Boxing's Greatest Performances: On Those Nights, These Guys Could Never Be Defeated

[elmersalsa]

Explain to me what Frazier could do in the ring to beat Foreman. What would he do differently style-wise to win?

For starters, in my view, my view only, the great Smokin' Joe LEFT IT ALL HE HAD IN THE FOTC @ MSG. That fight was BRUTAL. I don't know how Ali and Frazier withstand a huge deal of pounding. What kept them up? I don't know. Maybe it was the real hatred that they had for each other. I don't know what would be. When Ali got up from that left hook, tired in the final round, it was REMARKABLE. What made him get up? I really don't know. Another fighter would have said, "Forget about it, count until ten, ref".

Secondly, Frazier in Jamaica was an EASY TARGET. He didn't had the bob and weave speed. In the FOTC, Ali missed a whole lot of punches. Frazier was a DIFFICULT TARGET TO HIT.

I don't think that the great George Foreman would've stand THE TERRIFIC PACE AND THE RELENTLESS PRESSURE that Frazier put on him. Big George was not a great inside fighter. Once Frazier is inside, it's all Smokin' Joe. Foreman stamina in the 70s was another handicap. Would've he had the pace to fight like that? Remember, Ali was much faster and he missed. Now, Foreman?

[keithmoonhangover]

Explain to me what Frazier could do in the ring to beat Foreman. What would he do differently style-wise to win?

For starters, in my view, my view only, the great Smokin' Joe LEFT IT ALL HE HAD IN THE FOTC @ MSG. That fight was BRUTAL. I don't know how Ali and Frazier withstand a huge deal of pounding. What kept them up? I don't know. Maybe it was the real hatred that they had for each other. I don't know what would be. When Ali got up from that left hook, tired in the final round, it was REMARKABLE. What made him get up? I really don't know. Another fighter would have said, "Forget about it, count until ten, ref".

Secondly, Frazier in Jamaica was an EASY TARGET. He didn't had the bob and weave speed. In the FOTC, Ali missed a whole lot of punches. Frazier was a DIFFICULT TARGET TO HIT.

I don't think that the great George Foreman would've stand THE TERRIFIC PACE AND THE RELENTLESS PRESSURE that Frazier put on him. Big George was not a great inside fighter. Once Frazier is inside, it's all Smokin' Joe. Foreman stamina in the 70s was another handicap. Would've he had the pace to fight like that? Remember, Ali was much faster and he missed. Now, Foreman?

There's only one tiny little thing you didn't mention. What happens when Frazier gets hit with a cleanly with Foreman's best shots? Allow me to tell you what happens, Frazier hits the floor. Watch the FOTC and see how many punches Ali lands on Frazier. If Foreman landed even 1/3 of the punches Ali did, it would be night night Frazier.

Frazier was a tremendous warrior, but Foreman was all wrong for him. Styles make fights and Foreman's style wins this one.

[keithmoonhangover]

Explain to me what Frazier could do in the ring to beat Foreman. What would he do differently style-wise to win?

For starters, in my view, my view only, the great Smokin' Joe LEFT IT ALL HE HAD IN THE FOTC @ MSG. That fight was BRUTAL. I don't know how Ali and Frazier withstand a huge deal of pounding. What kept them up? I don't know. Maybe it was the real hatred that they had for each other. I don't know what would be. When Ali got up from that left hook, tired in the final round, it was REMARKABLE. What made him get up? I really don't know. Another fighter would have said, "Forget about it, count until ten, ref".

Secondly, Frazier in Jamaica was an EASY TARGET. He didn't had the bob and weave speed. In the FOTC, Ali missed a whole lot of punches. Frazier was a DIFFICULT TARGET TO HIT.

I don't think that the great George Foreman would've stand THE TERRIFIC PACE AND THE RELENTLESS PRESSURE that Frazier put on him. Big George was not a great inside fighter. Once Frazier is inside, it's all Smokin' Joe. Foreman stamina in the 70s was another handicap. Would've he had the pace to fight like that? Remember, Ali was much faster and he missed. Now, Foreman?

There's only one tiny little thing you didn't mention. What happens when Frazier gets hit cleanly with Foreman's best shots? Allow me to tell you what happens, Frazier hits the floor. Watch the FOTC and see how many punches Ali lands on Frazier. If Foreman landed even 1/3 of the punches Ali did, it would be night night Frazier.

Frazier was a tremendous warrior, but Foreman was all wrong for him. Styles make fights and Foreman's style wins this one.

