Cooper/Ali(Clay)

[evrenb]

Not this again !!!

lol ! Some people never believe anything !!!! What can I tell ya?!!

[klompton]

I dont know what some peoples problem is in believing that this myth is indeed a myth. The complete, unedited broadcast of this fight is easily obtainable and you can see there is no great delay as has always been said.

[Caractacus]

The BBC "Wiped" the original (un-edited and un-abridged)video-tape(along with just about everything else) from their very own archives
in the early 1970's.
Why cant you gullible lemmings(and useful idiots) just accept that fact?

[evrenb]

The BBC "Wiped" the original (un-edited and un-abridged)video-tape(along with just about everything else) from their very own archives
in the early 1970's.
Why cant you gullible lemmings(and useful idiots) just accept that fact?

I can tell you categorically that your statement is full of shit and it is pointless arguing with you.

[evrenb]

The BBC "Wiped" the original (un-edited and un-abridged)video-tape(along with just about everything else) from their very own archives
in the early 1970's.
Why cant you gullible lemmings(and useful idiots) just accept that fact?

I can tell you categorically that your statement is full of shit and it is pointless arguing with you.

[Caractacus]

The BBC "Wiped" the original (un-edited and un-abridged)video-tape(along with just about everything else) from their very own archives
in the early 1970's.

BTW Thats is a KNOWN AND PROVEN FACT.

[Caractacus]

I do think it would be of interest to perhaps see a (compleat) video-tape of
that one show listed
that originally aired on BBC TWO
20.February.1984
A FIGHT TO REMEMBER

written and hosted by Harry Carpenter

Because that would have been shown on the telly just almost 21 years after the actual fight
Back when it was still wihtin living memory of some who had seen it at ringside.
Would you have a copy of this show?(minus any video-tape edits since then done by any boxing revisionists of course
who may have not liked what they had seen)

someone please down-load this show on youtube.
thank you

[Caractacus]

Go read the rather excellent book,
ONLY THE RING WAS SQUARE
written by Teddy Brenner,
the famous matchmaker of Madison Square Garden.
"Long regarded as the most astute matchmaker in the boxing buisness".
Well.Mr Brenner was sitting ringside at that particular fight in Wembley stadium in 1963(seated right next to Liz and Dick,in the front row,natch)
He writes in the book that Ali ,
"had an extra rest of maybe four minutes",
between rounds.(pp 84-85).

That is one(primary) source in support of Henry Cooper's claim..

[Caractacus]

Twenty Years after the fact Angelo Dundee Confesses!!!


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=mB ... 6562970&dq

"I dont know how many minutes I gained"-Angelo Dundee(1983)


That is another good(primary) source that also backs up the late Sir Henry Cooper's claims.

[evrenb]

I do think it would be of interest to perhaps see a (compleat) video-tape of
that one show listed
that originally aired on BBC TWO
20.February.1984
A FIGHT TO REMEMBER

written and hosted by Harry Carpenter

Because that would have been shown on the telly just almost 21 years after the actual fight
Back when it was still wihtin living memory of some who had seen it at ringside.
Would you have a copy of this show?(minus any video-tape edits since then done by any boxing revisionists of course
who may have not liked what they had seen)

someone please down-load this show on youtube.
thank you

I watched the whole programme last night, really great it is. Not only does the uninterrupted footage show as 65 seconds but Harry Carpenter confirms after that they re timed it and it was 65 seconds. I take carpenters word over yours Im afraid. You go back to your conspiracy theories and take them to Roswell. If you want to see the footage and cant find it on Youtube then I will sell you a copy.

[Caractacus]

Oh really?
and I suppose you just watched Muhammad Ali's ring entrance there at Wembley June 1963
when he was wearing a crown holding a sceptre and wearing a cape
which caused the audience to laugh.

[Caractacus]

BTW Evereb,
when are you going to search the English newspaper archives and scan the various articles
that were published the morning after the fight so we can all view them ourselves
to read about any delay of 6 seconds(which could hardly be called a delay).

Ha! Dont make me bloody well larf.

[Controversial]

to read about any delay of 6 seconds (which could hardly be called a delay).

You hit the nail on the head. Its not mentioned as it wasn't worth mentioning.

[klompton]

The BBC "Wiped" the original (un-edited and un-abridged)video-tape(along with just about everything else) from their very own archives
in the early 1970's.
Why cant you gullible lemmings(and useful idiots) just accept that fact?

Thats bullshit. As for primary sources you can count me as one. I have the original unedited BBC broadcast. The "delay" was a few seconds. Nothing more. You go on believing what you want to believe but that doesnt make it so. For years and years people hung on to this myth and when it was finally proven to be false those same people then started to bitch about Dundee's use of smelling salts. LOL. Some people just want to believe Ali was given an unfair advantage over Cooper when in reality Cooper threw the punch of his life and it just wasnt enough against a fighter who was two or three tiers higher than him on the class ladder which is why Ali came out and stopped him the following round.

[SteveO]

The BBC "Wiped" the original (un-edited and un-abridged)video-tape(along with just about everything else) from their very own archives
in the early 1970's.
Why cant you gullible lemmings(and useful idiots) just accept that fact?

Thats bullshit. As for primary sources you can count me as one. I have the original unedited BBC broadcast. The "delay" was a few seconds. Nothing more. You go on believing what you want to believe but that doesnt make it so. For years and years people hung on to this myth and when it was finally proven to be false those same people then started to bitch about Dundee's use of smelling salts. LOL. Some people just want to believe Ali was given an unfair advantage over Cooper when in reality Cooper threw the punch of his life and it just wasnt enough against a fighter who was two or three tiers higher than him on the class ladder which is why Ali came out and stopped him the following round.

