Duran vs Leonard I: 35 Years Later, Duran's Finest Hour

[Counter-puncher]

this is beyond excruciating

[keithmoonhangover]

this is beyond excruciating

I know, it started out as a debate, then it was fun and now I'm done.

[elmersalsa]

Another lie you bring: Duran fought at 140lbs after reliquinshing the lightweight crown. He went straight to welterweight.

Please check Duran's record, come back and tell me how many times Duran fought at 140lbs or above 135lbs before he made the move to welterweight. Thanks in advance.

Duran first fight before he relinquished the crown was Monroe Brooks. He was a welterweight contender. Duran only fought 7 fights at welter.

[elmersalsa]

this is beyond excruciating

I know, it started out as a debate, then it was fun and now I'm done.

It is fun to me. Any other comers? One could not handle the truth. And the other didn't have nothing coming.

Duran, THE BEST!

[palooka]

this is beyond excruciating

I know, it started out as a debate, then it was fun and now I'm done.

I warned you.

[palooka]

this is beyond excruciating

I know, it started out as a debate, then it was fun and now I'm done.

It is fun to me. Any other comers? One could not handle the truth. And the other didn't have nothing coming.

Duran, THE BEST!

Elmer, you've just given people on the B&I the impression you're an outright crank.

[elmersalsa]

It is fun to me. Any other comers? One could not handle the truth. And the other didn't have nothing coming.

Duran, THE BEST!

Elmer, you've just given people on the B&I the impression you're an outright crank.[/quote]
Why?

[palooka]

You've come across as a know it all obsessive who is highly reluctant to even appraise or consider another point of view, also more than a touch defensive.

[elmersalsa]

You've come across as a know it all obsessive who is highly reluctant to even appraise or consider another point of view, also more than a touch defensive.

The others believe that their point of view is stronger. You got two more in here that are more obsessive than I am.

The FACTS are there. One couldn't come with a list of SRL's accomplishments to eclipse Duran's. He couldn't, and I knew that he couldn't. All he could say WEAK OPPOSITION. He probably don't know much about boxing. Every boxer in history is judged by their OWN WEIGHT CLASSIFICATIONS. What is that a fighter should do? Fight King Kong?

The OTHER left because he couldn't handle the truth. He dismissed why the other fighter didn't had other champions smaller than he, challenging him. But it's all good. Duran, to me, is the best fighter IN MY LIFETIME. He WHUPPED Leonard and that's all to it.

[keithmoonhangover]

Mr Elmo,

Whether Duran or Leonard should be ranked higher in the P4P ATG list is purely a matter of opinion. You think Duran, I think Leonard. We disagree, but one thing remains, they were great fighters.

IMO Leonard beat better fighters. Leonard didn't lose in his prime to anyone of Dejesus' level (and yes, I know Dejesus was a fantastic boxer), Leonard avenged his defeat to Duran, much like Duran avenged his defeat to Dejesus. Leonard won Olympic gold. Leonard beating Hagler after one fight in 5 years is an incredible achievement, which IMO nothing on Duran's record matches. Duran beat Leonard fair and square. Leonard won the rematch fair and square and five months is not enough time for Duran to go from his 'best ever performance' to 'past his best'. If Duran didn't train properly, then that's his own fault, in the same way Leonard not fighting the right fight is his fault. In terms of ring skills, Leonard has the edge and he proved that in his win against Tommy Hearns. Leonard really was the complete package.

I know you're reading this and disregarding everything I'm saying and there's a reason for that..... Duran is your favourite fighter (or of them). As a result, you are completely biased. If you don't think you are, then look at how many posters say you are. They are not making it up. You are biased.

I'm not biased towards Leonard in the slightest. He is not one of my favourite fighters. I look at him subjectively, I genuinely do. I look at his skills and his accomplishments and I judge him on them. If Leonard had quit in mid fight, I would feel the same way as I do about Duran doing it.

These are my thoughts on the matter and my last. You will no doubt disagree and that's your opinion but I'll leave you with this.

Leonard fought his heart out in the first fight. In the second Duran quit like a spoilt child because Leonard was giving him a boxing masterclass. That's the difference right there. When the going got tough, Duran quit. When Leonard was being dominated by Hearns in the first fight, did he just stop fighting? No, he summoned up everything he had and turned the fight around.

If you want the last word on the matter, the floor is yours.

KMHO

P.S. One last question. How does Duran's performance and quitting in the rematch effect your rating of him?

[palooka]

I agree with Keith on this one and didn't mean to be rude or nasty, Elmer.

[elmersalsa]

Everybody got their own opinion. Keith has said some good points. In some of his points, I disagree.

First, he accused me of being biased. Ain't Ambling Alp being BIASED with the great Sugar Ray Leonard? Why I cannot be BIASED with the great Roberto Duran? Why Keith, does not accuse Alp of being BIASED?

