat a Leonard that was yet to get his 'A' game.

I think that the first fight they had together was a pure example of will over technique. Duran was a man possessed that night in Canada and even though he was able to secure a couple more world titles after that fight, I'd argue that Duran never ever fought at that level again for the rest of his career. It was an all out onslaught that he poured on Ray that night and a pace that SRL said that it pushed him to the brink of death. That's most beautiful part of this sport that you can't get in any other major sport. These warriors are walking a tightrope in that ring between death and glory and you really can't find that in any other sport.

[keithmoonhangover]

if IF's and BUT's were peanuts and nuts, we'd all have a plentiful Christmas. I love how people say IF this and IF that when it comes to SRL. The guy was one of the best ever, plain and simple. He made Duran quit in the ring and made Hagler retire. People say how Hagler was old when they fought, it was a year after Hagler knocked out the Beast Mugabi and under two years removed from the best 3 rounds in history vs. Tommy Hearns. GIve Sugar Ray Leonard the credit that he deserves.

Hagler fought SRL when he was 33 years old. GGG is 33 years old right now. Is he over the hill? The Facts are: Marvelous Marvin Hagler was a top P4P fighter at 33 years old and knocking everyone out. SRL, comes out of retirement and pulled one of the greatest upsets in the history of boxing. The fight was close but he clearly won the fight with the most clear and effective punches and better defense. Give the guy his due already because I've never seen a boxer with the heart like Sugar Ray Leonard.

You came too late for the conversation, mate. Nobody discrediting Leonard. I got him in the top 20 p4p all time.
The argument in here was, or, is, if he was better or superior like Alp said than Duran. My question is, how is he superior when both were at their A GAME, DURAN WHUPPED HIM.

One statement, one question.

Statement, Leonard was not on his A GAME in the first fight. If you asked 100 boxing experts, I'm sure the majority of them would agree with me.

Question. What is your scorecard of the first fight?

[elmersalsa]

if IF's and BUT's were peanuts and nuts, we'd all have a plentiful Christmas. I love how people say IF this and IF that when it comes to SRL. The guy was one of the best ever, plain and simple. He made Duran quit in the ring and made Hagler retire. People say how Hagler was old when they fought, it was a year after Hagler knocked out the Beast Mugabi and under two years removed from the best 3 rounds in history vs. Tommy Hearns. GIve Sugar Ray Leonard the credit that he deserves.

Hagler fought SRL when he was 33 years old. GGG is 33 years old right now. Is he over the hill? The Facts are: Marvelous Marvin Hagler was a top P4P fighter at 33 years old and knocking everyone out. SRL, comes out of retirement and pulled one of the greatest upsets in the history of boxing. The fight was close but he clearly won the fight with the most clear and effective punches and better defense. Give the guy his due already because I've never seen a boxer with the heart like Sugar Ray Leonard.

You came too late for the conversation, mate. Nobody discrediting Leonard. I got him in the top 20 p4p all time.
The argument in here was, or, is, if he was better or superior like Alp said than Duran. My question is, how is he superior when both were at their A GAME, DURAN WHUPPED HIM.

One statement, one question.

Statement, Leonard was not on his A GAME in the first fight. If you asked 100 boxing experts, I'm sure the majority of them would agree with me.

Question. What is your scorecard of the first fight?

Statements like these will make other people doubt about your knowledge, Keith. You are much better than that. I am starting to think that you're a Leonard delusional fan than the great Thomas Hearns.

Duran won and that was that.

[keithmoonhangover]

Statements like these will make other people doubt about your knowledge, Keith. You are much better than that. I am starting to think that you're a Leonard delusional fan than the great Thomas Hearns.

Duran won and that was that.

How did you score the first fight?