Exactly right klompton

[Caractacus]

The BBC "Wiped" the original (un-edited and un-abridged)video-tape(along with just about everything else) from their very own archives
in the early 1970's.
Why cant you gullible lemmings(and useful idiots) just accept that fact?

Thats bullshit. As for primary sources you can count me as one. I have the original unedited BBC broadcast. The "delay" was a few seconds. Nothing more. You go on believing what you want to believe but that doesnt make it so. For years and years people hung on to this myth and when it was finally proven to be false those same people then started to bitch about Dundee's use of smelling salts. LOL. Some people just want to believe Ali was given an unfair advantage over Cooper when in reality Cooper threw the punch of his life and it just wasnt enough against a fighter who was two or three tiers higher than him on the class ladder which is why Ali came out and stopped him the following round.

Exactly right klompton

Oh really olde chap?
Would you mind me arsking you a few questions then?
1.)In which year were you born?
2.) Where were you on the night of the bout ?(June.18.1963)
and did you own a video-tape recorder machine and if so which and what model was it?
3.)If you did not record it yourself,then where and when did you claim to get ahold of this"original unedited BBC broadcast" of the event?
4.) and also what exactly is precluding you from down-loading this alleged unedited and original tape on youtube?

[klompton]

Caractus/brutu its not my job to cure you of your ignorance. That was your parents job. How many times have you come on here spouting conspiracy theories about fight films when the best you can do is read about them on internet? Still care to go into detail on how there is a million to one chance that quarry/mathis survived despite everything ive told you? Now you want to argue that little elves somehow edited a film that DID survive in order to what? Make ali look better? Nevermind that no primary source the following day mentions an extended break and the unedited film doesnt show it. Like i said, you believe what you want, ignorance is bliss and old myths die hard. The rest of us know better.

[Caractacus]

Hey man,
It doesnt have anything to do with making Muhammad Ali or Henry Cooper look good or bad.
What it has to do with is the 21st Century revisionist trying to re-write boxing history.
If only because the facts of the matter dont suite their fancy.

[Caractacus]

[quote="klompton" How many times have you come on here spouting conspiracy theories about fight films when the best you can do is read about them on internet? Still care to go into detail on how there is a million to one chance that quarry/mathis survived despite everything ive told you? r.[/quote]


and BTW How do you know for sure that a video-tape does not exist somewhere in this world
of the Jerry Quarry vrs Buster Mathis fight?
It was shown on the telly both in America and Britain and possibly elesewhere as well.
Perhaps someones olde granddad had used a home video-recorder when the twit of a son stepped
out and went to the pub after video-taping a Doctor Who episode earlier that day.

Man,you should keep an open mind and not be so pessimistic.

[Controversial]

I have read posts on other forums from people claiming to be at the fight, I have no reason to disbelieve them as all their posts talk about old time fights and old fights they were at. One guy didn't even mention the delay and another who claimed to be at both fights even states Cooper stretched the truth about the delay as it was only a few seconds.

[Caractacus]

I have read posts on other forums from people claiming to be at the fight, I have no reason to disbelieve them as all their posts talk about old time fights and old fights they were at. One guy didn't even mention the delay and another who claimed to be at both fights even states Cooper stretched the truth about the delay as it was only a few seconds.

If im not mistaken those indivials also claimed to have been at Woodstock?

[klompton]

Hey man,
It doesnt have anything to do with making Muhammad Ali or Henry Cooper look good or bad.
What it has to do with is the 21st Century revisionist trying to re-write boxing history.
If only because the facts of the matter dont suite their fancy.

Riiight. Just like its 21st century revisionism to actually research Papke-Ketchel 2 and realize Papke never hit Ketchel in the throat before their handshake altering the course of the fight. Just like its 21st centry revisionism to actually read newspaper accounts and see Pep never won a round without throwing a punch. Just like its 21st century revisionsim to read day after accounts which state Mickey Walker went to the hospital and then a hotel room to get his battered features iced by his sparring partners instead of going out and fighting Greb in the street later that night. Like its 21st century revisionism to go back and read and realize the term p4p wasnt actually created for Ray Robinson but had been applied to numerous fighters before him. Just like its 21st century revisionism to state categorically that Joe Jacobs never bellowed into the microphone "WE WUZ ROBBED!" after Schmeling-Sharkey 2 (I have that radio broadcast. He didnt.).

Now, if you can show me where you can squeeze five minutes into the unedited, between rounds footage of Ali-Cooper 1 we can continue this discussion. If you come back here and say "post it on youtube" I can just assume youve never seen it and thus you are talking out of your ass based on not a single first hand day after report or film, in which case you are a damn fool to carry this argument this long.

[Caractacus]

Hey man,

why dont you,SteveO and Evereb just tell us all here the exact running time is
of your copies of the"compleate original and unedited footage" of the BBC broadcast of Clay vrs Cooper I ?

for instance I would be curious to know, what is the very first image that appears on it?
please vid-cap that image and also the very last image of the video-tape you have.

[klompton]

Why? All you need to know is the exact time of the break between rounds and weve told you that. You dont want to accept it. You want to live in fantasy land, so have fun with that.

[SteveO]

I doubt Caractacus will believe it, but here is a link to BBC news regarding the incident:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/16985467