Did Hagler ever REALLY lose.

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 10 Dec 2002, 13:04

Hagler's career record includes 3 losses and 2 draws. I saw his loss to Leonard and I thought he won 2 minutes of almost every round the judges scored for Leonard. Bad call IMO.

Hagler was robbed in his first attempt at the middleweight title against Antoufermo in a fight the judges scored a draw. Bad call IMO.

I went to the Hagler-Seales fight in Seattle. Hagler won easy but the hometown judges scored it a draw. This decision was so bad the pro Seales crowd booed the decision and not because they thought Seales won. Bad call IMO

That just leaves Hagler's losses to Watts and Monroe. Both Philadelphia fighters. Both fights in Philadelphia. Did anyone here see these fights? Did Hagler really lose? Should Hagler's record have been perfect?

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 10 Dec 2002, 14:32

I've thought about this myself. The fights with Watts and Monroe could have gone to Hagler, from what I've read, though I didn't see them. The take on the fights you mention are true,so, with a slight difference in judging a few rounds TOTAL Hagler could very well have retired as a fighter who never lost.

zurdo · Post by **zurdo** » 10 Dec 2002, 21:55

I didn't see the fight but...I've read that Haglers loss to "the Worm" was indeed a fair decision. It was one of those "learning experiances" that served to make Marvin a better fighter..His two subsequent fights with Monroe would seem to bear this out.

The loss to Watts was widely regarded as a hometown job..

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 11 Dec 2002, 02:25

Thanks Zurdo..the fog lifts, and now I seem to recall that at the time of the first fight that Willie the Worm was considered a top fighter and I am probably thinking of the later fights, which was when Hagler was making his own reputation. no doubt I have a write up somewhere in my stacks of old magazines, but you seem to have a good recall so I'll take your memory of it.

wouter · Post by **wouter** » 11 Dec 2002, 09:33

I never saw the Antuofermo fight, but from what I've read a draw seemed to be a fair verdict

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 11 Dec 2002, 10:17

I have always been a fan of Hagler so that may have clouded my judgement. The fight was televised in the USA and at the time I thought the Antoufermo decision was horrible.

Anyway with what Zurdo and Jaclem say about Monroe, Hagler did'nt really win em all. There are also many people who think Leonard deserved his win.

wsbuf · Post by **wsbuf** » 11 Dec 2002, 11:37

I remember watching the Antuofermo fight live on TV. Even though I wanted Vito to win, he lucked out with a draw decision.

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 17 Mar 2003, 07:52

terap..You really do seem to hold a minority opinion when it comes to Hagler. Most knowledgable boxing people hold him in much higher regard than you. You even find fault in fights that he won....Well If you are going to put Hagler down you would have to find fault in the fights he won because he basically won them all.

One fault I can find about Hagler is that he often fought his opponents fight. Choosing to fight their style of fighting instead of what would work best. And even then he still always won.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 17 Mar 2003, 11:07

on a completely pointless note (the kind in which overhand right specialises in), bobby watts was jimmy youngs little cousin.

thankyou.

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 17 Mar 2003, 12:15

terap...Most fighters who thoroughly dominate a division for a decade are usually considered somewhat better than mediocre. I will say this even though I disagree with many of your positions, you have almost single handedly brought this forum back to life.

btw- I beat the crap out of my sister and even beat up a couple of guys in the ring and Hagler is one of the top 5 middleweights no matter how you cut it.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 17 Mar 2003, 12:42

..and, as I understand it, Tomato's sister had at least a five pound edge in weight.

matador · Post by **matador** » 21 Mar 2003, 14:19

yo terap,
before u start hating on emmanual steward so much about overtraining hearns, consider: steward turned hearns from an average talent w/ little punching power to one of the most devastating punchers in the modern boxing era. hearns is among boxing history's elite thanks to steward.

now about the overtraining:
steward KNEW that hearns was being overtrained and he urged hearns to change his training habits prior to the leanard fight. the problem was, hearns brought new people into his camp before the leaonard fight and THEY were responsible for the overtraining. steward was kind of ignored by hearns and this caused a fallout between hearns and steward. also, steward advised hearns not to take the hagler fight because he knew he wasn't 100%

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 21 Aug 2006, 18:09

Here are some interesting takes on Marvin..... Terap and Tomato Can having a give and take a few years ago.

....Willie Monroe Beat Hagler just as straightforwardly as you can get based on feedback I've gotten from at least two people who saw the fight. However it clearly was a learning experience and Hagler improved. Monroe on the other hand began to decline at that point and they found each other on opposite ends of their personal "bell curves" later on. And though Hagler did improve it was nowhere near enough to be able to overcome what he would have on his hands if Monzon stepped into the ring with him.

For the record, Terap is a bit too anti-Hagler for my sensibilities but that does not mean to say I think Hagler would beat Monzon by any stretch of the imagination.

Monzon would just stay too cool and calculating and with each round begin to develop better and better 3 minute scenarios, improving his work with each round as he often did with his best opponents. Hagler's workrate would not be a problem for Monzon's energy level. If there was any need for a second fight in their primes Monzon would come in with an even clearer solution where as Hagler would simply attempt to fight Monzon's fight....which would be like trying to fight a ghost since Monzon would simply stay more than one step ahead of him mentally.

.....this is admittedly the minority viewpoint here. But I would bet heavily on this and probably get obscenely favorable odds based on public sentiment....which always makes the collection process even sweeter.

If Leonard could sneak past Hagler, Monzon would walk right in the front door take what he wanted and walk out.....even in Hagler's prime.

kick asner · Post by **kick asner** » 21 Aug 2006, 18:42

BoxBuzz wrote:Here are some interesting takes on Marvin Terap and Tomato Can having a give and take a few years ago.

....Willie Monroe Beat Hagler just as straightforwardly as you can get based on feedback I've gotten from at least two people who saw the fight. However it clearly was a learning experience and Hagler improved. Monroe on the other hand began to decline at that point and they found each other on opposite ends of their personal "bell curves" later on. And though Hagler did improve it was nowhere near enough to be able to overcome what he would have on his hands if Monzon stepped into the ring with him.

For the record, Terap is a bit too anti-Hagler for my sensibilities but that does not mean to say I think Hagler would beat Monzon by any stretch of the imagination.

Monzon would just stay too cool and calculating and with each round begin to develop better and better 3 minute scenarios, improving his work with each round as he often did with his best opponents. Hagler's workrate would not be a problem for Monzon's energy level. If there was any need for a second fight in their primes Monzon would come in with an even clearer solution where as Hagler would simply attempt to fight Monzon's fight....which would be like trying to fight a ghost since Monzon would simply stay more than one step ahead of him mentally.

.....this is admittedly the minority viewpoint here. But I would bet heavily on this and probably get obscenely favorable odds based on public sentiment....which always makes the collection process even sweeter.

If Leonard could sneak past Hagler, Monzon would walk right in the front door take what he wanted and walk out.....even in Hagler's prime.

Much to you're credit Buzz I have seen you admit to being wrong, but when you think you are right you are one relentless guy.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 21 Aug 2006, 19:10

I like both fighters, I just have a "minority viewpoint" on who would win this one.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 21 Aug 2006, 20:19

....when i ckicked on my "notify" announcement i got the message that this topic didn't exist....yet when i went to the boxers of the past forum i found it. however...when i clicked on page 2 got the "doesn't exist" message again.

anybody there able to clear this up?

whenver i see boxbuzz and monzon mentioned in the same post i suspect a conspiracy to keep me from expressing my opinion, so unless i hear otherwise i'll just assume that is the cause.