Second, Alp said that Leonard was a "SUPERIOR" fighter than Duran? My question is in what? Boxing ability? Accomplishments? In what?

If Leonard had the speed, Duran had the punch.
If Leonard was a better outside fighter, Duran was a better inside fighter.
If Leonard beat better fighters, Duran was more dominant as champion.
Both had the heart of a lion. Both had the stamina to go 15 rounds.

But, all Keith can say was "weak opposition" when it comes to Duran's dominance at lightweight... But I THOUGHT that Keith was going to bring Leonard's accomplishments to eclipsed Duran's, and Keith FAILED MISERABLY.
I cannot accept in no where in the world, that Leonard was better. Duran had to jump to other people's weight classes to get a match. In the biggest fight of Leonard's life, HE GOT WHUPPED BY A LIGHTWEIGHT. NO matter how you look at it. The great Mickey Walker beat heavyweights. Does that make him a heavyweight?. It is the same with Duran. A lightweight whupped Leonard, and that's what IRK some people in here. LOOK AT LEONARD'S FACE AFTER THE FIGHT. IT LOOKED LIKE A WHUPPING TO ME.

Then, he says that Leonard beat better opponents. I agree with that. But that is like saying that lady is prettier than the other ladies because of her looks, that is why she's better looking. No! We got to look in all the areas. In all the phases of the spectrum. What about her personality? What about her charm? What about her virtuosity?
Duran had to fight the Benitez, the Hearns, and the Haglers in DIFFERENT WEIGHT CLASSES. THEY WERE NOT FAIR FIGHTS. IN WEIGHT CLASSES WAY FAR, 20 POUNDS OF HIS NATURAL WEIGHT. I didn't see Leonard jumping 20 pounds to fight anybody as good as Hagler or Hearns or Benitez. If they would have beaten Duran AT LEAST, AT LEAST, AT WELTERWEIGHT, AND IN HIS PRIME, THEN, I could consider Leonard as the better fighter in terms of accomplishments. Unforturnately, it did not happened that way.

Third, if we watch closely the first fight, there was nothing that Leonard could do differently to win that fight. Why? Because the way Duran carried himself. He was aware of his surroundings and with great ring generalship, and how he made Leonard miss. He was awesome. When BOTH WERE IN THEIR A GAME, DURAN WHUPPED HIM, FAIR AND SQUARE. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. The best performance that I have ever seen after the great Joe Frazier beating the great Muhammad Ali. The second fight? Leonard CAUGHT DURAN IN AN OFF NIGHT, AND HE KNEW IT. But that was Duran's problem. Not Leonard's. Would Leonard would have won if Duran came the same way like in Montreal? In my opinion, No.

Fourth, Why Duran quit? I don't know. Maybe he was embarrassed. Maybe he knew from the opening bell that he did not had it. Maybe he said in his mind "OK, you won, I don't have it tonight, the crown is yours. I get you next time" The thing about it, unfortunately, there was not a third time around like he thought. It happened 9 years too late. I agree, that Duran is one of the worst SORE LOSERS in my lifetime. He WAS NEVER A GREAT SPORTMANSHIP. Especially, when things were not going his way. Leonard was a better sportman, I give him credit on that one. I DON'T BELIEVE THAT DURAN HAD STOMACH CRAMPS, but then again, I cannot be inside of Duran's stomach to know if that was true. The thing was that he QUIT and that was an UNFORGIVABLE SIN. I give you that. It was something that until this day, I do not condone that. But, he CAME BACK LIKE A REAL CHAMPION AND REDEEMED HIMSELF. And in extraordinary fashion! What fighter had ever come back with such embarrassment like No Mas, and the Hearns decapitation KO and win 2 more titles? Not too many. The great Mike Tyson did not redeemed himself after biting the great Evander Holyfield's ear. The great Sonny Liston did not redeemed himself after losing to the great Ali. Duran redeemed himself.

Fifth, both were great fighters....No doubt about that. Some people have Leonard above Duran. I and other people got Duran above Leonard in p4p rankings. Everybody got their own criteria. But, what Duran did in Montreal? I don't see it being duplicated. Greetings.

[Tomasino]

What's the excuse for Duran being knocked clean out of his boots by Hearns, a Leonard victim? Or being soundly out boxed by Benitez, a Leonard victim? Or the overrated Kirkland Laing beating Duran?

[elmersalsa]

What's the excuse for Duran being knocked clean out of his boots by Hearns, a Leonard victim? Or being soundly out boxed by Benitez, a Leonard victim? Or the overrated Kirkland Laing beating Duran?

Like I said in the before post: Duran fought those guys in a WEIGHT CLASS TOO BIG FOR HIS FRAME. He was also out from his prime, and in his 30s. If they would've beat him at welterweight, and in his prime, then, I give it to them that they were better.

Leonard fought them IN HIS WEIGHT CLASS, IN HIS PRIME, IN HIS 20s, and won.