[palooka]

I remember seeing Frazier bob and weave into horrible looking uppercuts and Foreman was all wrong for him and far too powerful. Frazier had so much courage it's lucky he got through those bouts without getting seriously hurt, its not often you see a boxer lifted off their feet with a punch.

[palooka]

If Frazier had left everything in the FOTC how on earth do he manage to give Ali hell in Manila?

[elmersalsa]

If Frazier had left everything in the FOTC how on earth do he manage to give Ali hell in Manila?

Both of them were washed up. None of the two that day beats a fresher Big George

[elmersalsa]

I never believe "The styles makes fights" issue. Foreman has never fought someone with that relentless pressure. Ali was faster than Foreman, and could not hit him often. Now, Foreman?
Foreman had stamina issues in his prime. Look at the Zaire and Jimmy Young fights.

Frazier after the fight with Ali, was DONE. Plain and simple. The skill level at FOTC was incredible. Never mind the pace. It was BRUTAL.

Frazier struggled in the next two title fights with guys that wouldn't carry his jockstrap. Five rounds with Ron Stander? Really? Terry Daniels? Five rounds, also? Please.

In '68 through '71, both guys get blasted in one round in the same night, with eyes closed by Smokin Joe. He was ready to be taken in Jamaica. Frazier could never reach that EMOTIONAL HIGH of FOTC again. What a performance. The best I have ever seen.

[keithmoonhangover]

I never believe "The styles makes fights" issue. Foreman has never fought someone with that relentless pressure. Ali was faster than Foreman, and could not hit him often. Now, Foreman?

Foreman couldn't miss Frazier, Ali landed loads of punches in the FOTC, so Foreman would land some and he would hurt Frazier.

Come on Elmo, you make the same statement about Frazier, that you make about Duran. The minute they left the ring after their biggest win, they were never the same fighter again. Coincidence?

[elmersalsa]

It's hard to repeat the same performance twice. Something gotta be taken out of you. Especially, what the great Joe Frazier did in that night in NYC @ MSG.
I have never seen highly skilled level heavyweight fight of that magnitude. Ali fought spectacularly. Frazier gotta have the benefit of the doubt. Big George beat him WAY TOO EASILY!
He looked ready to be taken in Jamaica. He was FLAT. The ONLY THING Frazier brought good in Jamaica was his HEART. It was evident. Foreman put him on the canvas 6 times!

[Cutman Scabbers]

Tyson vs Spinks
Fury Vs Klit

You think Tyson was at his best vs. Spinks or vs. Berbick?

[elmersalsa]

How about the great Floyd Mayweather, Jr performance against Diego Corrales? Would any Jr. Lightweight in history beats him that night? Floyd was terrific!

[Ambling Alp II]

I never believe "The styles makes fights" issue. Foreman has never fought someone with that relentless pressure. Ali was faster than Foreman, and could not hit him often. Now, Foreman?

Foreman couldn't miss Frazier, Ali landed loads of punches in the FOTC, so Foreman would land some and he would hurt Frazier.

Come on Elmo, you make the same statement about Frazier, that you make about Duran. The minute they left the ring after their biggest win, they were never the same fighter again. Coincidence?

Always love it when people do that. It always works out for their favorites (or against guys that they don't like.)
One huge win where supposedly nobody in history could have beaten them and then they are suddenly ready for the old folks home.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Ali the night he defeated Cleveland [big cat] Williams would have beaten any heavyweight that ever lived

[ClivePatrickLyons]

If Frazier had left everything in the FOTC how on earth do he manage to give Ali hell in Manila?

I have heard this before some people believe Frazier was not at his best when Foreman took his title.....this of cause is crap he was undefeated
undisputed heavyweight champ at the time......... he may have slipped a bit by the time the thriller in Manilla so did Ali.. who would have beaten these two on that UNFOREGETTABLE NIGHT:?? .......................NOT MANY IF ANY

[elmersalsa]

The Frazier's fights with Terry Daniels and Ron Stander are a TESTAMENT that Smokin Joe slipped BIG TIME!

[yancey]

If Frazier had left everything in the FOTC how on earth do he manage to give Ali hell in Manila?

I have heard this before some people believe Frazier was not at his best when Foreman took his title.....this of cause is crap he was undefeated
undisputed heavyweight champ at the time......... he may have slipped a bit by the time the thriller in Manilla so did Ali.. who would have beaten these two on that UNFOREGETTABLE NIGHT:?? .......................NOT MANY IF ANY

If you sincerely believe Frazier was at his best for his title defense against Foreman, then I will sincerely say you are utterly clueless.

JF was never the same fighter post-FOTC.