Duran fighting the great Marvin Hagler is like Leonard fighting the great Bob Foster or Michael Spinks or Matthew Saad Muhammad. You think Leonard wins or last 15 rounds with them? Put Leonard at 32 fighting them. It's a DISASTER

[palooka]

Though Hagler was short for a middleweight, Foster, Spinks and Matthew were all over 6 foot tall.

[Ambling Alp II]

What's the excuse for Duran being knocked clean out of his boots by Hearns, a Leonard victim? Or being soundly out boxed by Benitez, a Leonard victim? Or the overrated Kirkland Laing beating Duran?

There is always an excuse for Duran.
Keith asked elmer earlier how many fights Duran had at over 135 before he moved up to welterweight. I counted them. 28. Then he had 8 fights at welterweight before he fought Leonard. And elmer stills say he was a lightweight when he fought Leonard.
Duran actually had more fights where he weighed over 135 when he fought Leonard than Leonard had total fights! And elmer still considers him a lightweight.

I think it's fair to argue that Duran was out of his depth moving up to middleweight to fight Hagler. But 147 and 154 with all that time to grow into the weight? Come on.

elmer always says that Leonard fought a lightweight when he fought Duran.
Yet he never says Hagler fought a welterweight when he fought Leonard.
He loves Monzon. He never says Monzon fought a welterweight when he fought Griffith, or a Jr Middleweight when he fought Benvenuti.

Total bias.

[keithmoonhangover]

Elmo I repeat. How does Duran's performance and quitting in the rematch effect your rating of him?

[palooka]

Elmo I repeat. How does Duran's performance and quitting in the rematch effect your rating of him?

He said it was unforgivable but that he redeemed himself afterwards by winning more titles.

[keithmoonhangover]

Elmo I repeat. How does Duran's performance and quitting in the rematch effect your rating of him?

He said it was unforgivable but that he redeemed himself afterwards by winning more titles.

Not you, the nutter.

[palooka]

Elmo I repeat. How does Duran's performance and quitting in the rematch effect your rating of him?

He said it was unforgivable but that he redeemed himself afterwards by winning more titles.

Not you, the nutter.

get ready then...

[elmersalsa]

Elmo I repeat. How does Duran's performance and quitting in the rematch effect your rating of him?

I thought that you have finished?
Welcome back
It was BOXING'S GREATEST SIN. BUT, HE REDEEMED HIMSELF. If he would've never come back the way he did, Duran probably wouldn't be in the top 20 atg status
But, he had to come back, and he did it in SPECTACULAR FASHION.

[keithmoonhangover]

Elmo I repeat. How does Duran's performance and quitting in the rematch effect your rating of him?

I thought that you have finished?
Welcome back
It was BOXING'S GREATEST SIN. BUT, HE REDEEMED HIMSELF. If he would've never come back the way he did, Duran probably wouldn't be in the top 20 atg status
But, he had to come back, and he did it in SPECTACULAR FASHION.

Are you saying that because he redeemed himself, you ignore the rematch?

[elmersalsa]

We as boxing fans, especially Duran's, COULD NEVER FORGET the No Mas Match. Until this day, as a fan of his, it hurts. We cannot dismiss that horrible night.

But, Duran never hid away. He KNEW that he had to redeemed himself, which he did. Not once, but twice.

Many fighters went to low points like these. Floyd Patterson knew that he had to come back when he lost to Ingemar Johansson.

The great Sonny Liston did not. Neither the great Mike Tyson when he did THE BITE OF THE CENTURY.
Some redeemed, and some didn't.

Duran did it and reestablished himself. That is THE MARK OF A TRUE AND GREAT CHAMPION

SEE, the No Mas taught me lots of things in life. When I see young bucks depressed of a BIG MISTAKE they made, I tell them sometimes about the Duran's No Mas story. That there is a second chance in life, as long that you are healthy and breathing. No matter what. It's the same concept I use with the story of King David and Bathsheba. How did he made a GRIEVOUS and UNFORGIVABLE SIN. But, he redeemed himself, and became more righteous, and a better man than before.

THE NO MAS NOT ONLY MADE DURAN A LARGER THAN LIFE boxer after that, but, a better man. He had to. There was no other way.

[keithmoonhangover]

We as boxing fans, especially Duran's, COULD NEVER FORGET the No Mas Match. Until this day, as a fan of his, it hurts. We cannot dismiss that horrible night.

I'm not asking you as a Duran fan, I'm asking you as an unbiased boxing observer and you still haven't answered my question.

[elmersalsa]

Elmo I repeat. How does Duran's performance and quitting in the rematch effect your rating of him?

I thought that you have finished?
Welcome back
It was BOXING'S GREATEST SIN. BUT, HE REDEEMED HIMSELF. If he would've never come back the way he did, Duran probably wouldn't be in the top 20 atg status
But, he had to come back, and he did it in SPECTACULAR FASHION.

Are you saying that because he redeemed himself, you ignore the rematch?

I don't ignore the rematch.