[elmersalsa]

Saying that Smokin Joe was the same fighter of the FOTC against Foreman is like saying George W. Bush was the best president of the US ever.

[keithmoonhangover]

If Frazier had left everything in the FOTC how on earth do he manage to give Ali hell in Manila?

I have heard this before some people believe Frazier was not at his best when Foreman took his title.....this of cause is crap he was undefeated
undisputed heavyweight champ at the time......... he may have slipped a bit by the time the thriller in Manilla so did Ali.. who would have beaten these two on that UNFOREGETTABLE NIGHT:?? .......................NOT MANY IF ANY

If you sincerely believe Frazier was at his best for his title defense against Foreman, then I will sincerely say you are utterly clueless.

JF was never the same fighter post-FOTC.

I agree it took it's toll, but anyone who thinks any version of Frazier beats Foreman in Jamaica is indeed utterly clueless.

[Ambling Alp II]

This has been debated before. He just turned 29 and had a whopping 29 fights going into the Foreman fight. Many fighters older and with much more wear and tear were considered in their prime. Yet we are supposed to believe that he was unbeatable in the first Ali fight, then suddenly had almost nothing left since Frazier loses, all of a sudden he is past his best.
One fight took it's toll even though so many other fighters had a fight where they took at least as much punishment and kept going on. Similar to the crybaby Roberto Duran excuses.

[keithmoonhangover]

This has been debated before. He just turned 29 and had a whopping 29 fights going into the Foreman fight. Many fighters older and with much more wear and tear were considered in their prime. Yet we are supposed to believe that he was unbeatable in the first Ali fight, then suddenly had almost nothing left since Frazier loses, all of a sudden he is past his best.
One fight took it's toll even though so many other fighters had a fight where they took at least as much punishment and kept going on. Similar to the crybaby Roberto Duran excuses.

I agree completely mate. Some posters are just blinded by the adoration.

[elmersalsa]

This has been debated before. He just turned 29 and had a whopping 29 fights going into the Foreman fight. Many fighters older and with much more wear and tear were considered in their prime. Yet we are supposed to believe that he was unbeatable in the first Ali fight, then suddenly had almost nothing left since Frazier loses, all of a sudden he is past his best.
One fight took it's toll even though so many other fighters had a fight where they took at least as much punishment and kept going on. Similar to the crybaby Roberto Duran excuses.

See Smokin Joe's before FOTC, and after FOTC, and you will see the same thing Frazier's supporters are saying.

Let's give Frazier credit. He fought THE PERFORMANCE OF THE AGES!

[witherspoon]

I can see both sides of this argument. Not so much for the fact that Frazier struggled against weak opposition after FOTC, I would probably choose to explain that as a motivational issue.

I don't doubt that the fight with Ali took something away from Joe. I refuse to believe that he was physically washed up, however tough that fight was, he's 29 years old, a mere puppy.

At the same time, I think it's fairly obvious that Joe was not as well prepared physically for Foreman as he had been for Ali. He looks soft in the Foreman fight. My guess is that Joe lost alot of his competitive edge after beating the greatest heavyweight of all time.

But for all that, I can't imagine a fully fit and motivated Frazier hearing the final bell against a young George Foreman. It's easy to envisage a much more competitive fight, extremely difficult to see how Frazier would win.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Joe Frazier W15 Muhammad Ali:

George Foreman would beat any version of Frazier.

I LOVE FRAZIER.............BUT I MUST AGREE

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Saying that Smokin Joe was the same fighter of the FOTC against Foreman is like saying George W. Bush was the best president of the US ever.

you my friend is a fu.. WIT

[elmersalsa]

I can see both sides of this argument. Not so much for the fact that Frazier struggled against weak opposition after FOTC, I would probably choose to explain that as a motivational issue.

I don't doubt that the fight with Ali took something away from Joe. I refuse to believe that he was physically washed up, however tough that fight was, he's 29 years old, a mere puppy.

At the same time, I think it's fairly obvious that Joe was not as well prepared physically for Foreman as he had been for Ali. He looks soft in the Foreman fight. My guess is that Joe lost alot of his competitive edge after beating the greatest heavyweight of all time.

But for all that, I can't imagine a fully fit and motivated Frazier hearing the final bell against a young George Foreman. It's easy to envisage a much more competitive fight, extremely difficult to see how Frazier would win.

This is a good post, man. I agree with almost everything you have said. Foreman might be all wrong for Frazier at any fight, but, we got to give the benefit of the doubt. People in here say that Foreman wins 10 out of 10. Not buying that. Put that Foreman at FOTC night, and I see Frazier winning because of the relentless pressure.